Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: America's war on sumthin. - Page1

Jan 4, 2003 10:21:51 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59606, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002

SUV = Evil?

Check these links, I had to hold my breath to believe they're true.

People don't seem to have enough problems these days.

http://www.ariannaonline.com/suv/

http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/1122/p02s01-ussc.html

Comments are greatly appreciated.

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Jan 5, 2003 2:06:00 AM

JayT: Newbie; Loc: SC, USA; Posts: 44, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 13, 2002; Reply to: RC

Re: SUV = Evil?

The thing about Arianna is that she was recently a very conservitive activist. Lots of TV and print exposure. Her former husband ran for US Senate from CA and lost. She raised lots of money on his effort.

BUT her life changed drasticly (her former husband came out of the closet) and the next thing she is the darling of the left wing.

She was a little limited in her thought process as a right winger and she is just as limited as a left winger.

As to the CSM concern about Global Warming and fuel economy they, just like the CA EPA, and most enviormental extremists have campagned against Diesels for years. If they were really concerned about fuel economy (and therefore CO2 production) they should have been at the for front encouraging the sale of the modern diesel - but they have killed the diesel for the near future in the US.

Most of these groups have not considered the consequences of their demands - otherwise we would have Nukes for electrical power (zero global warming) and all the money wasted on the madate for electrical cars could have been used to further develope the diesel.

Based upon the study sited in the CSM and if we lower the level for drunk driving to 0.05 and keep kids off the highway until they are 18 "my calculations indicate we will save so many lives that we will be raising the dead".

PS the sentance in the next to last paragraph in the CSM makes no sense to me.

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Jan 5, 2003 5:26:13 PM

FixedWing: Veteran; Loc:; Posts: 870, Gallery; Registered on: May 25, 2002; Reply to: RC

America's war on sumthin.

You are really getting deep into American politics here RC.

This isn't really about SUV's so much as it is about recent conservative trends which hook into having some sort of on-going war on something or other to focus (and therefore, distract) attention.

For years it was the "War on Drugs". But now there is a new war, the "War on Terrorism". This new war has tended to displance the previous war. The ad campaign that the first article refers to is a glitzy series of ads which try to tie the drug issue to the terrorism issue. Of course, there is no hard evidence so they try to do it with inuendo, gloss and show. But all it does is leave you asking "where's the proof??" Meanwhile, the viewer is left asking why they need to go to these lengths to make their case. In my opinion, the ads achieve the opposite result. They really piss me off every time I see them.

And more so, they are also a reminder of how absent this administration is on proof for any of its claims.

The SUV tie-in is sort of a stick-it to the conservative southern evangelical crowd that tends to be rich and supports of right-wing causes and, coincidentally, frequent drivers of SUV's. So what better than to accuse them of supporting terrorism by wastfully consuming large quantities of petrol thus making the world dependant on middle east oil?

S.

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Jan 6, 2003 3:24:28 AM

JayT: Newbie; Loc: SC, USA; Posts: 44, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 13, 2002; Reply to: FixedWing

Re: America's war on sumthin.

Fixedwing, it will be very intresting to see what your response is after Colmbia finishes there trial against the IRA and their "assistantance" to the terrorist movement in that country.

Why are the staments of the government (it appears to have more to do with a Republican) to be discounted while the statements of some "private" orginaziton (which is not identified nor is their source of funding identified) to be accepted as fact. Is there some inate biais there?

The other thing is where is the study that says most people buy SUVs for safety? I think (but I have not done a poll) most people buy SUVs for the cargo capacity, performance (on & off road) and looks. If they buy them for safety, should the people who buy M-Bs or BMWs for safety be denied them?

And another point - the US imports less Middle East oil than in any time in the last two decades.

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Jan 6, 2003 3:41:09 AM

FixedWing: Veteran; Loc:; Posts: 870, Gallery; Registered on: May 25, 2002; Reply to: JayT

Re: America's war on sumthin.

In reply to:

it will be very intresting to see what your response is after Colmbia finishes there trial against the IRA and their "assistantance" to the terrorist movement in that country.

So is the IRA meant to be the source of the drug money or the beneficiary of the drug money??? I don't understand the relevance of this.

In reply to:

Why are the staments of the government (it appears to have more to do with a Republican) to be discounted while the statements of some "private" orginaziton (which is not identified nor is their source of funding identified) to be accepted as fact. Is there some inate biais there?

My point simply was that the administration was attempting to argue its case without evidence. If there is a link they haven't made the case to show it. I'm not sure what private organisation you are referring to or what its relevance is to my point.

In reply to:

The other thing is where is the study that says most people buy SUVs for safety? I think (but I have not done a poll) most people buy SUVs for the cargo capacity, performance (on & off road) and looks. If they buy them for safety, should the people who buy M-Bs or BMWs for safety be denied them?

What is the relevance of this? Why does it matter what reasons people have for buying SUV's?

In reply to:

And another point - the US imports less Middle East oil than in any time in the last two decades.

I believe you are right. I think that the argument that those who buy SUV's are aiding terrorists is a rediculous one. But isn't that the whole point of making the argument? To show how rediculous it is??

And doesn't that in turn show how rediculous some of the other "aids terrorist" arguments are? And isn't that the whole point of the campaign? Who can seriously believe that one should not buy an SUV because it might foster terrorism?

S.

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Jan 6, 2003 4:22:43 AM

JayT: Newbie; Loc: SC, USA; Posts: 44, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 13, 2002; Reply to: FixedWing

Re: America's war on sumthin.

The Columbian governent has indited the IRA for support of terroisim, and the funding was provided by drug money. This is just one example. The point of the adds was that terrisim in many forms ( the shooting of an inocent bisander) can be driven by drug funds. In Baltimore, Maryland a family of five was killed in a fire because they stood up to a local drug dealer - to me this is terroisim.

I took your post as to draw a conclusion between terroisim and the purcahase of an SUV. If I was wrong I appologize.

As to the CSM article I agree there is no connection to terroisim - these people have a "green" agenda and anything other than a Honda Insight is unacceptable. But they overlook the issue that nobody wanted to buy Honda Insigts.

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Jan 6, 2003 5:01:30 AM

FixedWing: Veteran; Loc:; Posts: 870, Gallery; Registered on: May 25, 2002; Reply to: JayT

Re: America's war on sumthin.

The SUV is just a red herring for most of these guys. Of course, you can always find someone that really believes that the SUV is evil but let's face it, for most of them they're just making political brownie points.

Personally, I agree that the SUV is over used today in American society and I also think that it is not a safe vehicle (for either those inside or out) and I have my suspicions about why most people buy them but does that mean that everyone using one is committing waste? Of course not.

I think you point up the problem with the "terrorist" label yourself. Of course, if you define it widely enough then everything is terrorism. But that's just silly and we both know it.

On drugs, you might recall that before "terrorism" became the word of the day, drug money was said to fee organised crime. Certainly terrorism is crime but is a crime terrorism?

Anyway, I think you'll probabl also remember that the answer most had for drugs feeding organises crime was to decriminalise it so that those engaged in it wouldn't become filthy rich. The point was that it was the criminalisation of drugs that made for drug barrons around the world. Columbia is an excellent example of this and just about every Columbia leader has pointed to the USA and the policies of the U.S. government as the source of the strength of the rebels.

So if America's anti-drug policies fed the criminals then don't they also feed the terrorists??

None of this has much to do with SUV's does it?

S.

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Jan 7, 2003 1:34:08 AM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13737, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: RC

Not evil but certainly dangerous and a fuel comsumption

monster. Already CA has passed a law requiring certain fuel and emission standards by 2008 which the auto manuf. are fighting.

The battle is just beginning and you can be certain of one result...the present SUV's will be history. They will be dramatically redesigned and marketed in a totally new fashion. The sport function will be deemphasized and the utility enhanced.

The result will be a migration from power to compactness with enhanced utility. Gas mileage, safety and emissions will be greatly improved.

I know this does not square with what is the trend today. The auto makers are presently gouging themselves with profits in anticipation of what will happen in a couple of years.

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Jan 7, 2003 4:55:40 PM

Seth: Junior; Loc: Nevada, USA; Posts: 120, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 19, 2002; Reply to: nberry

Re: Not evil but certainly dangerous and a fuel comsumption

It is possible today to have fun, sporty, small cars. I have a MINI Cooper and you can't get more fun for the $. Granted it can't carry a lot of people or a big load, nor does the Honda Insight. I also have a Jeep Grand Cherokee which was purchased when we lived in mountains and had to deal with months of snow. We value free choice and a less intrusive form of government in the USA, I do not like the socialist agenda of the greens and their allies in the government. They seek power and control, that's the bottom line.

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Jan 7, 2003 6:36:28 PM

FixedWing: Veteran; Loc:; Posts: 870, Gallery; Registered on: May 25, 2002; Reply to: Seth

Motorcycle

Well, a lot of people have a whole lot of fun on motorbikes. But I don't hear mother's promoting them to their children as a good way to have a social concious.

S.

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Jan 14, 2003 12:32:56 PM

GM Austin: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Texas , United States; Posts: 3530, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 10, 2002; Reply to: RC

Re: SUV = Evil?

I've heard that Adrianna's wealth is derived from oil and she flys a private jet (do those come as gas/electric hybrids?)

It seems this debate is just getting started. Anyway, here is more interesting commentary from another source:

http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=5673

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Jan 14, 2003 1:34:16 PM

FixedWing: Veteran; Loc:; Posts: 870, Gallery; Registered on: May 25, 2002; Reply to: GM Austin

Evil=???

Well NASA did just test a solar powered aircraft ....

The solution to high fuel consumption is obvious. Raise fuel taxes. If that still doesn't work then raise them some more. The capitalist way.

S.

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Jan 17, 2003 4:07:02 AM

GM Austin: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Texas , United States; Posts: 3530, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 10, 2002; Reply to: RC

Re: SUV = Evil?

Brock Yates is too funny!

http://www.techcentralstation.com/1051/envirowrapper.jsp?PID=1051-450&CID=1051-011603C

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Jan 17, 2003 2:40:03 PM

FixedWing: Veteran; Loc:; Posts: 870, Gallery; Registered on: May 25, 2002; Reply to: GM Austin

Yates = Evil?

Do you think?

He basically tries to confuse the issue without really adding much to the debate. Yes, it is true that JC might have driven an SUV in his carpentry trade and that a Hummer has an advantage in a war setting, but that's not what the ads are referring to is it?

Yates fails to address the issue of whether burning unnecessary quantities of fuel to be surrounded by tons of empty steal in the suburban setting is aiding terrorism.

In fact, no one seems to want to address that question. Instead they prefer to concentrate on other things such as who the proponent is, etc. The USA consumes more oil per capita than anywhere else. Does that level of consumption feed terrorism? That's really what is being asked here. SUV's are just one of the more visible sources of waste (unless you happen to be a carpenter of course).

S. [working on those stars again]

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Jan 18, 2003 2:42:46 AM

GM Austin: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Texas , United States; Posts: 3530, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 10, 2002; Reply to: FixedWing

Re: Yates = Evil?

Is Yates evil or is he funny? I absolutely think he is funny, entertaining and a great wordsmith who is more than capable of turning a clever phrase (setting aside the tired Cannonball stuff for the moment). Did he enlighten us with his coverage of this debate? No, but I did like the piece. I find Rush Limbaugh entertaining and I almost never agree with him.

Neither one are evil and they got where they are because they can entertain.

Whether we aid terrorism by wasting fuel in SUV's is the question, yes. We will not find an answer here. None of us are capable of answering that question and maybe no one anywhere can fully and correctly answer that question.

There is the "possibility" that we do aid terrorism by driving SUV's. But to what degree? Is it different from setting my thermostat 2 degrees higher in the winter? Flying wastes a lot of fuel. Should I not fly? What level of guilt do I want to shoot for here?

Does the USA's high per capita oil consumption make it more guilty? Yeah, maybe, and maybe we should raise the taxes on fuel in the US (I could support that). If we did that would there be less terrorism? If SUV's improved their fuel consumption rate would we reduce terrorism?

There are so many if's and maybe's at this point that chaos theory is likely to rule any answers. What is being proposed is that we play it safe and not drive SUV's on the possibility that there may be a causal link. Well, I think that is too much.

Yes, it is a concern and, yes, I wish SUV's consumed less fuel and, yes, I will feel some guilt associated with driving a Cayenne because of all that. And perhaps Arianna is moving us all in a better direction by raising awareness of this issue (even if it is for all the wrong reasons). But the reality, at least in the US, is that fuel cost is a very small consideration in the operation of an automobile. And it is not at all clear that the cost should be higher. And it is not at all clear that any of us should feel guilty about any of this.

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Jan 18, 2003 3:33:08 AM

FixedWing: Veteran; Loc:; Posts: 870, Gallery; Registered on: May 25, 2002; Reply to: GM Austin

Re: Yates = Evil?

And of course, I agree with everything you say.

A couple days ago I watched a guy drive up to my local airport and climb into his very own Cessna Citation CJ1 jet. Well I thought, if only I could afford it then I'd happily trade my Turbo in on that! Then I could burn humongous quantities of jet fuel as I entertained myself to no end (and coincidentally got where I was going in no time).

So I hardly subscribe to the SUV=Evil campaign. My personal reason for not liking SUV's is solely because of the complete idiots who tend to prefer this vehicle.

And the only reason I like the ad campaign is that it mirrors Bush's "Drugs Aid Terrorism" campaign which I think is just as stupid as the SUV campaign for all of the good reasons that you gave.

S.

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SUV = Evil?

Re: SUV = Evil?

America's war on sumthin.

Re: America's war on sumthin.

Re: America's war on sumthin.

Re: America's war on sumthin.

Re: America's war on sumthin.

Not evil but certainly dangerous and a fuel comsumption

Re: Not evil but certainly dangerous and a fuel comsumption

Motorcycle

Re: SUV = Evil?

Evil=???

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Yates = Evil?

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Re: Yates = Evil?

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