Crown

noone1:

R8 looks as much like a TT as GT3 RS looks like a Boxster Coupe.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

The R8 is not a TT...but none are pretty. 

Yearly production figure is interesting and show how rare is’this Car in the world. 

GT Lover, Porsche fan

991.2 GT3 arriving, 991 GT3 2014(sold)

Cayenne GTS 2014

the-missile:

The R8 is not a TT...but none are pretty. 

Actually, I like both (no surprise here... )  but I wouldn't get the TT, it reminds me a bit too much of the VW Beetle, can't help it. Even the latest version is a bit too "bloated" and should be a tiny bit flatter (which would probably make it look too close to the R8 then). I like the RS3 though, very stealth.

Yearly production figure is interesting and show how rare is’this Car in the world. 

Rare? Yes. Still not reflected in resale value though (compared to other cars in this segment).

This could change once the car isn't available anymore...or the value tanks completely because nobody wants a gas guzzler with a V10 engine. Time will tell...but the V10 engine is reliable and bullet proof (my mechanic told me that he never had a new R8 or Huracan with a broken engine, like...never.) and parts availability should also be OK for many years to come.

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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

the-missile:

The R8 is not a TT...but none are pretty. 

Yearly production figure is interesting and show how rare is’this Car in the world. 

Sales volume is slightly greater than that of a Lamborghini Huracan.  Audi really needed a lower priced entry model with a smaller motor, to increase volume.  That said, Audi has yet to officially state it won’t build a replacement car, it only won’t build a R8.  Looking at Audi’s race car naming convention as well as its transition to EVs, one believes an electric R18, for example, will replace the R8, when the time comes. 

CGX car nut:

the-missile:

The R8 is not a TT...but none are pretty. 

Yearly production figure is interesting and show how rare is’this Car in the world. 

Sales volume is slightly greater than that of a Lamborghini Huracan.  Audi really needed a lower priced entry model with a smaller motor, to increase volume.  That said, Audi has yet to officially state it won’t build a replacement car, it only won’t build a R8.  Looking at Audi’s race car naming convention as well as its transition to EVs, one believes an electric R18, for example, will replace the R8, when the time comes. 

There is a lot going on at VW Group right now, many decisions about new models are re-considered and we may have a surprise here and there, pleasant and unpleasant ones. I don't think the R8 will survive though (too many signs indicate it won't) but this opens a new door for a Porsche 960, so... 

A German car magazine just recently re-published the rumor that a R8 V6 Biturbo (2.9 l, same as Panamera or RS5) with around 500 hp will be presented this year as an entry level model but this rumor is old and I'm not sure it will happen. Maybe coming with the facelift...who knows?! 

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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

How in the hell is Porsche going to add a 960 model when they can't meet GT demand? They are scheduled to close the line for three weeks in April and three months during the summer to retool for the 992. Added another model is beyond their capacity.

Christian, the R8 looks similar (not the same) to the TT. No getting around it. More importantly, it doesn't look like sport car. This gets back to branding and VW failure to do an adequate job styling, producing and selling this car.

You have your way. I have my way. As for the correct way and the only way, it does not exist.

nberry:

How in the hell is Porsche going to add a 960 model when they can't meet GT demand? They are scheduled to close the line for three weeks in April and three months during the summer to retool for the 992. Added another model is beyond their capacity.

Christian, the R8 looks similar (not the same) to the TT. No getting around it. More importantly, it doesn't look like sport car. This gets back to branding and VW failure to do an adequate job styling, producing and selling this car.

The 911/718 capacity at Zuffenhausen is max-ed out, doesn't mean they can't build another model somewhere else. 

CGT was built in Leipzig after all. And there are TONS of room around Leipzig to expand.

As for the GT demand, mostly it was artificially inflated by the dealers in the USA, take those greedy US dealers out of the equation and let PCNA alone take the orders, and see the demand curve flattens out. Secondary was the fact that the rest of the line up had all gone to turbo engines and they simply can't build enough NA engines.

BUT, remember, all the competition in the mid engine market are all turbo-ed, saved the Huracan. Using the VAG corporate 4.0L TT V8 is almost a no brainer decision, and that engine they can make plenty, and that engine is already making 650HP in Urus trim. 

The next 960 can easily share the platform with the next Huracan, especially with Audi out of the equation. Audi needs to get back to basics and be the Mercedes BMW fighter, with the R8 they are stuck in no mans land, it was and still is a car perceived as a poor man's Gallardo/Huracan no matter how good it is. Audi needs to do a proper AMG GT fighter, leave the exotic game to the exotic marque with the VAG group. Before, Piech's ego turned Audi into a brand that he wants to have claws into every nooks and wanted to trump Porsche the brand, and lost it's identity in the process. 

The original R8 sold well. The reason was A) the design was fresh and B) the price was low. The current R8 is no longer a "new" design and the price is much higher for the Plus than was for the first V10.

Whoopsy:

nberry:

How in the hell is Porsche going to add a 960 model when they can't meet GT demand? They are scheduled to close the line for three weeks in April and three months during the summer to retool for the 992. Added another model is beyond their capacity.

Christian, the R8 looks similar (not the same) to the TT. No getting around it. More importantly, it doesn't look like sport car. This gets back to branding and VW failure to do an adequate job styling, producing and selling this car.

 

The 911/718 capacity at Zuffenhausen is max-ed out, doesn't mean they can't build another model somewhere else. 

CGT was built in Leipzig after all. And there are TONS of room around Leipzig to expand.

As for the GT demand, mostly it was artificially inflated by the dealers in the USA, take those greedy US dealers out of the equation and let PCNA alone take the orders, and see the demand curve flattens out. Secondary was the fact that the rest of the line up had all gone to turbo engines and they simply can't build enough NA engines.

BUT, remember, all the competition in the mid engine market are all turbo-ed, saved the Huracan. Using the VAG corporate 4.0L TT V8 is almost a no brainer decision, and that engine they can make plenty, and that engine is already making 650HP in Urus trim. 

The next 960 can easily share the platform with the next Huracan, especially with Audi out of the equation. Audi needs to get back to basics and be the Mercedes BMW fighter, with the R8 they are stuck in no mans land, it was and still is a car perceived as a poor man's Gallardo/Huracan no matter how good it is. Audi needs to do a proper AMG GT fighter, leave the exotic game to the exotic marque with the VAG group. Before, Piech's ego turned Audi into a brand that he wants to have claws into every nooks and wanted to trump Porsche the brand, and lost it's identity in the process. 

 

Nick, I have no been to the factory and cannot comment as to whether Leipzig can accommodate a new model. The CGT was a very limited one off model. But you confused me regarding PCNA filling orders by passing the dealers. Why would demand be filled if PCNA filled the orders? Porsche distributes so many allocations to PCNA who in turn distributes to its dealership network. There are only so many allocations and I fail to see how there would be more if PCNA distributes them.

That logic reminds of the old car commercial where a dealer states he sells his cars with no profit but makes up for it in volume.

You have your way. I have my way. As for the correct way and the only way, it does not exist.

That’s it. The R8 does not look like a sports car.  Funniest thing I have heard. Not enough tax on the weed in CA.  Good one Nick.  All this talk is making me want a TT. Ridiculous. 

Leawood911:

That’s it. The R8 does not look like a sports car.  Funniest thing I have heard. Not enough tax on the weed in CA.  Good one Nick.  All this talk is making me want a TT. Ridiculous. 

Concur.  Something is wrong on that Left Coast if an R8 doesn’t look like a sports car.   I can almost understand if that comment was directed toward the TT; however, the TT is currently the entry level sports machine from Audi.  

The Cayman looks like a 911 and the new Cayenne has roots with the 911 (according to Porsche marketing). Is this not the branding of all car manufactures? For me it is just a question of cost and image. For some or other reason (which I do not understand) the R8 has not gotten the sales volumes and place in the sports car "ranking" it should have. As you can see I have both a 911 turbo and a R8 and on pure quality and driving the R8 is the better car. The R8 masters the balancing act between daily "smooth" driving and track performance the best. But at the end it is like the stock market: the market is always right. As sad as it is the R8 as not become the brand icon Audi was hoping it would be. 

nberry:

 

Nick, I have no been to the factory and cannot comment as to whether Leipzig can accommodate a new model. The CGT was a very limited one off model. But you confused me regarding PCNA filling orders by passing the dealers. Why would demand be filled if PCNA filled the orders? Porsche distributes so many allocations to PCNA who in turn distributes to its dealership network. There are only so many allocations and I fail to see how there would be more if PCNA distributes them.

That logic reminds of the old car commercial where a dealer states he sells his cars with no profit but makes up for it in volume.

Nick, with the current system, I can place 50 deposits with 50 different dealers and you do the same. In PCNA's eyes, wow that's 100 cars, but in reality it's only 2. There is no centralized database right now to keep track, even if there is, it will not be accurate as dealers enter bogus place sitter information on their allocations first while they juggle their 'list'. It's the reason why there are so many generic brand new GT cars sitting in showrooms asking ADM. When the dealers still hasn't finish up reordering their 'list' and the order has to be locked, they just enter common options and be done with it. Since they hogged all the allocations not many real customers can spec their own, they know those generic cars will have no problem selling.

But if PCNA keep a centralized database for orders and force dealers to enter actual customer information, then duplicate names can be spotted and deleted and open up more allocations for real customers. 

Porsche Canada already run this way for GT cars, while there still aren't enough cars to go around, the system is at least fair to everyone but the dealers. Dealers can still maintain a 'list' that they juggle but they don't get generic cars that sits on showrooms ordered by bogus customers like in the US. 

I agree with Whoopsy in that the R8 is playing in a segment Audi should not be in. They should leave that to Porsche and the 960.

rhino:

I agree with Whoopsy in that the R8 is playing in a segment Audi should not be in. They should leave that to Porsche and the 960.

I couldn't agree more. A R8 should have come from Porsche not Audi but it isn't Audi's or Porsche's fault. Porsche joined the VW Group family after Audi bought Lamborghini and it probably was too late to share the Huracan/R8 platform. Since Porsche is now responsible with sportscars in the VW Group, I assume that the R8 facelift and of course the next gen Huracan will be highly influenced by Porsche.

Nick is right, production capacity for the "960" wouldn't be an issue, they could even use the Audi Sport facilities in Neckarsulm where the next gen Huracan may be pre-manufactured as well (as it is now).

We all can agree on one thing: The R8 is like a "foreign object" in the Audi model family, it just doesn't belong. Audi kind of ruined the R8 by not marketing it right lately. I am actually surprised there will be a facelift.

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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

Competition improves the breed; evidently not if it impinges upon Porsche, the subsidiary lacking in innovation of late.  Porsche, as you have pointed out, was not part of the initial plan when the R8 was first developed but that shouldn’t have influenced Audi’s marketing of it, unfortunately it has since Piech has left the group.   

When the R8 was first conceived, Audi needed a follow up halo car to the TT, and this was the appropriate move.   Times have changed and SUVs dominate now, as Porsche is more, by volume, a SUV builder than sports car maker.  With the death of the R8, Audi’s racing division will basically be shut down. 

Porsche doesn't want to be in the segment. They make more money recycling a 911 body from $70 - 250K.

Porsche doesn't want to be in the segment. They make more money recycling a 911 body from $70 - 250K.

Whoopsy:

nberry:

 

Nick, I have no been to the factory and cannot comment as to whether Leipzig can accommodate a new model. The CGT was a very limited one off model. But you confused me regarding PCNA filling orders by passing the dealers. Why would demand be filled if PCNA filled the orders? Porsche distributes so many allocations to PCNA who in turn distributes to its dealership network. There are only so many allocations and I fail to see how there would be more if PCNA distributes them.

That logic reminds of the old car commercial where a dealer states he sells his cars with no profit but makes up for it in volume.

 

Nick, with the current system, I can place 50 deposits with 50 different dealers and you do the same. In PCNA's eyes, wow that's 100 cars, but in reality it's only 2. There is no centralized database right now to keep track, even if there is, it will not be accurate as dealers enter bogus place sitter information on their allocations first while they juggle their 'list'. It's the reason why there are so many generic brand new GT cars sitting in showrooms asking ADM. When the dealers still hasn't finish up reordering their 'list' and the order has to be locked, they just enter common options and be done with it. Since they hogged all the allocations not many real customers can spec their own, they know those generic cars will have no problem selling.

But if PCNA keep a centralized database for orders and force dealers to enter actual customer information, then duplicate names can be spotted and deleted and open up more allocations for real customers. 

Porsche Canada already run this way for GT cars, while there still aren't enough cars to go around, the system is at least fair to everyone but the dealers. Dealers can still maintain a 'list' that they juggle but they don't get generic cars that sits on showrooms ordered by bogus customers like in the US. 

 

Nick, I guess that’s the question. Does demand drive allocations for dealerships or over all performance? I was under the impression that Porsche assumes there will be a demand for their GT cars. They decide how many to build based on capacity and market forces like protecting the Brand. To my knowledge(I could be wrong) Porsche doesn’t care how many V70 profiles dealers put into the system. Rather Porsche looks at other performance factors in deciding how many allocations each dealer receives. Porsche has already decided how many they are going to build so they are working with a finite number. 

However, I recognize that with the .1 RS they increased production beyond with their goal. That was an unusual case. 

You have your way. I have my way. As for the correct way and the only way, it does not exist.

nberry:

Whoopsy:

nberry:

 

Nick, I have no been to the factory and cannot comment as to whether Leipzig can accommodate a new model. The CGT was a very limited one off model. But you confused me regarding PCNA filling orders by passing the dealers. Why would demand be filled if PCNA filled the orders? Porsche distributes so many allocations to PCNA who in turn distributes to its dealership network. There are only so many allocations and I fail to see how there would be more if PCNA distributes them.

That logic reminds of the old car commercial where a dealer states he sells his cars with no profit but makes up for it in volume.

 

Nick, with the current system, I can place 50 deposits with 50 different dealers and you do the same. In PCNA's eyes, wow that's 100 cars, but in reality it's only 2. There is no centralized database right now to keep track, even if there is, it will not be accurate as dealers enter bogus place sitter information on their allocations first while they juggle their 'list'. It's the reason why there are so many generic brand new GT cars sitting in showrooms asking ADM. When the dealers still hasn't finish up reordering their 'list' and the order has to be locked, they just enter common options and be done with it. Since they hogged all the allocations not many real customers can spec their own, they know those generic cars will have no problem selling.

But if PCNA keep a centralized database for orders and force dealers to enter actual customer information, then duplicate names can be spotted and deleted and open up more allocations for real customers. 

Porsche Canada already run this way for GT cars, while there still aren't enough cars to go around, the system is at least fair to everyone but the dealers. Dealers can still maintain a 'list' that they juggle but they don't get generic cars that sits on showrooms ordered by bogus customers like in the US. 

 

Nick, I guess that’s the question. Does demand drive allocations for dealerships or over all performance? I was under the impression that Porsche assumes there will be a demand for their GT cars. They decide how many to build based on capacity and market forces like protecting the Brand. To my knowledge(I could be wrong) Porsche doesn’t care how many V70 profiles dealers put into the system. Rather Porsche looks at other performance factors in deciding how many allocations each dealer receives. Porsche has already decided how many they are going to build so they are working with a finite number. 

However, I recognize that with the .1 RS they increased production beyond with their goal. That was an unusual case. 

 

Dealer is suppose to use the V70 status to inform Porsche of the demand. Not that everyone who show interest will get a car. The V70 status is there for that purpose in the first place. But even Porsche knows dealers are abusing the system and with the current US laws PCNA can't do a damn thing about it. 

Historically, PAG knows how big the market is for PCNA, so a rough idea on how many cars to send over is always in the ballpark. PCNA also knows which dealer can sell more car so the division of the pie is also sort of a known quantity, the assignment of allocations to each dealer is from a 'formula' and then bonus cars are awarded from their pool cars on top. 

Right now, the slots are not assigned fairly by each dealer. Yes they have to make room for the 918 VIPs, and their own VIPs, but for the rest of their allocations they are going by the highest bidder for ADM. So instead of distributing the rest of the allocations to real customers, they hog them themselves and find suckers to pay ADM for them. If PCNA can have the final say on the non-VIP allocations, then perhaps more real customers can get their hands on a GT Porsche config-ed to their spec instead of buy a generic one with markup from a dealer. No one loses except the dealer. PAG will sell just as many cars but more real customers and not flippers will get a car too. 

Nick, much of what you posted makes sense. But I would point out many dealers do not charge ADM my dealer being one. They understand I will return the car to them fro a fair price and they will sell it at a premium. Since I am in and out of car within a year or so, it's a mutually beneficial arrangement. I get priority allocations and the dealer profits double on my cars.  

That said, I am concerned he may start charging ADM on small production GT models. He has received calls for the GT2RS from people willing to pay more than $200,000 over MSRP. Should that happen, I'll move on and look at another brand or just get out entirely.

You have your way. I have my way. As for the correct way and the only way, it does not exist.

And Nick you are one of your dealer's VIP even when you are not a 918 VIP, that's the point I am trying to make. Like 918 customers, you are almost guaranteed to have any car at a fair price.

Each dealers has their own long time buyers who they considered VIPs that they will treat them nicely, the 918 VIPs they have no choice as those have a direct line into PCNA. 

The rest, 3rd level customers are the one suffering through dealer tactics.

Are you guys still talking about allocation problems? 

noone1:

Are you guys still talking about allocation problems? 

Nah, we are just talking about the snow outside, or lack of, as spring is here.

heard you guys start wearing Tshirts now,unlike us:

Same here , waking up to this this morning. Powder day 

 964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm --  991 GT3 RS 

No t-shirts here either, we got fresh snow this night. 😩

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/2018-audi-r8-lower-priced-29-litre-v6-variant-join-facelifted-range

sfo:

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/2018-audi-r8-lower-priced-29-litre-v6-variant-join-facelifted-range

We discussed this before, it is possible that this car is for the Chinese market only. The V6 was rumored before as an entry level model. We will know more this summer/autumn once the facelift shows up.

If the facelift gets at least 640 hp and rear wheel steering, I am very inclined to go for it if the exhaust/engine sound is still the same.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

rhino:

I agree with Whoopsy in that the R8 is playing in a segment Audi should not be in. They should leave that to Porsche and the 960.

And Porsche is playing with its Panamera in the VW Passat segment and with its Cayenne in the Touareg segment. 

So - quid pro quo