Crown

Hi All ,

Just got my 09 GT2 and i am looking for upgrade kit  , i m not looking for high hp , what i want is istant response and realibility for tracks and street use , and i found a kit offering by Manthey Motors with 600 hp package for the , the kit includes :

MM intercoolers, sport catalysts, titanium rear silencer , titanium tail pipes, MM motornic, sport clutch , friction plate.

It's add 70 hp and 100 Nm.

And it's for 22500 Euro.

Any  thoughts about this kit ?

Thanks

Welcome to Rennteam, Dubay!

Before putting big money into your car, check out the local tuners like Alex Renner, NFS Racing, etc., and then make your final decision. 

I have a contact in NFS Racing, named Murat Binici, who is a ECU mod specialist, and is a very friendly and knowledgable person to talk to.

Please note I have no personal interest in any of these companies, just personal experience with NFS racing, Murat in particular.  If you're interested, I'll give you their contact details, or just visit their websites - www.nfsdxb.com and www.armotors.ae for Alex Renner Motors. 

Incidentally, Alex Renner have now started their own paid warranty scheme where even if your car is modified, and will not be accepted by the OPC, they will service it and repair it under warranty for an annual fee.  (At least that's what they say in their newsletter that I get in my e-mail every month!)

There are certainly other tuners out there as well, so do your research before putting down such a huge amount!

Somehow the more I think about it, it looks like you're paying too much for something where the end result may not be to your liking. 

I've been told the ECU upgrade itself can give you as much as 70bhp, and would cost you no more than 3000EUR.  So is it worth paying 19,500EUR more for 20bhp?

I may be wrong, but I think a sports clutch and friction plate will not give you any more power, just a sharper clutch not well suited for normal road use.

I saw your post on 6speed I think ?

There are US tuners who can bolt big Garretts on and give you mega US hp but if you want to keep the character of the engine (and car) intact then you are better off with a properly tuned VTG job.

There is a test on the Manthey 600 - numbers from it are on this site:

http://www.einszweidrei.de/

The Manthey car tested was a bit lighter weight than stock with carbon doors and hood and wheels but it also wore big tyres and their aero package so more drag.

The main problem with the GT2 (and this is particularly pertinent for your location) is that in standard form it runs high air intake temperatures - we have a poster on here with a GT2 from your general location and he has experienced big power loss with the sort of ambient temperatures you get..... Any tuning of the GT2 (in its standard engine configuration ie VTGs and expansion manifold with stock intercoolers) will be limited by this,

Cargraphic sell the 600PS/800NM kit developed by RS Tuning which a few forum guys have purchased, this will work within the limits of the standard intercoolers but even this will lose power when your ambient temps get over 30degC......

Your question specifically mentions instant response and reliability. Tuning the VTGs effectively seems to be a hard thing to do but the RS kit seems to be the best in this area, checkout the data on their VTG 997tt 624PS/826NM - it has amazing response and I can report from my RS Tuned engine that this is a trade mark feature of the RS engines - reliability is a given with this race engine builder.

Back to the Manthey kit - With his reputation it will be well resolved, I believe his VTG control and ECU programming   was done by Ansgar Weissen who has a good reputation and it is a viable alternative to the CG/RS kit......

The other thing worth mentioning is the torque delivery (and size of the torque ie sub ~850NM) - the smooth delivery of the RS Tuning really suits the GT2 and enables traction to be maintained - something which can be easily upset by a peaky tune - I would imagine the Manthey to be similar in this regard. 

personally I wouldn't reccomend any others for our expensive unique cars

2009 997 GT2 659PS/827NM DIN

 TB993tt 

 Thank you  it is me in 6speed  

it seem that most over the forums is looking for more power for the bucks.

The trend over the forums now  a days is the  more power with less $$ tag  So the highest power guy with lowest price tag  wins  

1-  your post is what i was looking for.  Spacialy  you have mentioned  the high temp that might cuz  the   ecu  to reduse the timing   seem that manthay  also have adressed this issue with his  intercooler 

2- power dilivery is  very very importent   ppl who track the car  can appreciate this alot   i have seen  in the past ppl  with  high Hp  porsche  on the track   thay just seem to be  usless in the corner  cuz no power or throttle  modulation  at all either  full power or  no power  not to mention  the lag that usuly coms with big turbos 

also i have noticed that alot of tuners  use  this boost peak ( map ) kick  to make thier costumer happy  

3-  as far the price  i think if you take the akrapovic out  the manthey  m600 it seem  that thay have a resnable price   ECU , intercooler , clutch  bare in mine that manthay  akrapovic has 70mm  comparing with the akrapovic  67mm turbine housing  and also that both  provide you with  100 cell cats  and  headers  

TB993tt:

Cargraphic sell the 600PS/800NM kit developed by RS Tuning which a few forum guys have purchased, this will work within the limits of the standard intercoolers but even this will lose power when your ambient temps get over 30degC......

Your question specifically mentions instant response and reliability. Tuning the VTGs effectively seems to be a hard thing to do but the RS kit seems to be the best in this area, checkout the data on their VTG 997tt 624PS/826NM - it has amazing response and I can report from my RS Tuned engine that this is a trade mark feature of the RS engines - reliability is a given with this race engine builder.

Back to the Manthey kit - With his reputation it will be well resolved, I believe his VTG control and ECU programming   was done by Ansgar Weissen who has a good reputation and it is a viable alternative to the CG/RS kit......

The other thing worth mentioning is the torque delivery (and size of the torque ie sub ~850NM) - the smooth delivery of the RS Tuning really suits the GT2 and enables traction to be maintained - something which can be easily upset by a peaky tune - I would imagine the Manthey to be similar in this regard. 

personally I wouldn't reccomend any others for our expensive unique cars

Very true, both companies are involved in racing (Manthey won the Nürburgring 24h three times consecutively, RS built the engine for Alzen´s 997 Turbo). Whatever you choose to do, don´t rely on a sole ECU update. The drawbacks on this are, as Tobey mentioned, the intercooler temperatures and potentially increased stress and temperatures inside the engine.

Dubay:

 TB993tt 

 Thank you  it is me in 6speed  

it seem that most over the forums is looking for more power for the bucks.

The trend over the forums now  a days is the  more power with less $$ tag  So the highest power guy with lowest price tag  wins  

1-  your post is what i was looking for.  Spacialy  you have mentioned  the high temp that might cuz  the   ecu  to reduse the timing   seem that manthay  also have adressed this issue with his  intercooler 

2- power dilivery is  very very importent   ppl who track the car  can appreciate this alot   i have seen  in the past ppl  with  high Hp  porsche  on the track   thay just seem to be  usless in the corner  cuz no power or throttle  modulation  at all either  full power or  no power  not to mention  the lag that usuly coms with big turbos 

also i have noticed that alot of tuners  use  this boost peak ( map ) kick  to make thier costumer happy  

 

3-  as far the price  i think if you take the akrapovic out  the manthey  m600 it seem  that thay have a resnable price   ECU , intercooler , clutch  bare in mine that manthay  akrapovic has 70mm  comparing with the akrapovic  67mm turbine housing  and also that both  provide you with  100 cell cats  and  headers  

 

 

Highest power for less bucks is an easy thing to understand isn't it and forums are full of people trying to learn with everyone wanting to believe they have the best bang for their buck !

If you search on here I posted about my intercooler experience...... I have seen Manthey's intercoolers and the cores are nothing special, they probably work better than stock but they will struggle in your temperatures - pics of Manthey intercooler on the M600 below:

Your goal for maximum timing is to keep the IAT below 55DegC so even the best intercoolers will not achieve that in 40DegC ambient but certainly for a price you can keep at 65DegC which will still give you proper power.

I understand completely what you say about power delivery, this is Schmirler trademark in fact one problem RS have is that some customers complain that their cars do not seem "that fast" because they do not spin the wheels with abrubt torque delivery, it is only when timed or raced that the power is obvious....

Price reflects the R&D and reputation of the tuner......

I would say RS are the only company building VTG turbo race engines, Manthey is obviously legendary in racing but they do not race turbo Porsches and as I said their programming is done outside their facility on another Maha chassis dyno FWIW ;)

If you go on Rennlist there are a few guys with the CG/RS 600PS kit who track them, maybe mail them for their experiences ? 

2009 997 GT2 659PS/827NM DIN

 Best bang for buck imo after countless experiments;

- get tobby's ICs or the very expensive Secans. This is key..

- get 100 cell cats from RS tuning

- Do an ECU tune with the guy you mention, or RS tuning.

That will get you >600hp reliably and 750-800NM. If then you need more power then you need modded VTGs and ecu tune again. 

The GT2 comes with a pretty good setup from factory (expansion intake, v good titanium exhaust, bigger VTGs, no MAF for boost control) so its easy to get this kind of power reliably.

good luck!

In my opinion if you dont mind paying 20k + euros for a 600 hp kit,,,, i would go with the RS tuning 600 package without the catalyic converters 6155 Euros...

And then buy the Secan cores for 14000 Euros , i think you can get them for a better price from cargraphic...

total 20155 Euros.....

I think it will be a better deal than opting for the 22500 Euro.. Manthey package.. plus you get the secan intercoolers..

I already orderd the same power kit for my 997 GT2... deleting the catalyic converters will reduce EGTs, IATs , and increase overall efficiancy....

Thats just my 2 cents..

Good luck...

I would not tune the GT2, it just doesn't make sense from many perspectives. The car has RWD, adding more power and torque to it may make it faster on the straight line (not really THAT fast, if you don't care about 0-300 kph performance) but with the downside that it is going to be more difficult to control on the track. Meaning: you're going to be slower.

I just don't see the point of tuning the GT2. Personally, I would add a nice sounding exhaust to it because the exhaust sound still sucks but everything else, leave it like it is.

If you're longing for something mean and fast for 0-100 kph races, sell your GT2 and get the new facelifted 997 Turbo.

Invest the money in driver ed courses and fun with the original car, stay away from tuning.

IF you really want to tune your car, stay away from cheap chip tuning and stick with well known tuners. Right now, I think that Manthey is pretty good and if service is your priority, go to RUF. Just make sure it is a tuner with a local rep, so you have somebody LOCAL to go to if there is a problem. Good tuners also offer a warranty in case Porsche isn't paying for a certain repair related to the tuning.

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

RC:

I would not tune the GT2, it just doesn't make sense from many perspectives. The car has RWD, adding more power and torque to it may make it faster on the straight line (not really THAT fast, if you don't care about 0-300 kph performance) but with the downside that it is going to be more difficult to control on the track. Meaning: you're going to be slower.

I just don't see the point of tuning the GT2. Personally, I would add a nice sounding exhaust to it because the exhaust sound still sucks but everything else, leave it like it is.

If you're longing for something mean and fast for 0-100 kph races, sell your GT2 and get the new facelifted 997 Turbo.

Invest the money in driver ed courses and fun with the original car, stay away from tuning.

IF you really want to tune your car, stay away from cheap chip tuning and stick with well known tuners. Right now, I think that Manthey is pretty good and if service is your priority, go to RUF. Just make sure it is a tuner with a local rep, so you have somebody LOCAL to go to if there is a problem. Good tuners also offer a warranty in case Porsche isn't paying for a certain repair related to the tuning.

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

RC, you are turning into an old man  since when did tuning anything have to make sense ? The 7GT2 is so well set up that it can easily handle up to 830NM when delivered in a "factory style" manner - it just makes the 7GT2 experience even more fun - stick to your Cayenne
 

2009 997 GT2 659PS/827NM DIN

I know what I know... 

Btw: my 997 Turbo easily outruns any GT2 out there. 

Furthermore: no more Cayenne...X5 M is now the family car.

Cheers. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

RC:

I would not tune the GT2, it just doesn't make sense from many perspectives. The car has RWD, adding more power and torque to it may make it faster on the straight line (not really THAT fast, if you don't care about 0-300 kph performance) but with the downside that it is going to be more difficult to control on the track. Meaning: you're going to be slower.

I just don't see the point of tuning the GT2. Personally, I would add a nice sounding exhaust to it because the exhaust sound still sucks but everything else, leave it like it is.

If you're longing for something mean and fast for 0-100 kph races, sell your GT2 and get the new facelifted 997 Turbo.

Invest the money in driver ed courses and fun with the original car, stay away from tuning.

IF you really want to tune your car, stay away from cheap chip tuning and stick with well known tuners. Right now, I think that Manthey is pretty good and if service is your priority, go to RUF. Just make sure it is a tuner with a local rep, so you have somebody LOCAL to go to if there is a problem. Good tuners also offer a warranty in case Porsche isn't paying for a certain repair related to the tuning.

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

RC 

 i agree with you  in some point but  having autodrom in dubai and  yas marina  f1 circet  wich has a 1.6 km  straight line into it abit of extra power is like a web cream  on top of sturbery  cake  hehehe .

  in regard new 997.2  i dont think it is a good option for me  as the new 998  not very far away 

 considering manethay, ruf  is the only think  make me  post this   trying to a stay away from cheeep tuning.  use to have  a ruf 996  so i know where i am coming from  

RC:

I know what I know... 

Btw: my 997 Turbo easily outruns any GT2 out there. 

Furthermore: no more Cayenne...X5 M is now the family car.

Cheers. 

 RC 

 Then maybe you can lead me to your  997 tuning  stuff will save me the headach of  posting in hear  and

Btw: if you give me a lead to your tuning  then my gt2 well easily out run 997 

( RC  tuning pakedge )   hear we come 

I already did. Just read my recommendation carefully.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

Does Ruf have anything for the 7GT2 - I have never seen anything quoted anywhere

The GT2 is different to the 997tt, the expansion manifold means a different tuning strategy, higher boost levels to the 997tt....

2009 997 GT2 659PS/827NM DIN

TB993TT,

Does Ruf have anything for the 7GT2 - I have never seen anything quoted anywhere

The GT2 is different to the 997tt, the expansion manifold means a different tuning strategy, higher boost levels to the 997tt....

Apparently Ruf has a 620-630 hp kit for the GT2 , all i know is that it includes upgraded VTGs..

Regarding the diffrent tuning strategy Ruf told me that my previous Ruf Turbo 600hp boost pressure was between 1.4-1.5 bar max......

I experianced a major loss of power , due to the high boost pressure .... especially in the summer....

More proof that one can tune the 997GT2:      

http://www.rennteam.com/forum/page1.html?vs=3

1997 993 TT Proto 3.8L 700HP

2005 996 TSCab EVO GT700

2006 Noble M400 "M600" 573RWHP

2007 Audi RS4 MTM exhaust/clutch/LWFW

TTurbine:

I experianced a major loss of power , due to the high boost pressure .... especially in the summer....

 

This is the problem, the DIN hp rating is at 20DegC so the stock engine "system" can keep the IAT below the critical timing retard threshold of 55degC but any increase in ambient temperature will trip  the IAT beyond that 55DegC and your power is going bye bye
 

The bigger VTGs are helpful in keeping the IATs down but in the GT2 RS Tuning rate the maximum with standard intercoolers about the same as Ruf @ 635PS and that is at DIN 20DegC......

2009 997 GT2 659PS/827NM DIN

 how did you manage to get 659ps from your car then? what was your tuning strategy>

Guys, don't always look at numbers only. Numbers are on paper and easy to produce. What counts for me is service and reliability. RUF has a pretty good reputation regarding customer service and reliability. They also need to update their products from time to time, so if there has been a problem with temperature, it will be taken care of. 

Good customer service is worth GOLD when it comes to tuned cars. 

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

artur777:

 how did you manage to get 659ps from your car then? what was your tuning strategy>

Intercoolers which perform as well as Secan..... that is the golden bullet with these cars.

I also have quite low torque @827NM so the engine uses stock rods, the torque is limited with a steepish power curve peaking at 6900rpm (not a typical Schmirler turbo curve), it suits the car well, makes it a bit of a "screamer" with lots of traction.....

Ruf does not use the expensive intercooler technology, he never has so his Mezger offerings will always be limited, fortunately using bigger capacity the limits are are pretty high... 680PS is enough for most people !!!

What RC says about service is an obvious truth but sometimes to get the best you have to deal with crap customer service..... If you wanted a Mezger 4.3 litre high compression VTG Secan intercooled 800PS engine with 950NM at 3000rpm then there is no alternative, Mr Ruf can be as nice to you as you like but he can't build one of these - depends how thick your skin is and how much you appreciate the engineering

--
 

2009 997 GT2 659PS/827NM DIN

 From my experience with tuned 911: the better the output on paper, the worse the reliability and the bigger the problems when they occur. To build a RELIABLE 700+ HP 911 engine, you need to invest at least 70000-80000 EUR into the whole thing. Not worth it in my opinion, especially not on a 2WD car.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

 RC, is it reiable to make ECU tuning + Exhaust on 911 Turbo?

interesting

what intercoolers are you exactly using?

TB993tt:

artur777:

 how did you manage to get 659ps from your car then? what was your tuning strategy>

Intercoolers which perform as well as Secan..... that is the golden bullet with these cars.

I also have quite low torque @827NM so the engine uses stock rods, the torque is limited with a steepish power curve peaking at 6900rpm (not a typical Schmirler turbo curve), it suits the car well, makes it a bit of a "screamer" with lots of traction.....

Ruf does not use the expensive intercooler technology, he never has so his Mezger offerings will always be limited, fortunately using bigger capacity the limits are are pretty high... 680PS is enough for most people !!!

What RC says about service is an obvious truth but sometimes to get the best you have to deal with crap customer service..... If you wanted a Mezger 4.3 litre high compression VTG Secan intercooled 800PS engine with 950NM at 3000rpm then there is no alternative, Mr Ruf can be as nice to you as you like but he can't build one of these - depends how thick your skin is and how much you appreciate the engineering

 

is it provided by RS Tuning?how much does it cost? this is my dream tuned car spec....

andrea:

 

is it provided by RS Tuning?how much does it cost? this is my dream tuned car spec....

 

You and me both

It will cost somewhere north of 100K Euro.... They charge mega money for the special crankshafts they have made, specially prepared heads etc..... The real technical feat of these engines is that they produce the power at 1 bar boost only with all the advantages which that brings. The latest Alzen 997tt based racer was the test bed for a lot of these advancements.

2009 997 GT2 659PS/827NM DIN

TB993tt:

andrea:

 

is it provided by RS Tuning?how much does it cost? this is my dream tuned car spec....

 

You and me both

It will cost somewhere north of 100K Euro.... They charge mega money for the special crankshafts they have made, specially prepared heads etc..... The real technical feat of these engines is that they produce the power at 1 bar boost only with all the advantages which that brings. The latest Alzen 997tt based racer was the test bed for a lot of these advancements.

amazing tech inside...

if I win the lottery maybe I can buy one :)

--
Dedi La vita è troppo corta per non guidare italiano.....