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    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    Quote:
    skazzy said:
    What about all the other tests done by dozens of other motoring publications where the GTR still proved be faster around the track then the 911TT? Are those also false?



    No I would even expect that Sportauto should lap the NBR faster on the GTR than on the 997TT. However, please keep in mind that the 997TT did the NBR in 7.52 (latest version). If the GTR does the NBR in (let's say) 7.45 it is faster than the 997TT. Still, the 7.29 are world's apart from 7.45...

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    Quote:
    95jersey said:
    The GTR finally showed up at a amatuer NASA race in TTS preppared. The car had Hoosier A6 race tires, which are the stickiest R compounds available on the market (so no arguments about tire grip). Here is how it placed. Not only couldn't pass a Z06, but couldn't beat a preppared C5 generation Corvette. The driver was a very experienced instructor for NASA, so no driver issues as well.

    TTS Last session
    1 222 Geffrey Sawtelle 1:33.096 Chevrolet Corvette 2003
    2 2 Jared McGillicuddy 1:33.274 Chevrolet Corvette 2002
    3 730 Bobby Fischer 1:36.391 Cadillac CTS-V 2005
    4 121 William Taylor 1:36.871 Nissan GT-R 2009
    5 86 Tim Dorsch 1:41.524 Ford Mustang 1986



    Yeah that is good and all, but a GT-R also won Targa West in Australia last month against factory fielded GT2...

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    Quote:
    WAY said:
    Quote:
    95jersey said:
    The GTR finally showed up at a amatuer NASA race in TTS preppared. The car had Hoosier A6 race tires, which are the stickiest R compounds available on the market (so no arguments about tire grip). Here is how it placed. Not only couldn't pass a Z06, but couldn't beat a preppared C5 generation Corvette. The driver was a very experienced instructor for NASA, so no driver issues as well.

    TTS Last session
    1 222 Geffrey Sawtelle 1:33.096 Chevrolet Corvette 2003
    2 2 Jared McGillicuddy 1:33.274 Chevrolet Corvette 2002
    3 730 Bobby Fischer 1:36.391 Cadillac CTS-V 2005
    4 121 William Taylor 1:36.871 Nissan GT-R 2009
    5 86 Tim Dorsch 1:41.524 Ford Mustang 1986



    Yeah that is good and all, but a GT-R also won Targa West in Australia last month against factory fielded GT2...



    That was not a track race but a cross-country rallye... I can recall the video you posted.

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    The link does not work for me so I have no idea as to what Porsche "found".

    But I do have a question. Given that the GT-R is directly competing with Porsche, why should we believe what Porsche has to say or found?

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    Quote:
    WAY said:
    Quote:
    95jersey said:
    The GTR finally showed up at a amatuer NASA race in TTS preppared. The car had Hoosier A6 race tires, which are the stickiest R compounds available on the market (so no arguments about tire grip). Here is how it placed. Not only couldn't pass a Z06, but couldn't beat a preppared C5 generation Corvette. The driver was a very experienced instructor for NASA, so no driver issues as well.

    TTS Last session
    1 222 Geffrey Sawtelle 1:33.096 Chevrolet Corvette 2003
    2 2 Jared McGillicuddy 1:33.274 Chevrolet Corvette 2002
    3 730 Bobby Fischer 1:36.391 Cadillac CTS-V 2005
    4 121 William Taylor 1:36.871 Nissan GT-R 2009
    5 86 Tim Dorsch 1:41.524 Ford Mustang 1986



    Yeah that is good and all, but a GT-R also won Targa West in Australia last month against factory fielded GT2...




    The factory has not fielded the 997 GT2 road car in any competitive events.

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Please explain. The GT2 NBR time has been verified by Sportauto. There is no doubt about the NBR time of the GT2...



    You used the laptimes of the GT2 to prove that claims from Porsche are trustworthy (specifically the one about Nissan).

    I used the laptimes of the Turbo to show that sometimes that isn't the case.

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    The link does not work for me so I have no idea as to what Porsche "found".

    But I do have a question. Given that the GT-R is directly competing with Porsche, why should we believe what Porsche has to say or found?



    What Porsche says is compatible with our speculations/earlier statements re. the the GTR

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    Quote:
    fritz said:
    Quote:
    WAY said:
    Quote:
    95jersey said:
    The GTR finally showed up at a amatuer NASA race in TTS preppared. The car had Hoosier A6 race tires, which are the stickiest R compounds available on the market (so no arguments about tire grip). Here is how it placed. Not only couldn't pass a Z06, but couldn't beat a preppared C5 generation Corvette. The driver was a very experienced instructor for NASA, so no driver issues as well.

    TTS Last session
    1 222 Geffrey Sawtelle 1:33.096 Chevrolet Corvette 2003
    2 2 Jared McGillicuddy 1:33.274 Chevrolet Corvette 2002
    3 730 Bobby Fischer 1:36.391 Cadillac CTS-V 2005
    4 121 William Taylor 1:36.871 Nissan GT-R 2009
    5 86 Tim Dorsch 1:41.524 Ford Mustang 1986



    Yeah that is good and all, but a GT-R also won Targa West in Australia last month against factory fielded GT2...




    The factory has not fielded the 997 GT2 road car in any competitive events.



    I should clarify what I meant here. My understanding is that the car is fielded by Porsche Australia, which is fully owned by Porsche AG. The team that supported it is the same team that maintains and supports the Carrera Cup cars.

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    WAY said:
    Quote:
    95jersey said:
    The GTR finally showed up at a amatuer NASA race in TTS preppared. The car had Hoosier A6 race tires, which are the stickiest R compounds available on the market (so no arguments about tire grip). Here is how it placed. Not only couldn't pass a Z06, but couldn't beat a preppared C5 generation Corvette. The driver was a very experienced instructor for NASA, so no driver issues as well.

    TTS Last session
    1 222 Geffrey Sawtelle 1:33.096 Chevrolet Corvette 2003
    2 2 Jared McGillicuddy 1:33.274 Chevrolet Corvette 2002
    3 730 Bobby Fischer 1:36.391 Cadillac CTS-V 2005
    4 121 William Taylor 1:36.871 Nissan GT-R 2009
    5 86 Tim Dorsch 1:41.524 Ford Mustang 1986



    Yeah that is good and all, but a GT-R also won Targa West in Australia last month against factory fielded GT2...



    That was not a track race but a cross-country rallye... I can recall the video you posted.



    You are 100% correct.

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    Quote:
    WAY said:
    Quote:
    fritz said:
    Quote:
    WAY said:
    Yeah that is good and all, but a GT-R also won Targa West in Australia last month against factory fielded GT2...




    The factory has not fielded the 997 GT2 road car in any competitive events.



    I should clarify what I meant here. My understanding is that the car is fielded by Porsche Australia, which is fully owned by Porsche AG. The team that supported it is the same team that maintains and supports the Carrera Cup cars.



    I'd be surprised if Porsche Australia has a motor racing team, so am more inclined to think that the correct understanding would be that the Carrera Cup team fielded a 997 GT2 road car in this rally, maybe with some moral and/or financial support from Porsche Australia.

    I'm not trying to start an excercise in semantics here; I just think that since Porsche has not had any factory involvement in any motorsport activities with either the 996 or 997 GT2 models here in Europe, it would be extremely unlikely that it would suddenly get involved in some round-the-houses race on the other side of the world. Porsche is a much too tightly-run operation these days to do that sort of thing on an ad hoc basis.

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    Quote:
    fritz said:
    Quote:
    WAY said:
    Quote:
    fritz said:
    Quote:
    WAY said:
    Yeah that is good and all, but a GT-R also won Targa West in Australia last month against factory fielded GT2...




    The factory has not fielded the 997 GT2 road car in any competitive events.



    I should clarify what I meant here. My understanding is that the car is fielded by Porsche Australia, which is fully owned by Porsche AG. The team that supported it is the same team that maintains and supports the Carrera Cup cars.



    I'd be surprised if Porsche Australia has a motor racing team, so am more inclined to think that the correct understanding would be that the Carrera Cup team fielded a 997 GT2 road car in this rally, maybe with some moral and/or financial support from Porsche Australia.

    I'm not trying to start an excercise in semantics here; I just think that since Porsche has not had any factory involvement in any motorsport activities with either the 996 or 997 GT2 models here in Europe, it would be extremely unlikely that it would suddenly get involved in some round-the-houses race on the other side of the world. Porsche is a much too tightly-run operation these days to do that sort of thing on an ad hoc basis.



    No need to worry. This video referred to above shows a cross-country rallye. The GT2 has clearly not been developed for rallyes but for races on the track...

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    The GT-R is a Nissan! A good one at that but nothing more.

    I don't remember where i saw it (maybe rennteam) but they did a true track race and the GTR got owned after like 10 laps or so cause the front tires were done. it's heavy and it understeers like a boat!

    Hopefully the GT-R hype is finally over.. for those who are still in love go buy one and find out the hard way.

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    It will be interesting to see how this all turns out, I would be surprised if Nissan dont respond in some way.

    Whether you believe Nissan's claims or not. I am surprised Porsche have commented in this official manner. Almost seems churlish and it says a lot about the impact the GTR has had on the motoring industry.

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    The fact of the matter is that this is good for consumers. This pushes PAG to excel and that is good.

    I'm surprised PAG did this themselves and not through a proxy.

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    What Porsche says is compatible with our speculations/earlier statements re. the the GTR



    That's really surprising considering that this is a Porsche forum.

    Anyway, what's your opinion about the difference between the GT2 and Turbo on the Nurburgring?

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    Quote:
    Walter said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    What Porsche says is compatible with our speculations/earlier statements re. the the GTR



    That's really surprising considering that this is a Porsche forum.

    Anyway, what's your opinion about the difference between the GT2 and Turbo on the Nurburgring?



    This is not a Porsche forum. I, for example, drive a Ferrari and a Porsche, several other members do ownseveral brands as well. In addition to what we own we test drive many other sportscars and have an educated opinion on what the market offers.

    Regarding the NBR performance of GT2 and 997TT: I think the problem of the 997TT is its PTM system: the variable allocation of power between front/rear axle seems to result in an unpredictable switch from understeer to oversteer. While this is not a big issue on typical GP tracks it appears to be a problem on complex and difficult tracks like the NBR NS. Other brands face similar problems, BTW. For example, the LP560-4 seems to suffer from a very similar problem.

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    fritz said:
    I'm not trying to start an excercise in semantics here; I just think that since Porsche has not had any factory involvement in any motorsport activities with either the 996 or 997 GT2 models here in Europe, it would be extremely unlikely that it would suddenly get involved in some round-the-houses race on the other side of the world. Porsche is a much too tightly-run operation these days to do that sort of thing on an ad hoc basis.



    No need to worry. This video referred to above shows a cross-country rallye. The GT2 has clearly not been developed for rallyes but for races on the track...



    Do I look worried?

    The 997 GT2 was in fact NOT developed specifically for track racing. It was developed as a road car with track-capability and has never been raced by the factory.
    And this was the only reason I was prompted to jump in when I read the reference to it being "factory-entered".

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    1. I am not a GTR lover - it is not my style.
    2. I am a multiple Porsche owner.
    3. I am astonished by those who discount all the independent tests of the GTR where is always laps faster than the 997 Turbo.
    4. Why not appreciate the outstanding performance of the GTR as documented in countless independent tests (even if it is not your style)? Insecurity, perhaps?
    5. At least the GTR seems to be a wake-up call for Porsche.

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    Markus,
    NOT so sure about LP560-4 or R8. Why? First, test example of LP560-4 that SA used was without optional Sport setup. Second, in Alain Prost hands(quattroroute Vairano test) LP560-4 was faster then 997GT2 and A.Prost liked it more then GT2.

    In next issue of SA will be LP560-4 Supertest and you will see some clarification. Both LP560-4 and R8 use visco AWD setup(that is pretty close to old 996TT setup) with rear LSD.

    997TT suffers from other problem-not so good traction at all. Here is the problem of PTM setup. It is too live at the rear. Just one thing-Porsche costumers wanted it that way since most of them claimed that 996TT is too safe... PTM is indeed very strange in setup since in last Auto Bild comparison test both Lp560-4 and R8 were much, much faster on wet handling test track then 997.2C4S...

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    Markus,
    NOT so sure about LP560-4 or R8. Why? First, test example of LP560-4 that SA used was without optional Sport setup. Second, in Alain Prost hands(quattroroute Vairano test) LP560-4 was faster then 997GT2 and A.Prost liked it more then GT2.

    In next issue of SA will be LP560-4 Supertest and you will see some clarification. Both LP560-4 and R8 use visco AWD setup(that is pretty close to old 996TT setup) with rear LSD.

    997TT suffers from other problem-not so good traction at all. Here is the problem of PTM setup. It is too live at the rear. Just one thing-Porsche costumers wanted it that way since most of them claimed that 996TT is too safe... PTM is indeed very strange in setup since in last Auto Bild comparison test both Lp560-4 and R8 were much, much faster on wet handling test track then 997.2C4S...



    In the QR test you mention the GT2 was faster than the LP560-4 (same as Sportauto result)

    However, I see your point regarding the PTM/traction issues...

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    Markus,
    NOT so sure about LP560-4 or R8. Why? First, test example of LP560-4 that SA used was without optional Sport setup. Second, in Alain Prost hands(quattroroute Vairano test) LP560-4 was faster then 997GT2 and A.Prost liked it more then GT2.

    In next issue of SA will be LP560-4 Supertest and you will see some clarification. Both LP560-4 and R8 use visco AWD setup(that is pretty close to old 996TT setup) with rear LSD.

    997TT suffers from other problem-not so good traction at all. Here is the problem of PTM setup. It is too live at the rear. Just one thing-Porsche costumers wanted it that way since most of them claimed that 996TT is too safe... PTM is indeed very strange in setup since in last Auto Bild comparison test both Lp560-4 and R8 were much, much faster on wet handling test track then 997.2C4S...



    Yes. And many Ring regulars dump their PTM setups for the classical visco-clutch type.

    The first sign of this was when RC visited a driver safety training school and was essentially made to look like an amateur in front of the class when the car didn't respond at all on a wet surface.

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    Yes, with normal setup LP560-4 is 0,19s(!!) slower on Variano then 997 GT2. BUT, with Sport setup Lp560-4 is almost 0.7s faster then 997 Gt2 as you will see in future issue of QR...

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Regarding the NBR performance of GT2 and 997TT: I think the problem of the 997TT is its PTM system: the variable allocation of power between front/rear axle seems to result in an unpredictable switch from understeer to oversteer. While this is not a big issue on typical GP tracks it appears to be a problem on complex and difficult tracks like the NBR NS. Other brands face similar problems, BTW. For example, the LP560-4 seems to suffer from a very similar problem.



    So it's not a particularly good car? Or maybe it's the GT2 that fails because with 50hp and 100kg advantage I would believe that it could be a bit more than 4 seconds faster?

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    Quote:
    AUM said:
    1. I am not a GTR lover - it is not my style.
    2. I am a multiple Porsche owner.
    3. I am astonished by those who discount all the independent tests of the GTR where is always laps faster than the 997 Turbo.
    4. Why not appreciate the outstanding performance of the GTR as documented in countless independent tests (even if it is not your style)? Insecurity, perhaps?
    5. At least the GTR seems to be a wake-up call for Porsche.



    The only thing that is being talked about here is that Nissan lied about their NBR lap time, period. You say why not appreciate the performance of the GTR? Is anybody saying that the GTR is a turtle?... I say why appreciate a false claim as true? because that is what it is if you think a customer spec GT-R in street tires lapped the ring in 7:29 (much less the Euro-spec I reckon).

    Its not about the general performance of the GT-R, its about its NBR performance that we are discussing, and real data vs propaganda. There is a difference.

    That doens't mean the GT-R is slow, I'm sure it will still achieve a very good NBR lap time, but one that is realistic to its specifications, no more no less.

    More so, the claim was so outrageous that most of the people used to studying NBR lap times saw it as stupidly imposible and that is what is was expressed in the NBR & GT-R threads, others fell for the hype like a midnight info-mercial and dispatched as anyone saying the Nissan was lying as anti-GTR and pro-Porsche, I couldn't care less. I'm just waiting for the SA Supertest to put the sad 7:29 marketing story in its grave.

    Unfortunately I don't think Nissan will hurry to get the Euro-spec GT-R ready anytime soon because of this, and since the GT-R is not introduced by Nissan to sell thousands for profit but rather to sell low numbers at a loss (hence its price, who would buy a Nissan GT-R for 100k...) for a needed company image build-up, they don't have to hurry with the Euro-Spec.

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    Quote:
    Walter said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Regarding the NBR performance of GT2 and 997TT: I think the problem of the 997TT is its PTM system: the variable allocation of power between front/rear axle seems to result in an unpredictable switch from understeer to oversteer. While this is not a big issue on typical GP tracks it appears to be a problem on complex and difficult tracks like the NBR NS. Other brands face similar problems, BTW. For example, the LP560-4 seems to suffer from a very similar problem.



    So it's not a particularly good car? Or maybe it's the GT2 that fails because with 50hp and 100kg advantage I would believe that it could be a bit more than 4 seconds faster?



    You are speaking in mysteries

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    Yes, with normal setup LP560-4 is 0,19s(!!) slower on Variano then 997 GT2. BUT, with Sport setup Lp560-4 is almost 0.7s faster then 997 Gt2 as you will see in future issue of QR...



    Kreso, if you ask me the 560-4 will be slower than the GT2 in 99% of the cases (if not tested by an Italian magazine...). 560-4 is too heavy, has AWD... Just look at the SportAuto results.

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    Quote:
    AUM said:
    1. I am not a GTR lover - it is not my style.
    2. I am a multiple Porsche owner.
    3. I am astonished by those who discount all the independent tests of the GTR where is always laps faster than the 997 Turbo.
    4. Why not appreciate the outstanding performance of the GTR as documented in countless independent tests (even if it is not your style)? Insecurity, perhaps?
    5. At least the GTR seems to be a wake-up call for Porsche.



    The only thing that is being talked about here is that Nissan lied about their NBR lap time, period. You say why not appreciate the performance of the GTR? Is anybody saying that the GTR is a turtle?... I say why appreciate a false claim as true? because that is what it is if you think a customer spec GT-R in street tires lapped the ring in 7:29 (much less the Euro-spec I reckon).

    Its not about the general performance of the GT-R, its about its NBR performance that we are discussing, and real data vs propaganda. There is a difference.

    That doens't mean the GT-R is slow, I'm sure it will still achieve a very good NBR lap time, but one that is realistic to its specifications, no more no less.

    More so, the claim was so outrageous that most of the people used to studying NBR lap times saw it as stupidly imposible and that is what is was expressed in the NBR & GT-R threads, others fell for the hype like a midnight info-mercial and dispatched as anyone saying the Nissan was lying as anti-GTR and pro-Porsche, I couldn't care less. I'm just waiting for the SA Supertest to put the sad 7:29 marketing story in its grave.

    Unfortunately I don't think Nissan will hurry to get the Euro-spec GT-R ready anytime soon because of this, and since the GT-R is not introduced by Nissan to sell thousands for profit but rather to sell low numbers at a loss (hence its price, who would buy a Nissan GT-R for 100k...) for a needed company image build-up, they don't have to hurry with the Euro-Spec.



    100% correct

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    Let's cut the BS.

    (un)Official Porsche Ring times:

    997TT 7.40min(Cups)
    997GT2 7.32min(Cups)

    Sport Auto Supertest Ring times:

    997TT(MY07,manual, LSD, PCCB) 7.52min(Cups)
    997GT2 7.33min(Cups)

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    Let's cut the BS.

    (un)Official Porsche Ring times:

    997TT 7.40min(Cups)
    997GT2 7.32min(Cups)

    Sport Auto Supertest Ring times:

    997TT(MY07,manual, LSD, PCCB) 7.52min(Cups)
    997GT2 7.33min(Cups)





    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    Its not about the general performance of the GT-R, its about its NBR performance that we are discussing, and real data vs propaganda. There is a difference.



    Real data?

     
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