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May 21, 2008 7:40:18 PM
- fritz
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Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap
Quote:
JoeRockhead said:Quote:
Jeff (in SF) said:Quote:
nberry said:
Dynamics of a rear engine car are totally different than a front engine. An engine sitting behind the rear axle is at a distinct disadvantage.
(edit).. Newton's laws of physics are very solid and actually benefit a rear engined car.
Sorry, you lost him right there. Nick doesn't acknowledge the laws of physics as being relevant to Nissan's claims.
Extract from Wikipedia entry on Isaac Newton:
"English poet Alexander Pope was moved by Newton's accomplishments to write the famous epitaph:
"Nature and nature's laws lay hid in night;
God said "Let Newton be" and all was light." "
Nick's still in the dark.
May 21, 2008 7:54:40 PM
- JimFlat6
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May 21, 2008 8:20:10 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap
Quote:
Jeff (in SF) said:Quote:
nberry said:
Dynamics of a rear engine car are totally different than a front engine. An engine sitting behind the rear axle is at a distinct disadvantage.
You should be more explicit as to what disadvantage you mean. True front vs. rear engine is different, obviously, but in the areas of traction under acceleration and braking, Newton's laws of physics are very solid and actually benefit a rear engined car.
X2. The only reason for front engined platforms is packaging, by placing the engine in front, you get a big trunk and plenty of cabin space and read seats. BTW, I wonder if Nick knows who's idea was it to place the engine behind the driver instead of in front in race cars, in order to improve dinamics? kind of ironic really.
May 21, 2008 8:33:58 PM
- fritz
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Carlos from Spain
Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap
Quote:
Carlos from Spain said:Quote:
Jeff (in SF) said:Quote:
nberry said:
Dynamics of a rear engine car are totally different than a front engine. An engine sitting behind the rear axle is at a distinct disadvantage.
You should be more explicit as to what disadvantage you mean. True front vs. rear engine is different, obviously, but in the areas of traction under acceleration and braking, Newton's laws of physics are very solid and actually benefit a rear engined car.
X2. The only reason for front engined platforms is packaging, by placing the engine in front, you get a big trunk and plenty of cabin space and read seats. BTW, I wonder if Nick knows who's idea was it to place the engine behind the driver instead of in front in race cars, in order to improve dinamics? kind of ironic really.
Surely that was John Cooper, wasn't it?
Can't believe it was Ferrari.
Enzo used to think that a racing car was just an engine with a road wheel at each corner.
PS: That explains why his chassis were crap.
Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap
Quote:
nberry said:
I predict that if HvS does 7.40 or less in the GT-R, you and the rest of the Porschephiles will claim that Nissan gave him a souped up car. As long as a manufacturer other than Porsche achieve performance parameters that Porsche's are unable to do, Porschephiles will claim fraud.
It really is becoming tiresome and frankly embarrassing for a board with so many knowledgeable sport car enthusiast. Sad, very sad.
For sure, HvS will achieve a result above 7.40. Thus, no need to worry.
May 21, 2008 9:33:09 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap
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fritz said:
Surely that was John Cooper, wasn't it?
Can't believe it was Ferrari.
Enzo used to think that a racing car was just an engine with a road wheel at each corner.
PS: That explains why his chassis were crap.
Enzo was also quoted saying that aerodynamics are for people who can't build engines
AFAIK the first one was Ferdinand Porsche when building a race car for Auto Union he build the 16cil P-Wagon with the engine innovatively in the middle of the car, behind the driver, instead of in front of the driver as was yet the norm at the time.
May 21, 2008 9:44:31 PM
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nberry
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Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap
Quote:
Porsche-Jeck said:Quote:
fritz said:
Nick, knowing your typing skills I suspect that was just a typo.
Could have been a Freudian typo thoughmaybe in the future I should refrain from mentioning the F430 and the Boxster in one sentence, but I'll continue to overtake some of them at NoS
Sorry typo.
Just a point in fact. I have absolutely no problem people pointing out deficiencies in the 430. it is good to know and good for Ferrari to know.
Fritz, need I remind you that Newton was proven wrong by some German with a funny hairdo? Sometime those who think they are in the light are often in the dark.
Carlos, does HvS know how to drive a front engine car? Has he had any fast times with one?
May 21, 2008 9:48:16 PM
- fritz
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Carlos from Spain
Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap
Quote:
Carlos from Spain said:Quote:
fritz said:
Surely that was John Cooper, wasn't it?
Can't believe it was Ferrari.
Enzo used to think that a racing car was just an engine with a road wheel at each corner.
PS: That explains why his chassis were crap.
Enzo was also quoted saying that aerodynamics are for people who can't build engines
AFAIK the first one was Ferdinand Porsche when building a race car for Auto Union he build the 16cil P-Wagon with the engine innovatively in the middle of the car, behind the driver, instead of in front of the driver as was yet the norm at the time.
Of course!
I was thinking of the later Formula 1 transition to rear mid-engine layout.
Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap
Quote:
MKSGR said:Quote:
nberry said:
I predict that if HvS does 7.40 or less in the GT-R, you and the rest of the Porschephiles will claim that Nissan gave him a souped up car. As long as a manufacturer other than Porsche achieve performance parameters that Porsche's are unable to do, Porschephiles will claim fraud.
It really is becoming tiresome and frankly embarrassing for a board with so many knowledgeable sport car enthusiast. Sad, very sad.
For sure, HvS will achieve a result above 7.40. Thus, no need to worry.
Who's worried?
If the GTR achieves a class-beating time in the hands of HvS or anyone else in standard production street-legal set-up, then it will deserve all the laurels Nissan is claiming for it.
Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap
Quote:
nberry said:
Carlos, does HvS know how to drive a front engine car? Has he had any fast times with one?
Really?
How about an SLR 722? A Ferrari 599? A ZZ06? A M3 CSL? All under 8 minutes.
I thought the GTR was supposed to be [beep] proof though.
Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap
Quote:
KresoF1 said:
Well, I do not get it... We are here in great dillema-to belive or not to belive in GT-R claimed 7.29min Ring time?
I do not belive in it.
Why?
Answer is not simple. BTW, Nick check that BMW/Sport Auto PDF that I posted few weeks ago AGAIN. It is not possible to reach almost(or more then!) 290km/h at Schwedenkreuz in that short time as claimed on GT-R graph. Something is wrong here...
Tires? Dunlops that are offered on basic version? Not the Bridgestone that is on best specs version? Strange again...
BTW, another VERY interesting point from different track time... By EVO on Bedford...
GT-R is just 0.3s faster then R8 there according to R.Meaden(who was the driver in both cases)... GT-R was slower on top speed check point then R8! Something is again very wrong here...
I think that we already discussed why it reached 290
The 997 GT3,997 GT3 RS, 997 Turbo, 599 GTB, 996 GT3 RS, Gallardo Superleggara (sp?) and Z06 were slower than the R8 around Bedford
May 21, 2008 10:09:46 PM
- Porsche-Jeck
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Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap
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nberry said:
Sorry typo.
Just a point in fact. I have absolutely no problem people pointing out deficiencies in the 430. it is good to know and good for Ferrari to know.
Nick, no prob - no offence taken
My remark re overtaking F-cars at NoS was tongue in cheek of course (though true) - it has nothing to do with deficiences of the car (more with driver's "deficiencies"
) I'll take a F430 any day over a GT-R Just to put things about these crazy NoS-times into perspective: watched a nice feature about NoS on TV tonight.
An amateur sportscar driver was given the opportunity to play around with the Maserati Coupé at the GP-circuit (safe environment). Thereafter they offered a bet to him: if he would clock a 10 min laptime on NoS he could keep the car
Unfortunately it was his first NoS lap ever - he clocked a 12:30
Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap
Quote:
fritz said:Quote:
MKSGR said:Quote:
nberry said:
I predict that if HvS does 7.40 or less in the GT-R, you and the rest of the Porschephiles will claim that Nissan gave him a souped up car. As long as a manufacturer other than Porsche achieve performance parameters that Porsche's are unable to do, Porschephiles will claim fraud.
It really is becoming tiresome and frankly embarrassing for a board with so many knowledgeable sport car enthusiast. Sad, very sad.
For sure, HvS will achieve a result above 7.40. Thus, no need to worry.
Who's worried?
If the GTR achieves a class-beating time in the hands of HvS or ANYONE ELSE in standard production street-legal set-up, then it will deserve all the laurels Nissan is claiming for it.
Fritz Susuki did it in 7.29. You don't believe it. Sadly you like many others on this board will not believe anytime that is under 7.50
Thuggy fast time on the Ring is under 7.40. I don't believe any of the cars you listed were under 7.40 in the hands of HvS.
Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap
Quote:
nberry said:
Fritz, need I remind you that Newton was proven wrong by some German with a funny hairdo? Sometime those who think they are in the light are often in the dark.
Nick, I am sure that with your grasp of physics you will be able explain to us in clear and simple terms what Isaac Newton got wrong which, with the benefit of a couple of hundred years of additional scientific advancement, Albert Einstein was able to get right?
This should be fun.
Quote:
nberry said:
Carlos, does HvS know how to drive a front engine car? Has he had any fast times with one?
It doesn't often happen, but words fail me!
Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap
Quote:
nberry said:
Fritz Susuki did it in 7.29. You don't believe it. Sadly you like many others on this board will not believe anytime that is under 7.50
Nick, I've said it before, I'll say it again:
What I do not yet believe is that a car weighing the declared weight of the street-legal GTR, with the declared power output of the street-legal GTR and with street-legal tires would be so much faster on the 'Ring than other cars with considerably less weight and comparable/more power.
I know that Nissan was busting a gut to get a good 'Ring time because I saw them testing a prototype there a couple of times early last year. Didn't know then what claims they would later make for the car or that Nissan had a history of making dubious lap-time claims for earlier versions of the model, otherwise I could have put a stopwatch on it.
Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap
Quote:
fritz said:Quote:
nberry said:
Fritz, need I remind you that Newton was proven wrong by some German with a funny hairdo? Sometime those who think they are in the light are often in the dark.
Nick, I am sure that with your grasp of physics you will be able explain to us in clear and simple terms what Isaac Newton got wrong which, with the benefit of a couple of hundred years of additional scientific advancement, Albert Einstein was able to get right?
This should be fun.Quote:
nberry said:
Carlos, does HvS know how to drive a front engine car? Has he had any fast times with one?
It doesn't often happen, but words fail me!
Since your an engineer and I am not I am surprised you are not aware that Einsteins Special theory of relativity replaced Newton's law regarding kinetics. Also, Einstein law of general relativity pretty much emasculated Newton's theory of gravity.
FWIW, in 1919 two British expeditions were commissioned to go to to Brazil to make observations during an eclipse in order to determine whether Einstein's non Euclidean theory of space was right or Newton's. The result were indisputable. Einstein was right and Newton wrong. I believe the London Times ran headlines basically stating that Newton ideas were overthrown.
If course you know all of this and were testing me.
Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap
Quote:
nberry said:
Thuggy fast time on the Ring is under 7.40. I don't believe any of the cars you listed were under 7.40 in the hands of HvS.
So your argument is that Horst can't drive a front engined easy to drive GTR because he can't get any of the cars I mentioned below 7:40? Though he can get a CGT, a CCR and Zondas below 7:40. Thats your argument? Really?
Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap
Quote:
nberry said:
I predict that if HvS does 7.40 or less in the GT-R, you and the rest of the Porschephiles will claim that Nissan gave him a souped up car. As long as a manufacturer other than Porsche achieve performance parameters that Porsche's are unable to do, Porschephiles will claim fraud.
It really is becoming tiresome and frankly embarrassing for a board with so many knowledgeable sport car enthusiast. Sad, very sad.
Despite being a crazy Porsche Fan myself - I have to totally agree with you !!!
May 22, 2008 8:01:50 AM
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Carlos from Spain
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Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap
Quote:
nberry said:Quote:
fritz said:Quote:
nberry said:
Fritz, need I remind you that Newton was proven wrong by some German with a funny hairdo? Sometime those who think they are in the light are often in the dark.
Nick, I am sure that with your grasp of physics you will be able explain to us in clear and simple terms what Isaac Newton got wrong which, with the benefit of a couple of hundred years of additional scientific advancement, Albert Einstein was able to get right?
This should be fun.
Quote:
nberry said:
Carlos, does HvS know how to drive a front engine car? Has he had any fast times with one?
It doesn't often happen, but words fail me!
Since your an engineer and I am not I am surprised you are not aware that Einsteins Special theory of relativity replaced Newton's law regarding kinetics. Also, Einstein law of general relativity pretty much emasculated Newton's theory of gravity.
FWIW, in 1919 two British expeditions were commissioned to go to to Brazil to make observations during an eclipse in order to determine whether Einstein's non Euclidean theory of space was right or Newton's. The result were indisputable. Einstein was right and Newton wrong. I believe the London Times ran headlines basically stating that Newton ideas were overthrown.
If course you know all of this and were testing me.
Einstein did not prove Newton "wrong" Nick, what Einstein did was improve the accuracy of the more simpler newtonian principles by incorporating the space-time relativism, in fact Newtonian physics are still used today for many calulations, and taugh in schools, because its simple to use and for many apllications its accuracy is enough. Of course there are parts in the Principia Matematica that are wrong like def of absoute space but these are secondary and in general his principals are perfectly valid and in sintony with Einsteins more perfected theories. In fact how do you think the HP and other performance specs in your car is calculated? with newtonian based physics. Do you think the effect of the warping of space-time by the gravity field of the planet is taking into account or the effect of movement on time? if you were putting a satellite into orbit yes because for example time passes slower up there than here on the surface of the planet, but for ordinary everyday stuff classical physics are emplyed.
May 22, 2008 8:08:21 AM
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Carlos from Spain
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Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap
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nberry said:Thuggy fast time on the Ring is under 7.40. I don't believe any of the cars you listed were under 7.40 in the hands of HvS.
Nick, Nick, Nick, thats simply becuase there are no front engined cars that can lap the ring under 7:40 unless they are modified versions. Why don't you list me lap times of customer-spec front engined cars that have achieved under 7:40 laps by any driver that is not on a the maker's payroll?
HvS has PLENTY of experience with front engined cars they just don't make the headlines because their times/performace are not that great, but if you would have taken a look at the list of cars that HvS has performeed the SuperTest on in the NRing, you would notice that they account for even more than the mid/rear engined cars he has tested.
May 22, 2008 2:51:54 PM
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nberry
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Carlos from Spain
Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap
Quote:
Carlos from Spain said:Quote:
nberry said:Thuggy fast time on the Ring is under 7.40. I don't believe any of the cars you listed were under 7.40 in the hands of HvS.
Nick, Nick, Nick, thats simply becuase there are no front engined cars that can lap the ring under 7:40 unless they are modified versions. Why don't you list me lap times of customer-spec front engined cars that have achieved under 7:40 laps by any driver that is not on a the maker's payroll?
HvS has PLENTY of experience with front engined cars they just don't make the headlines because their times/performace are not that great, but if you would have taken a look at the list of cars that HvS has performeed the SuperTest on in the NRing, you would notice that they account for even more than the mid/rear engined cars he has tested.
Carlos, I did not claim everything Newton espoused was wrong. All I said was Einstein proved Newton wrong. I did not state on which theories until Fritz called me on it. I then proceeded to show where Einstein proved Newton wrong.
I realize that there are few stock production front engines cars that are fast enough to break 7.40. But there are front engine cars that have been modified and to my knowledge I do not know of an instance that HvS was driving one achieving below 7.40.
Don't you find it curious HvS results closely track WR while driving a Porsche but in most other cars he doesn't even come close to what manufacturers said their car can do? Are we to believe that only Porsche is honest and the rest are lying? My view is HvS knows how to drive a Porsche but as to the rest of the cars, let us just say in needs more work.
May 22, 2008 3:31:04 PM
- Porsche-Jeck
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Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap
Quote:
nberry said:
But there are front engine cars that have been modified and to my knowledge I do not know of an instance that HvS was driving one achieving below 7.40.
Which specific model do you have in mind
Sportauto usually tests stock cars, not modded cars.Quote:
nberry said:
Don't you find it curious HvS results closely track WR while driving a Porsche but in most other cars he doesn't even come close to what manufacturers said their car can do? Are we to believe that only Porsche is honest and the rest are lying? My view is HvS knows how to drive a Porsche but as to the rest of the cars, let us just say in needs more work.
You're completely wrong again - just speculating
Two examples which go against your speculation:
CaymanS factory claimed - 8:11 / HvS - 8:25
Z06 factory claimed - 7:43 / HvS - 7:49
May 22, 2008 3:42:39 PM
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nberry
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Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap
I am well aware that SportAuto tests stock cars and that only proves my point.
I cannot comment on the Cayman time other than to speculate that it is a new MID-Engine Porsche which HvS does not have any experience with. Thus, his slow time and if anything that time makes my case regarding his limited driving ability other than a rear engine Porsche. (However, I will acknowledge he did better with the CGt)
The Z06 time only confirms he cannot do well with a front engine car. He knows that track better than anyone and yet cannot come close to what GM says the Z06 can do.
I cannot comment on the Cayman time other than to speculate that it is a new MID-Engine Porsche which HvS does not have any experience with. Thus, his slow time and if anything that time makes my case regarding his limited driving ability other than a rear engine Porsche. (However, I will acknowledge he did better with the CGt)
The Z06 time only confirms he cannot do well with a front engine car. He knows that track better than anyone and yet cannot come close to what GM says the Z06 can do.
May 22, 2008 4:13:20 PM
- Porsche-Jeck
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Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap
Quote:
nberry said:
The Z06 time only confirms he cannot do well with a front engine car. He knows that track better than anyone and yet cannot come close to what GM says the Z06 can do.
You're a hopeless case, Nick
If someone is able to clock a time just 6 sec slower than a racing pro (Jan Magnussen) knowing the car by heart, I'd call this outstanding driver's performance (even without considering changes in track condition, temperature/weather etc.)
As for your speculation that he's only good at driving rear-engined cars (so basically a 911 driver only
): he was much closer to the factory claim (5 sec) while driving the BoxsterS - whatever the reason may have been. It only shows that you're wrong when claiming he'd be generally closer to W.R's times than any other factory drivers' times But maybe you'll never understand that a 5 sec gap in the Green Hell is almost close to nothing...
The pic from Magnussen's lap might give you a clue though, that it's not like your familiar drive to the next Starbucks
May 22, 2008 4:19:41 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap
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nberry said:I realize that there are few stock production front engines cars that are fast enough to break 7.40. But there are front engine cars that have been modified and to my knowledge I do not know of an instance that HvS was driving one achieving below 7.40.
Nick, since you imply that there he has tested "modified" production cars and failed to achieve sub-7:40 lap times when those cars were capable, why don't you first indulge us with a list of those modified front-engined cars that HvS has posted laps on, and of those post how many were capable of doing sub-7:40 with other drivers under the same conditions, so that we can see that HvS with al his NRing and fornt-engined cars experience consistently scores underaverage. Thats the only way one can arrive to your conclusion that HvS can't drive a front-engine car in the NRing well enough, so you better post those numbers if you want to be taken seriously.
May 22, 2008 4:27:38 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap
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nberry said:
Carlos, I did not claim everything Newton espoused was wrong. All I said was Einstein proved Newton wrong. I did not state on which theories until Fritz called me on it. I then proceeded to show where Einstein proved Newton wrong.
It was Jeff (in SF) who first reffered to Newton's laws of physics in relation to car handling dynamics, and you said to Fritz that Newton was proven wrong by Einstein... well in terms of driving dynamics, Newton's Laws of physics are perfectly vaild and if fact the ones that are used for that purpose. Of course "some" of the things Newton postulated along his lifetime were proven wrong later, did you know that Einstein was also proven wrong himself in many aspects, a Belgian priest proved Einstein wrong in relation to the non-static state of the universe for example, does that mean relativety is wrong? no.
May 22, 2008 4:51:46 PM
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nberry
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Carlos from Spain
Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap
My response to Fritz regarding Newton had nothing to do with driving dynamics. Never entered my mind.
Your right regarding HvS in that I cannot produce any times he has done under 7.40 at the Ring in a front engine car. That is my exact point.
Porsche-jeck, face it Europeans put a lot of stock in HvS driving but when you review his record he falls far short in EVERY car. It is explained away by stating his test are accurate while everyone else is lying.
I view it differently.
Your right regarding HvS in that I cannot produce any times he has done under 7.40 at the Ring in a front engine car. That is my exact point.
Porsche-jeck, face it Europeans put a lot of stock in HvS driving but when you review his record he falls far short in EVERY car. It is explained away by stating his test are accurate while everyone else is lying.
I view it differently.
May 22, 2008 4:59:51 PM
- thuggy
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Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap
Quote:
Porsche-Jeck said:Quote:
nberry said:
Don't you find it curious HvS results closely track WR while driving a Porsche but in most other cars he doesn't even come close to what manufacturers said their car can do? Are we to believe that only Porsche is honest and the rest are lying? My view is HvS knows how to drive a Porsche but as to the rest of the cars, let us just say in needs more work.
You're completely wrong again - just speculating
Two examples which go against your speculation:
CaymanS factory claimed - 8:11 / HvS - 8:25
Z06 factory claimed - 7:43 / HvS - 7:49
Also isnt the factory claim for the 997 Turbo 7:40 and HvS at 7:54?
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