Crown

Rossi:

noone1:

964C2:

If the Mission E can hit the market in the Tesla S price range, the Tesla will become history!

Tesla S won't even be in production anymore by the time the mission E comes out...

Because Tesla will be bankrupt?

--

 

We're at the point where you can be the fastest or just sound like you're the fastest.



The secret of life is to admire without desiring.

 

You naughty boy, you... 

Btw., this is only a possibility how the final Mission E could look but it is pretty close to the real thing.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

Extremely ugly photoshop, looks like a bad chinese copy. Nothing to do with the original concept.

alexalex88:

Extremely ugly photoshop, looks like a bad chinese copy. Nothing to do with the original concept.

The original concept won't make it to the road, you need to understand that. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

RC:

alexalex88:

Extremely ugly photoshop, looks like a bad chinese copy. Nothing to do with the original concept.

The original concept won't make it to the road, you need to understand that. 

Even the fron light design?

Boyko23:

RC:

alexalex88:

Extremely ugly photoshop, looks like a bad chinese copy. Nothing to do with the original concept.

The original concept won't make it to the road, you need to understand that. 

Even the fron light design?

Very close...

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

Looks good for a street version but lets be honest, the only competition right now looks like a french minivan ate a Prius ... not hard to beat 

--

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

Carlos from Spain:

Looks good for a street version but lets be honest, the only competition right now looks like a french minivan ate a Prius ... not hard to beat 

--

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

 

That photoshop doesn't have a good angle. Just think the concept car in a more "objective" design.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

its going to be a sedan like coupe not a 2 seater sportscar, so from that perspective I actually think it looks good even from that angle

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

This PS looks nice for my taste, even a bit better than an actual spy pics. I like the mule thought, but the bottom window line shouldn't be bent imho

That render has 570S lights...

RC:

alexalex88:

Extremely ugly photoshop, looks like a bad chinese copy. Nothing to do with the original concept.

The original concept won't make it to the road, you need to understand that. 

I understand that RC. But then you see how AM adapted its Valkyrie to the street version and you should ask yourself if Porsche couldn't have done the same.

Maybe that PS has issues but that front is just plain ugly. Way too many things going on there and some fin like edges?

Anyhow the issue will be the price. At equivalent performance, the Mission E will be no less than 50% more than the Tesla (not today’s models, the better cheaper ones in 3 years).

And the 911 is more expensive than a mustang and still worth every penny... so? It's obvious Tesla is going to exit the premium segment and start competing in the economy segment once Porsche and the Germans come in the EV market...

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

Tesla isn't going anywhere in the premium space. I predict abysmal Mission E sales for years due to non-competitive pricing.

The EV market is going to grow grow grow. Tesla won't be leaving any segment of it.

noone1:

Tesla isn't going anywhere in the premium space. I predict abysmal Mission E sales for years due to non-competitive pricing.

The EV market is going to grow grow grow. Tesla won't be leaving any segment of it.

The Mission E will be competitively priced at Tesla S levels, incl. various performance variants (similar to Tesla S variants). Only that it is going to be a Porsche with better quality, especially in the interior. 

I see only one problem with the Mission E, especially outside Europe: Charging stations. Tesla already has many of them, not sure how Porsche will handle that, especially since the Tesla chargers are not compatible with the Mission E (as far as I heard).

Also, Audi is supposed to introduce at the same time even cheaper ELVs for the mass market in the US, not even talking about the various models plant by BMW and Mercedes.

This is going to be interesting but one thing is for sure: Tesla is going to come under immense pressure over the next couple of years. Let's see how clever Elon Musk reacts to that.

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

No way. The base Panamera is $10K more than a base Model S, and that's with a crap ICE.

Porsche isn't even competitive with an ICE, so how are they going to be competitive with an EV? The reality is that they will only be competitive at the significant expense of their margins and profitability.

Tesla 75D $74,500 (no options)
Panamera 4 $89,600 (no options)

The Tesla is better equipped and has way better resale value so it costs less to own. The Panamera interior is nicer.

Rc you are saying that Porsche will have a Mission E selling for less that a Panamera4 and that will outperform it? 

Same argument can do done for higher end:

Tesla P100D all souped up $140k (full options)
Panamera turbo S hybrid $184k (no options)

Posrche is going to have a $140k Mission E that outperforms (because of EV tech) their top end model for $50k less?

Mind you we are using today Tesla and Panamera price points and models...

noone1:

No way. The base Panamera is $10K more than a base Model S, and that's with a crap ICE.

Porsche isn't even competitive with an ICE, so how are they going to be competitive with an EV? The reality is that they will only be competitive at the significant expense of their margins and profitability.

Simple: Porsche is not alone, Porsche is part of VW Group and the tech will not only be used for Porsche but many other brands in the VW Group family. Also, VW Group can afford to push Tesla out of business with competitive, even non profitable, prices. Tesla doesn't have the luxury. Not even a bit.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

SciFrog:

Tesla 75D $74,500 (no options, )
Panamera 4 $89,600 (no options)

The Tesla is better equipped and has way better resale value so it costs less to own. The Panamera interior is nicer.

Rc you are saying that Porsche will have a Mission E selling for less that a Panamera4 and that will outperform it? 

Same argument can do done for higher end:

Tesla P100D all souped up $140k (full options)
Panamera turbo S hybrid $184k (no options)

Posrche is going to have a $140k Mission E that outperforms (because of EV tech) their top end model for $50k less?

Mind you we are using today Tesla and Panamera price points and models...

Guys, just wait and see. Porsche (and VW Group) know what is at stake and they are going for a win. 

VW Group is looking for an aggressive market penetration from what I heard. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

RC what you say doesn’t make sense. For example you are saying that they will have a high end Mission E that runs circles around a Cayenne turbo S hybrid for 20% less? And where do you place the Macan EV?

Unless we are totallly wrong about what the Mission E is. People here think Panamera level, maybe it is only the sedan equivalent of the Macan (the old Pajun). But in that case the tesla S is not the competition, it is the Model 3 albeit way less luxurious. The Tesla S would be significantly larger than the Mission E.

SciFrog:

RC what you say doesn’t make sense. For example you are saying that they will have a high end Mission E that runs circles around a Cayenne turbo S hybrid for 20% less? And where do you place the Macan EV?

I never said that. One is a ELV, the other one a hybrid. Big difference. I would never get an ELV over the next decade or so, no matter how fast it is. It is just not practical for me. 

Unless we are totallly wrong about what the Mission E is. People here think Panamera level, maybe it is only the sedan equivalent of the Macan (the old Pajun). But in that case the tesla S is not the competition, it is the Model 3 albeit way less luxurious. The Tesla S would be significantly larger than the Mission E.

The Mission E will be basically a smaller Panamera with a "bigger"(or more usable) trunk (at least this is what I understood from the concept and the data available). The Mission E isn't supposed to replace the Panamera, this would be new to me.

Just wait for the announcements (as early as 2019).

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

For Mission E to be competitive in price, it means all Panameras must drop massively in price since the Mission E will be superior, newer, and higher performance.

And that's just the Model S. If it happens with the S, no reason to think it wouldn't happen with the X/Cayenne/Macan etc.

As I said, the only way for Porsche to be price competitive is by taking all their prices down massively and their profits with them. The alternative is just that the Mission E etc won't be very successful for quite a while and Tesla sales will be fine.

noone1:

For Mission E to be competitive in price, it means all Panameras must drop massively in price since the Mission E will be superior, newer, and higher performance.

You don't get it: Not everyone is interested in an ELV for various reasons. Especially in Europe.

And that's just the Model S. If it happens with the S, no reason to think it wouldn't happen with the X/Cayenne/Macan etc.

No price cuts.

As I said, the only way for Porsche to be price competitive is by taking all their prices down massively and their profits with them. The alternative is just that the Mission E etc won't be very successful for quite a while and Tesla sales will be fine.

Why? An ELV is not the same as a fuel operated car or a hybrid. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

I am with Noone on that one, Panamera sales will be destroyed in the USA and Cayenne could be severely affected too if the Mission E gets AWD or if a Macan ELV comes out at the price points you mention.

SciFrog:

I am with Noone on that one, Panamera sales will be destroyed in the USA and Cayenne could be severely affected too if the Mission E gets AWD or if a Macan ELV comes out at the price points you mention.

So what? Once people opt for ELVs... There is a certain strategy behind this and it may not be visible so far (not even sure Porsche and VW Group are fully committed to it) but I will stop at saying that VW Group has decided to pick up a fight in the ELV business, or whatever the car(s) of the future will be. Right now they are still dealing with the aftermath of the emissions scandal but this won't take forever.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

Why do people think it has to be either or?

There is a market for pure EV and there is a market for gas/ gas hybrid.

There is a small segment of shoppers that will cross shop but most people don't.

People keep barking about Tesla stealing Mercedes BMW etc sales but the numbers tell a different story, all conventional car makers are still going strong.

Some people will go for the Mission E simply because the EV make sense to them for their needs.

Others will keep buying the Panamera simply because a EV doesn't make sense to them, they needed the flexibility of a gas engine car, or they like hearing engine notes, or they want to be actually green and avoid coal fired electricity powered EVs. 

Whoopsy:

Why do people think it has to be either or?

There is a market for pure EV and there is a market for gas/ gas hybrid.

Yes. 

There is a small segment of shoppers that will cross shop but most people don't.

Again, agreed. 

People keep barking about Tesla stealing Mercedes BMW etc sales but the numbers tell a different story, all conventional car makers are still going strong.

Indeed. 

Some people will go for the Mission E simply because the EV make sense to them for their needs.

Exactly.

Others will keep buying the Panamera simply because a EV doesn't make sense to them, they needed the flexibility of a gas engine car, or they like hearing engine notes, or they want to be actually green and avoid coal fired electricity powered EVs. 

Nothing more to add. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

Just look how quick it went down the drain with the Panamera 4S diesel V8. Porsche discontinued it less than 1 year after introducing it. The 4S diesels in showrooms are colder than cold.... Same thing will happen with petrol cars in a few years. People will not consider them being attractive alternatives. Just simple as that.

1-2 years after Mission-E introduction has taken place and Porsche have sorted the charging infrastructure I can't see anyone choosing a Panamera with ICE over a Mission-E if they are priced the same. The feeling of driving an old (maybe facelifted?) Panamera with a dated drivetrain when the Mission-E is available. Why?

Whoopsy:

 or they want to be actually green and avoid coal fired electricity powered EVs. 

You don't actually believe this, do you?

lukestern:

Just look how quick it went down the drain with the Panamera 4S diesel V8. Porsche discontinued it less than 1 year after introducing it. The 4S diesels in showrooms are colder than cold.... Same thing will happen with petrol cars in a few years. People will not consider them being attractive alternatives. Just simple as that.

Everyone driving the V8 Diesel in the new Panamera was amazed of how good it is (only sound was an issue). The reason Porsche stopped this engine is related to the emissions scandal, not because people don't want Diesels anymore. If the government threatens to close down city centers for Diesel cars, well... 

1-2 years after Mission-E introduction has taken place and Porsche have sorted the charging infrastructure I can't see anyone choosing a Panamera with ICE over a Mission-E if they are priced the same. The feeling of driving an old (maybe facelifted?) Panamera with a dated drivetrain when the Mission-E is available. Why?

Simple, you already said it: Charging infrastructure. How long is the Tesla S on the market now? 8 years maybe? How is the charging infrastructure looking so far? In my town, there is no Supercharger. What the heck, they don't even have one in Munich, which is the capital of Bavaria and one of the biggest cities in Germany.

Many luxury sedans and SUVs are run through businesses. Do you really think these people care about ELVs? They need a status symbol which works well and which brings them safely and comfortably from A to B. A Tesla S is indeed a status symbol, kind of, in Germany but not in the business world. Unless you are working, maybe, in the energy or innovative tech sector where a Tesla S could send a positive message.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)