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Jun 8, 2006 1:41:00 PM
- MattTheCarNut
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Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!
"Should the manufacturers be required to qualify owners before selling these cars to them?"
No. Duh.
"And should they automatically be held liable when they sell supercars to owners who can't handle them?"
No. Duh, again.
""McClellan says, "No, Porsche should only be liable because this car was defective." But then he adds, "It is defective, however, if the risks of its design outweigh the benefits. If its power and handling characteristics make it too dangerous for the average driver without training or instruction, then it is defective.""
This guy is an [censored] and he contradicts himself in the article. I can't believe someone can sue Porsche over this.
"Porsche should be liable because it sold a defective vehicle to Ben Keaton."
No. Someone, lock up this lawyer.
No. Duh.
"And should they automatically be held liable when they sell supercars to owners who can't handle them?"
No. Duh, again.
""McClellan says, "No, Porsche should only be liable because this car was defective." But then he adds, "It is defective, however, if the risks of its design outweigh the benefits. If its power and handling characteristics make it too dangerous for the average driver without training or instruction, then it is defective.""
This guy is an [censored] and he contradicts himself in the article. I can't believe someone can sue Porsche over this.
"Porsche should be liable because it sold a defective vehicle to Ben Keaton."
No. Someone, lock up this lawyer.
Jun 8, 2006 3:52:01 PM
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Porsche930S
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Jun 9, 2006 12:34:40 AM
- Mike S
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Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!
About Bens accident. Ignore the attorneys blustery claims for a moment about the car being too fast, blah blah.
Ben managed to avoid the Ferrari by braking and steering, thats the good news.
The bad news is that he couldnt slow the car down when he got onto the grass.
Maybe the ABS brakes worked great on the pavement, but once onto the grass, they didnt slow him down enough. And some ABS brakes do not respond as usual to suggested ABS brake use techniques if a vehicle is on a loose surface like dirt and grass.
And the track had moved that section of the concrete barrier that Ben hit closer towards the track - to make room for a play area.
If anyone here has a CGT manual, I am curious if they suggest different braking techniques if the vehicle is on grass or dirt instead of pavement.
Ben managed to avoid the Ferrari by braking and steering, thats the good news.
The bad news is that he couldnt slow the car down when he got onto the grass.
Maybe the ABS brakes worked great on the pavement, but once onto the grass, they didnt slow him down enough. And some ABS brakes do not respond as usual to suggested ABS brake use techniques if a vehicle is on a loose surface like dirt and grass.
And the track had moved that section of the concrete barrier that Ben hit closer towards the track - to make room for a play area.
If anyone here has a CGT manual, I am curious if they suggest different braking techniques if the vehicle is on grass or dirt instead of pavement.
Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!
Ben's death was a tragic accident that is only made worse by the eternal litigation. I understand how this has come to pass but it still sickens me. Attorneys that pursue this type of case merely contribute to the common misperception that all of them are amoral slime.
Perhaps we would all be safer if we were all pushed to work in a stroller by our mothers...but I really prefer driving my Porsche, even if it is purportedly "defective".
mcdelaug
Perhaps we would all be safer if we were all pushed to work in a stroller by our mothers...but I really prefer driving my Porsche, even if it is purportedly "defective".
mcdelaug
Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!
Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
..If anyone here has a CGT manual, I am curious if they suggest different braking techniques if the vehicle is on grass or dirt instead of pavement.
Makes no difference Jim @ such high speed.. CGT or not, at that speed you are in the hands of god.
Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!
WHAT!?... okay.. so he is saying that the CGT is too difficult to drive and more tailhappy than say--- a bmw? who is this [censored] kidding!?
Yeah okay.... it's unsafe at high speed? (tell me why people drive it without any problems on the autobahn and on the track?)
The guy didn't disclose that he had spun the car- him spinning that car makes him a nutty driver basically?? what?! isn't that a slippery slope?
And ur suing the ferrari driver?
I'm sure all of these guys had to sign releases before they went to the track- if so, this entire issue is moot.
Yeah okay.... it's unsafe at high speed? (tell me why people drive it without any problems on the autobahn and on the track?)
The guy didn't disclose that he had spun the car- him spinning that car makes him a nutty driver basically?? what?! isn't that a slippery slope?
And ur suing the ferrari driver?
I'm sure all of these guys had to sign releases before they went to the track- if so, this entire issue is moot.
Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!
Guys, I hate to say this but our supersportscar monsters and this includes especially the Carrera GT, are No toys, they can be serious weapons in the wrong hands.
Don't get me wrong: Ben surely was a great person from what I've read in various posts and we all who had to "deal" with him will miss him, he was a direct type of person but also a very honest and trustable one.
BUT: he was no professional race driver and maybe he just underestimated the capabilities of such a car.
On the other hand, the accident happened on a closed circuit, so blaming him of any reckless driving or whatever would be pretty stupid too. I suppose all this lawyer talk is actually about money but like it or not, I'd say that this accident was just a very unfortunate combination of various unfortunate events. I know, I know...easy to say if you're alive but personally, I think nobody is to blame for this accident. Ben wasn't a beginner, track racing is always a risk and his co-pilot C.Rudl surely wasn't a beginner too, he knew the risk of riding with someone else in his car, sorry to say that. Nobody can be THAT naive.
The Carrera GT is NOT a dangerous car, this is BS. Lawyers try to earn money with their claims, nothing new with that.
But of course the Carrera GT isn't a toy either, it is a serious sportscar with race car genes. Some people tend to forget it, especially when they play around with their toys.
I did two years of professional rallye racing over 20 years ago. This is a long time ago and I'm not sure that this qualifies me as a pro driver anymore, a lot of things have changed and I didn't have any professional training since that time, so I'm probably an slightly above "average" capability driver now. The Carrera GT wouldn't be the car for me, this is a car you have to take seriously, a car which you need to respect and to understand it's capabilities and it's limitations. This is no car you can fool around with without being "punished" and this is no car you can just keep your foot on the throttle and hope that you're not going to loose control.
I said it before and I'll say it again, even with the risk of starting a passionate discussion again: the car doesn't make people a better driver but the car can kill them.
This is why I never understood all those "not enough power", "engine tuning", etc. discussions, especially on the 911 forums. 95% of the drivers can't even cope with the available power I'm afraid. And if people think that driving one-handed in a drift through traffic makes one a good driver, well...they didn't understand anything about sportcars and their dangers.
Bottom line is: manufacturers build these cars to show what they're capable of. They usually are top of the line and so should be the driver's capabilities. The ONLY thing manufacturer of such cars are to blame for is the fact that they don't offer a driver training lesson with the car, to make people understand what they're dealing with. But maybe they don't do it for a reason: because most drivers think that if they succeeded in life by being able to afford such a car, they can't be bad drivers either.
People just have to learn where their limits are before they learn where the car's limits are.
Like I said before: believing that a car makes you the better driver is a very dangerous approach into the sportscar world.
I've done crazy things before but whenever I'm sitting in one of these babies (and they're usually not as fast as the Carrera GT), I take a deep breath and think to myself: be careful, this is no toy. Yes, I enjoy my cars a lot and they are actually adult toys. But I have a much higher respect towards them than I would have towards a playstation for example.
Sorry for my ranting, just wanted to vent some steam.
Don't get me wrong: Ben surely was a great person from what I've read in various posts and we all who had to "deal" with him will miss him, he was a direct type of person but also a very honest and trustable one.
BUT: he was no professional race driver and maybe he just underestimated the capabilities of such a car.
On the other hand, the accident happened on a closed circuit, so blaming him of any reckless driving or whatever would be pretty stupid too. I suppose all this lawyer talk is actually about money but like it or not, I'd say that this accident was just a very unfortunate combination of various unfortunate events. I know, I know...easy to say if you're alive but personally, I think nobody is to blame for this accident. Ben wasn't a beginner, track racing is always a risk and his co-pilot C.Rudl surely wasn't a beginner too, he knew the risk of riding with someone else in his car, sorry to say that. Nobody can be THAT naive.
The Carrera GT is NOT a dangerous car, this is BS. Lawyers try to earn money with their claims, nothing new with that.
But of course the Carrera GT isn't a toy either, it is a serious sportscar with race car genes. Some people tend to forget it, especially when they play around with their toys.
I did two years of professional rallye racing over 20 years ago. This is a long time ago and I'm not sure that this qualifies me as a pro driver anymore, a lot of things have changed and I didn't have any professional training since that time, so I'm probably an slightly above "average" capability driver now. The Carrera GT wouldn't be the car for me, this is a car you have to take seriously, a car which you need to respect and to understand it's capabilities and it's limitations. This is no car you can fool around with without being "punished" and this is no car you can just keep your foot on the throttle and hope that you're not going to loose control.
I said it before and I'll say it again, even with the risk of starting a passionate discussion again: the car doesn't make people a better driver but the car can kill them.
This is why I never understood all those "not enough power", "engine tuning", etc. discussions, especially on the 911 forums. 95% of the drivers can't even cope with the available power I'm afraid. And if people think that driving one-handed in a drift through traffic makes one a good driver, well...they didn't understand anything about sportcars and their dangers.
Bottom line is: manufacturers build these cars to show what they're capable of. They usually are top of the line and so should be the driver's capabilities. The ONLY thing manufacturer of such cars are to blame for is the fact that they don't offer a driver training lesson with the car, to make people understand what they're dealing with. But maybe they don't do it for a reason: because most drivers think that if they succeeded in life by being able to afford such a car, they can't be bad drivers either.
People just have to learn where their limits are before they learn where the car's limits are.
Like I said before: believing that a car makes you the better driver is a very dangerous approach into the sportscar world.
I've done crazy things before but whenever I'm sitting in one of these babies (and they're usually not as fast as the Carrera GT), I take a deep breath and think to myself: be careful, this is no toy. Yes, I enjoy my cars a lot and they are actually adult toys. But I have a much higher respect towards them than I would have towards a playstation for example.
Sorry for my ranting, just wanted to vent some steam.
Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!
Christian, I agree fully here with you! Regarding this case, I am a lawyer and I will not comment this case... But, Christian's comment regarding BS is pretty accurate...
Also, regarding new cars with big power and small degree of electronical help(example: new GT3 or GT3RS)-most of their buyers do not know how to drive and control these cars... Number of crashed new GT3s in last two months(in hands of car press members and Porsche instructors)?
You see my point? You need to be responsible and know what you are buying... Fast sportscar in wrong hands is weapon! Deadly one!
IMO, case against Ben's family is WRONG thing but, some lawyers are ass....s!
Also, regarding new cars with big power and small degree of electronical help(example: new GT3 or GT3RS)-most of their buyers do not know how to drive and control these cars... Number of crashed new GT3s in last two months(in hands of car press members and Porsche instructors)?
You see my point? You need to be responsible and know what you are buying... Fast sportscar in wrong hands is weapon! Deadly one!
IMO, case against Ben's family is WRONG thing but, some lawyers are ass....s!
Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!
Quote:
KresoF1 said:
Fast sportscar in wrong hands is weapon! Deadly one!
Very well said.
Unfortunately some (especially younger) people don't understand this. I really wish car manufacturers would offer a mandatory driver ed training for such cars, nothing special, only something to remind the buyers of the possible dangers and limitations (of the car AND the driver ).
Jun 9, 2006 12:19:36 PM
- Porsche-Jeck
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Reply to:
RC
Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!
Quote:
RC said:Quote:
KresoF1 said:
Fast sportscar in wrong hands is weapon! Deadly one!
Very well said.
100% agreed. Talking about weapons and mandatory training: I think it's an irony that in a lot of countries (incl. the US) everybody can buy a real weapon without a mandatory instruction/training how to use it and nobody seems to complain about that
If you are not aware of the inherent risks of driving a supercar at the limit on a racetrack, you better stay with your Playstation. If multiple unfortunate circumstances come together when you're cruising at highspeed (that's how I interprete the accident) you're at the hands of God - in any car!
The claim aigainst Porsche has no substance at all IMO - just look at the remote and ridiculous concept the plaintiff's lawyer wants to create by claiming "A car is defective if the risks of its design outweigh the benefits"
Using this weird logic any new bangleized BMW is "defective" because the health risks attached to these cars (the design causing me to vomit
) clearly outweighs their benefits...Sorry for the ugly words but I just want to demonstrate how absurd this BS is (I'm sure you can find more examples of this kind if you think about it 
)What makes me really angry is that the loved ones of the accident's victims have to suffer again due to the court process (they may have to attend as witnesses, they are confronted with articels in the newspapers etc.)
It's a crazy world we're living in
Jun 9, 2006 1:29:19 PM
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Porsche930S
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Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!
Quote:
Porsche-Jeck said:Quote:
RC said:Quote:
KresoF1 said:
Using this weird logic any new bangleized BMW is "defective" because the health risks attached to these cars (the design causing me to vomit
Nice!
I am almost at a loss of words for the ignorance of this lawyer. He is playing with words to minipulate the system.
Jun 9, 2006 1:36:37 PM
- Joost
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Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!
Quote:
Joost said:
Another point... I thought Ben's car crashed into the barrier frontally? If th car got out of control because it was tail happy, how come it skidded on the grass and whent straight ahead?
-Joost-
Joost the car hit the barrier along the right side. It was almost a direct hit along the entire right side.
I will not comment on Ben's case but the comments regarding respecting high perf. sprt cars are very good. However respecting the car is not enough. I have been in the defense personal injury business for 30 years. I have witnessed the carnage of high speed collisions. It is something you can never get used to seeing and is unforgetable.
Most of the people in these collisions thought they had control but something unexpected happened which cause the collision. Public streets and highways are fraught with unexpected hazards. No matter how much you respect the car and how well you drive everyday we encounter the unexpected. Fortunately most of the time between the car and driver collisions are avoided. Unfortunately, the margin decreases with speed.
My view is there is no safe place on public streets to test the limits of the car and those that do (including myself) are doing it with our heart and not our head. It is stupid and irrresponsible not only to ourselves but to our families.
The proper venue to test and enjoy our cars is on a track BUT with the appropriate instruction and safeguards. I believe all manufacturers should give mandatory training regarding the dynamic's and handling of high perf. cars as well crisis instruction. The cost should be borne by the buyer of the car. If you want to play you should pay.
I have a lot more to say but I will not bore you.
Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!
If such a thing as "mandatory training" is ever imposed, it'll just be another thing for attorneys to find fault...the vehicle's not defective, they had "improper training!" BTW, we all pay the bills for such litigation when we buy our vehicles. If the lawsuits keep coming, Porsche might just say that the vehicles are "not intended" for any track use. Just wait and see..
Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!
Here in the land of unbridled rights and " freedom " , you get a drivers license if you can make a three-point turnaround wothout knocking over a lampost. Once you slap on a fart-can exhaust and black out the windows on mama's Honda Accord , you are instantly Micheal Schumacher on the neighborhood roads. These newbie race drivers are the ones who imperil more fellow drivers on the road than all the US owners of all the cars with 400 or more factory HP . Of course , BY FAR number one on the dangerous list , are multi tasking drivers ( plus 10 % of people have adult ADD ) in beater cars weaving in and out .
Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!
Quote:
MKW said:
Here in the land of unbridled rights and " freedom " , you get a drivers license if you can make a three-point turnaround wothout knocking over a lampost.
@MKW Your premise has one error. You assume that hazardous drivers have drivers licenses!
A friend of mine is a county sheriff. One evening I did a ride along with him. Of 7 traffic stops we made - and Nick will love this - we had no real probable cause for any of them, just a hunch based on drivers looks or the car.
All of the 7 were driving with suspended licenses and three were above the legal limit for intoxication.
So much for drivers licenses as a garuntee of anything.
Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!
Why stop at training? Why shouldn't the factory provide a properly trained driver to chauffer the owners around?
This is such BS, cars are dangerous, accidents happen. This is nothing more than attorney's looking at the situation through dollar sign studded glasses. The object of the game is to sue everyone that has any remote connection to the incident with the hopes that some of them will settle out of court. These lawyers have no interest in making the cars safer, reducing accidents, or punishing the manufacturer. This is about making money, nothing more, nothing less.
This is such BS, cars are dangerous, accidents happen. This is nothing more than attorney's looking at the situation through dollar sign studded glasses. The object of the game is to sue everyone that has any remote connection to the incident with the hopes that some of them will settle out of court. These lawyers have no interest in making the cars safer, reducing accidents, or punishing the manufacturer. This is about making money, nothing more, nothing less.
Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!
Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
@MKW Your premise has one error. You assume that hazardous drivers have drivers licenses!
Here in California, LOTS of our drivers wouldn't be able to get a first driver's license anyway , as they entered our fair state " unofficially " from south of the border .
Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!
Quote:
MKW said:
Here in the land of unbridled rights and " freedom " , you get a drivers license if you can make a three-point turnaround wothout knocking over a lampost. Once you slap on a fart-can exhaust and black out the windows on mama's Honda Accord , you are instantly Micheal Schumacher on the neighborhood roads. These newbie race drivers are the ones who imperil more fellow drivers on the road than all the US owners of all the cars with 400 or more factory HP . Of course , BY FAR number one on the dangerous list , are multi tasking drivers ( plus 10 % of people have adult ADD ) in beater cars weaving in and out .
Absolutely
They don't hand out cars like that to just anyone....
And guys w/less to prove in life....and a lot to lose if anything goes wrong...tend to drive in a manner reflecting that risk/reward ethos....
Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!
Quote:
RC said:The ONLY thing manufacturer of such cars are to blame for is the fact that they don't offer a driver training lesson with the car . . .
i guess the boss changed his mind?:)
i agree with your post except that this statement needs clarification.
porsche DOES offer driver training.
by saying "with the car" i assume you mean free of charge?
there is costs associated with driver training so to offer it free of charge they would have to up the price of the car to cover the additional costs.
this would put them at a competitive disadvantage with the other oem's that did not offer driver training free of charge.
what happens if they don't use cgt's, which i imagine would be cost prohibitive, in the training?
then they could be held liable for not training in the model sold.
also where do you draw the line on cars that require driver training?
above a specified hp? at a specified power to weight ratio?
dependent on the top speed of the car?
nick mentions that it should be mandatory.
mandatory per gov't regulation? or just mandatory to
purchase the vehicle from the oem?
best
jeff
Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!
Quote:
JimFlat6 said:Quote:
MKW said:
Here in the land of unbridled rights and " freedom " , you get a drivers license if you can make a three-point turnaround wothout knocking over a lampost.
@MKW Your premise has one error. You assume that hazardous drivers have drivers licenses!
A friend of mine is a county sheriff. One evening I did a ride along with him. Of 7 traffic stops we made - and Nick will love this - we had no real probable cause for any of them, just a hunch based on drivers looks or the car.
All of the 7 were driving with suspended licenses and three were above the legal limit for intoxication.
So much for drivers licenses as a garuntee of anything.
Jim, quite pleased to hear that law enforcement still practices profiling and judgement in making traffic stops....
Have several colleagues who routinely drive briskly in 450hp++ cars w/no front plates and no radar detectors....yet have no tickets/accids
...and when they've chatted w/an officer (often at a light, etc) it's a cordial discussion about their latest car...gotta love SF region, where many CHP, and even SFPD, are car guys who know latest models and want to hear exhaust note
Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!
Quote:
nberry said:
Most of the people in these collisions thought they had control but something unexpected happened which cause the collision. Public streets and highways are fraught with unexpected hazards. No matter how much you respect the car and how well you drive everyday we encounter the unexpected. Fortunately most of the time between the car and driver collisions are avoided. Unfortunately, the margin decreases with speed.
My view is there is no safe place on public streets to test the limits of the car and those that do (including myself) are doing it with our heart and not our head. It is stupid and irrresponsible not only to ourselves but to our families.
The proper venue to test and enjoy our cars is on a track BUT with the appropriate instruction and safeguards. I believe all manufacturers should give mandatory training regarding the dynamic's and handling of high perf. cars as well crisis instruction. The cost should be borne by the buyer of the car. If you want to play you should pay.
After Ben's accident, I have realized the risk of:
1) driving, even the safest streetcar at present, above 30 mph on streets lined with utility poles and whatnot.
2) driving on an FIA approved racetrack that may be modified against FIA regulations and may lack quantity/quality emergency personnel/equipment without due notice to participants.
3) driving/being a passenger in a car on the track that does not incorporate maximum FIA safety precautions.
Mark Webber says even F1 testing/qualifying days are not up to the standards of race-days:
http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/news/story?series=6&id=2435825
Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!
Quote:
MKW said:Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
@MKW Your premise has one error. You assume that hazardous drivers have drivers licenses!
Here in California, LOTS of our drivers wouldn't be able to get a first driver's license anyway , as they entered our fair state " unofficially " from south of the border .
Build a wall and throw them out. I never understood how a person who came into the US illegally could call Americans ungrateful for not caring about their contribution. That's like me washing your car without you asking me and then demanding payment.
Oh, and once you throw them out, build a wall and post minutemen with .50 cals all over the southern border. Should make for some interesting news reports.
Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!
Jeff, if its govenment mandate they could provide the car manufacturers with immunity against these type of lawsuits. There is precedent for this.
BTW, assuming there wasn't any immunity, if the DE could save one life wouldn't it be worth it? Any argument by a car manufacturer about cost would not be received well by a jury.
BTW, assuming there wasn't any immunity, if the DE could save one life wouldn't it be worth it? Any argument by a car manufacturer about cost would not be received well by a jury.
Jun 9, 2006 11:31:45 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!
Quote:
nberry said:
BTW, assuming there wasn't any immunity, if the DE could save one life wouldn't it be worth it? Any argument by a car manufacturer about cost would not be received well by a jury.
This coming from someone who doesn't even flinch at the idea that in the year 2006, the maker of his his new $100k+ car w/ 500HP didn't feel like spending the R&D on side airbags (which are proven to save not one life but thousands), not even as an option... oh, the hipocresy...
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