Crown

RC:

Austrian police can "estimate" the speed, they don't necessarily need proof.

 

Ah! Must have studied at the Mozambican School of Traffic Management.

In America I use my Valentine One radar detector and am able to drive in an adaptive way like RC describes.  I can totally relate to adjusting ones speed like he mentiones.  I drive very fast anytime I feel it is safe - a Turbo S would suit me just fine - it is all about where you are at the time.

When I am at home in Europe I am either in Pal Andorra, on the Costa Del Sol in Spain (Soto Grande) or in Vienna.  I drive the family Lexus Hybrid RX400 with Andorran plates.  Outside of Andorra you can simply ignore speed cameras and enjoy (toss) the mail when it comes to Andorra.  Andorra is my favorite place - mountains, no taxes, NO EU and no speeding tickets in Europe by camera.  Curious what my European friends think of Andorra?  RC - ever been through there?

Be safe RC - it has been my unfortunate experiance that no matter how good you are someone will do something stupid which you can not avoid.  Don't put your self or family in such a position.  It sounds like you understand that - have fun!

Dang - thread hijack warning - YES it is lousy that Porsche seems to Juice the cars for testing - hope that is not true.

zzboba:

Back to topic...   ...is it assured that PAG's press embargo is due to AutoBild's 911-Boxster comparison? I would rather assume that they are very unhappy about the Horst v Saurma's assumption in the previous issue of Sportauto that Porsche press cars are tuned/overpowered AND engine's motronic can identify if it's a test stand check (and then reduce the power to standard so it can't be detected that it's actually a tweaked rocket engine).

 

Soenke, according to my source Porsche engine's ECU can indeed identify if it is a Dyno stand test or not. Still, IMHO it is not the main reason for press embargo-for some magazines-not for all.

KresoF1:

zzboba:

Back to topic...   ...is it assured that PAG's press embargo is due to AutoBild's 911-Boxster comparison? I would rather assume that they are very unhappy about the Horst v Saurma's assumption in the previous issue of Sportauto that Porsche press cars are tuned/overpowered AND engine's motronic can identify if it's a test stand check (and then reduce the power to standard so it can't be detected that it's actually a tweaked rocket engine).

 

Soenke, according to my source Porsche engine's ECU can indeed identify if it is a Dyno stand test or not. Still, IMHO it is not the main reason for press embargo-for some magazines-not for all.

 Same info here (not from Porsche, supplier, so probably not only possible for Porsche)

It is actually pretty easy to circumvent a possible dyno "detection", by not using a conventional dyno. There are systems on the market which allow the calculation of the engine power based on sensors and a nice algorithm. These systems aren't 100% accurate but they could tell 550 horses from 650 horses. 

According to Sport Auto, BMW and Mercedes cheated. Big time. Porsche was only suspected of cheating and of course it can't be excluded that they did but I doubt that this incident has something to do with the current press "embargo" towards certain car magazines. Maybe Porsche is just p.ss.d because they compare cars which shouldn't be compared, like that idiotic comparison of a Panamera 4S to the new BMW M5 or the Panamera GTS to the Audi S7.

On the other hand, Porsche needs to understand that car magazines, reviewers but especially customers have a certain expectation when it comes to Porsche cars. Putting a 250 hp engine into a 2 ton car isn't quite Porsche-like. It is also difficult to comprehend that a 991 Carrera S Cabriolet can easily pass 140k EUR with some options.

The competition for Porsche has grown very strong and people do not expect Porsche cars to be at par with the competition but...better. Faster. Sportier.

Take the Panamera Turbo S for example, a car I ordered and for a very good reason: For 60k EUR more than the BMW M5, I would have expected superior power, like 600 horses or so. It didn't happen.

Look at the Panamera GTS: A very nice and sporty sedan for over 140k EUR with some options. C'mon, this is BMW M5 and E63 AMG territory. Yes, the Panamera is one of the sportiest sedans in the world but still...there is kind of a disproportion between the performance and the price tag.

A well optioned Boxster S is around 90k EUR. Seriously? I can get a C63 AMG Coupe PP for the same money, a car which blows the Boxster S to pieces from 0-200 kph (aprox. 3-4 seconds difference and this is huge) and is really fun to drive. Where is the exceptional value of the Porsche?

A Cayenne Diesel is around 90k EUR with some options, you can even spend 100k EUR or more on a Cayenne Diesel. This is ridiculous.

If Porsche feels that the press isn't treating them fair, they need to up the game. A lot. 

Put 600 horses into the next generation 991 Turbo and destroy the competition. Put a monster Diesel with 400 hp into the Cayenne or Panamera and destroy the competition. Just two simple examples.

Like I said before, people have certain expectations regarding the brand Porsche and the competition is extremely tough. So do something about it.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S (at Porsche right now), BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

RC:

On the other hand, Porsche needs to understand that car magazines, reviewers but especially customers have a certain expectation when it comes to Porsche cars. Putting a 250 hp engine into a 2 ton car isn't quite Porsche-like. It is also difficult to comprehend that a 991 Carrera S Cabriolet can easily pass 140k EUR with some options.

The competition for Porsche has grown very strong and people do not expect Porsche cars to be at par with the competition but...better. Faster. Sportier.

Take the Panamera Turbo S for example, a car I ordered and for a very good reason: For 60k EUR more than the BMW M5, I would have expected superior power, like 600 horses or so. It didn't happen.

Look at the Panamera GTS: A very nice and sporty sedan for over 140k EUR with some options. C'mon, this is BMW M5 and E63 AMG territory. Yes, the Panamera is one of the sportiest sedans in the world but still...there is kind of a disproportion between the performance and the price tag.

A well optioned Boxster S is around 90k EUR. Seriously? I can get a C63 AMG Coupe PP for the same money, a car which blows the Boxster S to pieces from 0-200 kph (aprox. 3-4 seconds difference and this is huge) and is really fun to drive. Where is the exceptional value of the Porsche?

A Cayenne Diesel is around 90k EUR with some options, you can even spend 100k EUR or more on a Cayenne Diesel. This is ridiculous.

If Porsche feels that the press isn't treating them fair, they need to up the game. A lot. 

Put 600 horses into the next generation 991 Turbo and destroy the competition. Put a monster Diesel with 400 hp into the Cayenne or Panamera and destroy the competition. Just two simple examples.

Like I said before, people have certain expectations regarding the brand Porsche and the competition is extremely tough. So do something about it.

This is really the crux of the matter. Some of us have alluded to this issue in past posts (with varied success in getting our points across).

Just yesterday I was reading an article (Reuters) saying how SUV's/ Sedan's are damaging the Porsche purist opinion of Porsche and how it is "sofetening" its sportcar image.

Regardless of whether you believe/agree with this opinion or not, the fact is that Porsche seem to be "disrespectful" (for a lack of a better word) toward its sportscar heritage. It is perceived to be disregarding its sportscar image in exchange for short term  sales and profits. 

The company seems to be caught in a vicious cycle: It claims to be a sportscar company, but seeks to attain sales targets (and revenues) that are not compatible with sportscar manufacturers in this economic climate.  

It all makes perfect sense from a (short-term) business point of view, but there will be a price to pay, and we are beginning to see that price raise its ugly head. 

One of the thing Porsche could do, is decide that for every townecar/minivan or VW engined clone that they market, a serious sportscar model is introduced right after.  In addition, they need to tone down the green/tree hugging aspect , and concentrate on performance. These are the things that fill little boy's heads with dreams. These are the things that generate posters of cars on walls. These are the things that develop your client base for tomorrow.

RC:

Put 600 horses into the next generation 991 Turbo and destroy the competition. Put a monster Diesel with 400 hp into the Cayenne or Panamera and destroy the competition. Just two simple examples.

Like I said before, people have certain expectations regarding the brand Porsche and the competition is extremely tough. So do something about it.

Christian, do you really belive that potential 600ps 991 Turbo or 400ps Diesel Panamera would be priced at the normal level?  I do not think so. If we look at Porsche's price politics we could assume that Pana monster Diesel would cost around 120K € in Germany as base price. With options that could end at 140K €...

Porsche is pricing their cars with "brand tax" IMHO-if you want to drive a Porsche be prepared to pay more then for a competitor product. Are Porsche cars offering really that much more then competition these days? Hmm... 991 is a excellent sportscar, despite its price tag(991CS with X51 and some nice options-150K € in Germany). Panamera is only as Turbo/Turbo S a solid(solid with very small s) offer. Normal versions of Panamera and Cayenne are overpriced. Would you choose Cayenne Diesel or VW Touareg V8 TDI for less money? Only a die hard Porsche fan would choose Cayenne.

My point is that Porsche do not need to do something radical in sportscar segment(991) since forthcoming 991 GT3 and 991 Turbo will be faster then all competitors and cheaper then 98% of them. In Panamera and Cayenne segment things are different, same goes for future Macan. But, Porsche is not lonely here-BMW seems to do the same things with some models. Look at new M550d X drive-that car is way overpriced. You can buy Audi S6 for 15K less in Germany and S6 can do all things better then M550d X drive.

Whilst I agree with some of what you say, I disagree with your sportscar comments..

Yes, the 991 will be a marked improvement, but Porsche must move on from being just a 911 sportscar manufacturer. (I know this is going to get all the 911 fans in a huff and the usual comments will resurface). The truth is that 911 is getting its rear-end whipped in sportcar racing (don't disregard this because it is professional racing- a lot of the 911 reputation was created on the race tracks). For those that are skeptical of this, I suggest you tune into the Le Mans 24 H this weekend for confirmation (on performance).

I know many of you consider Ferrari, Lambo, etc to be "exotic" cars not in the same class as the 911, but I have a slightly different view. Every week -end , the 911 is taking on Lambo's and Ferrari 458's on the race tracks and are loosing. The general public see this and furthermore see them as direct competitors.

If Porsche is going to expose itself to this comparison then it needs to have a competitive sportscar product (in all senses of the word) so that it does not suffer the humiliation of a real shellacking every weekend.

Porsche need the 960 desperately. For racing reasons (as a competitve Motorsport product), as well as image reasons (so that it is not seen by future generations as a minivan/sedan manufacturer that also builds some retro sportscars)

@Kreso, RE    "Brand Tax"    You may have brilliantly identified Porsche's secret marketing concept.

"Brand Tax"  is especially accurate regarding base levels of equipment, performance levels between models, options that should be standard and options that are ridiculously over priced. A Carrera S doesnt seem to really offer that much thrill over a base Carrera..But you gotta have the S if you know what I mean.

And for the hell of it does anyone really know why a owner has to look at so many switch blanks on a porsche's center console even after ordering every option that uses a switch?  

@Spideridol, RE   911's and not winning. Its really a pathetic situation. Sadly it makes Porsche look like a premium truck and sedan maker that uses nolstagia to also sell some 911 looking sports cars. I dont see the 918 capturing any trophys soon except potentially one for most complex car ever on display at a auto show. I hope the 991 based GT3's and 2's will solve this but I'm not holding my breath.

Who knows, but if thing go very wrong in the Euro Zone Porsche may have to start unlocking some HP and adding heavy amounts of free options to sell their cars.

I reckon Porsche are ripping people off with their pricing policy. Since the overwhelming success of the 997, Porsche have decided to increase their prices drastically. A fully spec'd 991 S cab with some not too nice options hits the £107k barrier, this is just too much for a 911 based on the amount of cars Porsche throws out. I have never considered the 911 to be a direct competitor to the 458 or MP12, Porsche need another sports car in that segment, a real mid-engined sports car to compete effectively with those cars. Would I buy a 991, definitely yes for reason of reliability and comfort, but for some other factors i.e exclusivity, McLaren, Ferrari and Lambo beat the 911 has down ! And pls dont comup with the GT2 RS or GT3's...they are not in the same league as MFL 

Jim_in_Iowa:
Can we really use GT racing for a valid comparison? I'm not completely sure about the ACO rules, but in ALMS GT there's significant "adjustments" made to each platform to "equalize" their performance. It's primarily how much extra weight each car carries, and what the size of the air intake restrictors. Not only are these set at the beginning of the season, but in ALMS they'll change then during the season. I've heard it said the adjustments for BMW favor them to keep them in GT2 racing, and of late, the 997 RSR has been set at a disadvantage. Remember 2007 when the RS Spyder was regularly defeating the Audi diesels (at least in the U.S.), the next season the Spyder got a 60 HP decrease due to air restrictors.

Actually, the current 997 based RSR has had substantial BOP breaks in order to remain competitive (and not with much success). It has just had a further 0.3mm restrictor break  and is now running 0.6mm bigger restrictors than those that were originally in the rule table. It has also just recently been allowed a bigger front splitter and a higher rear wing. Even with all these breaks, it still continues to battle against the speed and handling of the Corvettes and the Ferrari's.

This is the first time that I recall the 911 having to receive breaks to attempt to be competitive. It has always been the competitors that have recieved the breaks to compete against the 911.

Also- Have a look at the LM entry list. See how many teams have bought and are racing 458's. (in GTE-pro there are 4 Ferrari to 2 Porsches- at Le Mans!) This is the same in nearky every single racing series (that is not one make). Porsche was famous for making a business model out of racing. Where is that success today? Ferrari have outsold tthem 2- or 3 to one.

Guys, my point is and was: I don't care about the Porsche "brand tax" as long as the cars deliver what I expect from them. Unfortunately, this isn't always the case. Porsche is a very profitable company, indeed but this is also the reason why I think that they could afford to build superior models, not equal models (compared to the competition).

If they charge 140k EUR for a well equipped 991 Carrera S Cab, so be it. Just make sure that this car is ahead of the competition and by "ahead of the competition" I mean only one single feature: Performance.

The biggest disappointment are actually the Panamera GTS and the Turbo: Two fantastic Porsche cars but not really at par with the competition. Yes, handling is amazing. Power output however, for the price range we are talking about, is disappointing. Why should I lie? If the new BMW M5 would have AWD, I would have chosen it over the Panamera Turbo S and I would have saved 60k EUR in the process. At least (BMW is a rebate king...). Why do you guys think I passed on the Cayenne Turbo and went for a X5M instead?

I love Porsche and the brand, I love the people working there, they do a very good job but sometimes I get the feeling that they don't realize how close the competition has come.

Porsche should offer entry level models, no doubt about it. They should however be competitive and especially their top models should annihilate the competition performance-wise.

I expect from Porsche to be ahead of the competition, performance-wise.

I am curious how Porsche's sports car strategy will work out for them over the next couple of years since they are responsible for sports car development within VAG.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S (at Porsche right now), BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

RC:

I am curious how Porsche's sports car strategy will work out for them over the next couple of years since they are responsible for sports car development within VAG.

Yes this will be very interesting (BTW I agree with the rest of your post too). This is one of the reasons that I say they need to break out of the glass roof that they placed over themselves by having the 911 as the sacred model.

Porsche has tried in the past to kill off (move away- for those that will take exception to my phraseology)  the 911 with disastrous results.  This has made them petrified to even broach the subject. They need to get over it. They need to understand that time has moved on. The competition has moved on. Today is not the same as yesterday. Don't try substitute the 911 with a front engined sports car. Don't even try and substitute the 911. It has its place in the Porsche product portfolio, but they must create room for the portfolio to expand upwards (in price and performance). The 911 should not serve any longer as a self imposed glass ceiling.

RC:

A Cayenne Diesel is around 90k EUR with some options, you can even spend 100k EUR or more on a Cayenne Diesel. This is ridiculous.

Ridiculous but many of us do it, the Porsche brand is strong, add the extras and a bit of tuning and 100K is easily blown. Maybe our other halves don't need more than 300PS/640NM on the road and the near 1000km range is very desirable 

--

3.9  GT2 2011 make over

Italo:

I reckon Porsche are ripping people off with their pricing policy. Since the overwhelming success of the 997, Porsche have decided to increase their prices drastically. A fully spec'd 991 S cab with some not too nice options hits the £107k barrier, this is just too much for a 911 based on the amount of cars Porsche throws out. I have never considered the 911 to be a direct competitor to the 458 or MP12, Porsche need another sports car in that segment, a real mid-engined sports car to compete effectively with those cars. Would I buy a 991, definitely yes for reason of reliability and comfort, but for some other factors i.e exclusivity, McLaren, Ferrari and Lambo beat the 911 has down ! And pls dont comup with the GT2 RS or GT3's...they are not in the same league as MFL 

I fully agree with this and many of the other points mentioned in this thread.

I consider myself a Porsche diehard and fanatic. I respect and admire Porsche's heritage and identity more than anything else; that being said, however, I also criticize their lineup and other details related to it.

Since we're on the pricing ball: I feel like Porsche's pricing has become absolutely exorbitant and despite my incredible love for the marque, a bigger part than what I'd like feels like I'm being ripped off. Let's look at the Cayenne in Kuwait:
Cayenne V6, 2009: 13700 KWD.
Cayenne V6, 2012: 20400 KWD.
The price difference between the 957 and 958 is over 19000 EUR. And what for? Generational differences aside, we still get a car with a plastic-decked interior, partial leather, no suspension/lighting/assistance options or anything; the price hike doesn't reflect a more loaded car or one with greater performance statistics. The same V6 958 in the United States is almost 7000 KWD cheaper. I know it has a lot to do with the brand name, but a fully-loaded Volkswagen Touareg VR6 FSI [with all the goodies like heated seats, 20-inch wheels, panoramic sunroof, keyless entry/start, reversing cameras and sensors, etc.] in Kuwait costs 19950 KWD, while the Cayenne V6, which uses the same skeleton, platform, engine and many other components with similar performance outputs only begins at 20400... with none of the same options. If I bought a base Cayenne V6, where's the luxury and performance I'd expect from the Porsche pedigree at the premium I'm paying for it?

I almost bought a Panamera on an impulsive whim in December 2011 but then logic thankfully kicked in: at 32500 KWD/92500 EUR, I was about to buy a base Panamera V6 RWD in platinum silver/standard luxor beige with nothing in it but PDK, Porsche Entry & Drive, a reversing camera and the Turbo II rims. Soft-touch interior, manual tailgate, no heated/ventilated seats or anything - doesn't that just seem a bit ridiculous?

To reiterate: I do and will continue to love Porsche with a burning passion that words fail to describe and I know that I will always need to pay a premium to step into their vehicles. I just don't want to feel like I'm being preyed upon and stripped of every red cent I've got for something that doesn't feel like a Porsche.

RC said it best: Porsche needs to seriously up their game, and up it fast.

rulesdontapply

 As a long time friend of Porsche I agree with much of the above.

However, any 911 is worth  the money because it offers a unique driving pleasure. It is a sportscar par excellence and in spite of its lack of rarity it still makes a statement. Competitors are either far more expensive or inadequate.

Also, the Boxster is a superb roadster and if specified prudently it will cost at the same level much as the girlie  Z4 and SLK or the focused  but else deficient Elise. The Cayman is an unwanted child.

Finally, Porsche makes superb super SUVs and super saloons. If the buyer  could afford the huge costs of Cayenne Turbo or any Panamera V8, he would end up with a super fast and practical car with fantastic dynamics.

Anything else other  than the above I wouldn't even consider. I view Diesels,, anaemic V6s and the future Macan 4Cs as an unnecessary waste of money. I'd rather buy those type of cars from Audi or BMW and keep the change.

--

"Form follows function"

I don't think that the 991 is too expensive. Compared to other cars it's quite a bargain. You get something which is a pleasure to drive, sounds good, not too big, you can take your kids with you, looks good, doesn't consume too much petrol, is well built, won't blame you in front of a hotel nor on a race track -- actually it ticks all the boxes, it's nearly perfect.

zzboba:

I don't think that the 991 is too expensive. Compared to other cars it's quite a bargain. You get something which is a pleasure to drive, sounds good, not too big, you can take your kids with you, looks good, doesn't consume too much petrol, is well built, won't blame you in front of a hotel nor on a race track -- actually it ticks all the boxes, it's nearly perfect.

 

c'mon zz stop bursting my balls here   how much do you think it cost porsche to build a 991 and bear in mind that its a mass produced car ? compare this to the amount they are charging and  just watch that depreciation curev in 3yrs time. The long and shrt is porsche are ripping off their customers....period !

Porsche's basic price is not very high. They are omitting, however, essential items from the basic spec for which they are charging a lot. Things that are standard in a 6 series or SL,  for example. In spite of that thousands around the world  drive 911s and from my own survey in many countries only a small minority do that for show, unlike other premium cars. Most buyers enjoy the driving experience more than anything else.

"Form follows function"

Perhaps you should buy your cars in the US - perhaps the prices here more closely reflect what they are costing Porsche to make - ? (actually prices have gone up a lot, they used to be MUCH cheaper than German prices!)

These are all prices from Porsches US website converted to Euros.

Base new Boxster 39K EURO

Base 991 66K EURO

Base 991S 77K EURO

Base V6 Panamera 61K EURO

Panamera Turbo S (RC) - 140K EURO

These are the sticker prices - you still have room to bargain.

In the meantime, thanks for cheap Porsches.  We in America appreciate the extra you pay for us!  Cheers

zzboba:

I don't think that the 991 is too expensive. Compared to other cars it's quite a bargain. You get something which is a pleasure to drive, sounds good, not too big, you can take your kids with you, looks good, doesn't consume too much petrol, is well built, won't blame you in front of a hotel nor on a race track -- actually it ticks all the boxes, it's nearly perfect.

 

I agree, at least here in SA, once you've chosen a 911, there is no alternative in the price range - AMs and Mazaratis are 50% more expensive, even if you wanted to consider them.  Not sure what would line up price-wise to tempt me in Europe..?

But this post has now become something I haven't seen on Rennteam in the year I've been a member: a very harsh, but objective criticism of the group's direction, with even the most dyed in the wool fans questioning it's strategy.  And we all seem to be in total agreement: the brand needs to add a mid-engine sportscar into its permenant range (not just a limited issue Carrera GT supercar). 

Porsche Carrera GTS (2012); Porsche Cayenne Diesel (2012)

Leawood911:

Perhaps you should buy your cars in the US - perhaps the prices here more closely reflect what they are costing Porsche to make - ? (actually prices have gone up a lot, they used to be MUCH cheaper than German prices!)

These are all prices from Porsches US website converted to Euros.

Base new Boxster 39K EURO

Base 991 66K EURO

Base 991S 77K EURO

Base V6 Panamera 61K EURO

Panamera Turbo S (RC) - 140K EURO

These are the sticker prices - you still have room to bargain.

In the meantime, thanks for cheap Porsches.  We in America appreciate the extra you pay for us!  Cheers

 are these pre tax prices?

Euro prices include VAT at about 20% if not more.

My Panamera Turbo S costs around 198k EUR, incl. 19% VAT.

A Turbo S with the same options would cost 162k EUR in the US, tax excluded.

Let's assume that 6% local tax are added and whatever luxury/gas guzzler tax (I don't have a clue), so the US car would cost aprox. 178k EUR, a 20k EUR difference.

20000 EUR...quite a lot.

Taking in consideration the prices without tax, the US car would be 162k EUR and the German car would be slightly over 160k EUR. 

So the Turbo S is actually cheaper in Germany. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S (at Porsche right now), BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

RC:

Taking in consideration the prices without tax, the US car would be 162k EUR and the German car would be slightly over 160k EUR. 

So the Turbo S is actually cheaper in Germany. 

 that's the shipping cost :)

RC:

20000 EUR...quite a lot.
 

C'mon, that's only peanuts for a car costing that much.

The secret of life is to admire without desiring.

UK has the lowest pre-tax costs ..

Panamera Turbo S list price is approx £124k, which is £103.3k pre-tax, which is a mere Euro 127k

Leawood911:

Perhaps you should buy your cars in the US - perhaps the prices here more closely reflect what they are costing Porsche to make - ? (actually prices have gone up a lot, they used to be MUCH cheaper than German prices!)

These are all prices from Porsches US website converted to Euros.

Base new Boxster 39K EURO

Base 991 66K EURO

Base 991S 77K EURO

Base V6 Panamera 61K EURO

Panamera Turbo S (RC) - 140K EURO

These are the sticker prices - you still have room to bargain.

In the meantime, thanks for cheap Porsches.  We in America appreciate the extra you pay for us!  Cheers

Aren't all brands cheaper in the USA? If so, in relative terms Porsche are still considered expensive in America too.

"Form follows function"

Rossi:

RC:

20000 EUR...quite a lot.
 

C'mon, that's only peanuts for a car costing that much.

It would be enough for a power upgrade. Oh wait...the Turbo S already has it. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S (at Porsche right now), BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

I was under the impression that Porsche catered to the middle and upper middle class segment. In the past, people in this segment had sufficient discretionary income to move up to a Porsche. However, I believe this has changed. Their discretionary income has dropped off and they have become more value oriented. Porsche raising prices on what is essentially the same car as past models is problematic especially during these economy times. I guess that is why they are focusing on China and Russia.

Ferrari and other super car manufacturers do not have the problem since most of their customers are in the 1% and this segment is doing very well.