Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: Koenigsegg CC8S/CCR vs. CGT on the Street? - Page1

May 22, 2005 4:10:37 PM

MAVERICK: Veteran; Loc: Cincinnati, OH (USA) , United States; Posts: 1145, Gallery; Registered on: May 31, 2004

Koenigsegg CC8S/CCR vs. CGT on the Street?

Autoweek article:
http://autoweek.com/article.cms?articleId=102363
http://www.koenigsegg.com/thecars/index.asp?submenu=4

Safety:
ABS, Traction Control On/Off, USA-Legal, Fuel Cell Tank, Fire Suppression System?
NO, Yes, Yes, No, No (CC8S/R)
Yes, Yes, Yes, No, No (CGT)

Reliability/Practicality/ Spare Parts/ Dealer Service:
? Koenigsegg limited by no ABS, maybe clearance, lack of dealers, unproven reliability

? CGT limited by clearance, unproven reliability, 1st generation PCCB

Build Quality:
? (CC8S/R)
Better than most supercars (CGT)

Overheating in Traffic?
? (CC8S/R)
No (CGT)

Ground Clearance:
100 mm (CC8S/R) Electronically adjustable
86 mm (CGT); Optional non-adjustable 96 mm

Center of Gravity:
N/A
N/A

Trunk Space:
120 liters/4.2 cu.ft. (CC8S/R)
63 liters/2.2 cu.ft. (USA CGT); 76 liters/2.7 (ROW CGT)

Price:
$600,000 estimated (CCR)
$416 - 448,000 (CGT)

Manual/SMG choice:
Yes (CC8S/CCR)
No (CGT)

The doors:

(CC8S/R)

(CGT)

Detachable Roof w/ On-board storage:
Yes (CC8S/R)
Yes (CGT)

Engine/Exhaust note:
Subjective

Gearshift quality:
Subjective

Exclusivity and Depreciation? (for Nick)

? (CC8S/R)
Not enough (CGT)

Options on CC8S/CCR unavailable on CGT:
Parking Sensors, Rearview Camera in addition to interior rear-view mirror

Curb Weight:
2921 lbs. (CCR)
3152 lbs. (CGT)

Top Speed:
240+ mph (CC8S/CCR)
205 mph (CGT)

What do you think? Is the lack of ABS acceptable on a modern supercar? What is the weight penalty for ABS?
Anyone know what warranty is supplied with the Koenigsegg?

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May 22, 2005 4:15:50 PM

Mike S: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Somewhere , Taiwan; Posts: 7720, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 3, 2005; Reply to: MAVERICK

Re: Koenigsegg CC8S/CCR vs. CGT on the Street?

To be honest I have no clue on the weight penalty of ABS, but after reading all of the above, I'd definately buy a Koenigsegg!

Despite the CCR being considerably more expensive than the CGT, I'd take it over the CGT anyday!

Just to add to the info, the CGT comes with PCCB if I'm not mistaken, where as Koenigsegg's still come out with normal metal brake disks.

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May 22, 2005 4:41:52 PM

MAVERICK: Veteran; Loc: Cincinnati, OH (USA) , United States; Posts: 1145, Gallery; Registered on: May 31, 2004; Reply to: Mike S

Re: Koenigsegg CC8S/CCR vs. CGT on the Street?

Quote:
Mike S said:
Just to add to the info, the CGT comes with PCCB if I'm not mistaken, where as Koenigsegg's still come out with normal metal brake disks.

Mike S,

The CGT's 1st generation PCCB are worse than the current PCCB's offered on the Turbo S, 997, and Boxster in terms of reliability, longevity, and feel. And with the 997 Cup car teams ditching their latest generation PCCB's for steel rotors, I believe ceramic rotors may be a failure worldwide for any brand of car whether for the street or for racing unless you have deep pockets.

However, the CC8S/R will have optional ceramic brakes in the future and is currently available, according to Autoweek, with a ceramic metallic clutch on the SMG CCR version that is similar to the easy engagement feel of the CGT. The metal brakes on the CC8S/R have fantastic "feel" and stopping power, from what I've read, just like the F50 and unlike a McLaren F1.
I can't wait for EVO magazine to write a comparison story on all these cars including the Bugatti.

How do you find the pedal feel on your Noble compared to other cars?

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May 23, 2005 5:35:16 AM

Mike S: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Somewhere , Taiwan; Posts: 7720, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 3, 2005; Reply to: MAVERICK

Re: Koenigsegg CC8S/CCR vs. CGT on the Street?

Hi Maverick,

I think the Noble is a terrific car, it's very simple and basic - built for one purpose and one purpose only, uninterrupted driving between ones self and the car. It has no traction control and no ABS, despite that the car is surprisingly easy to control. The brakes are very very sharp, the car also only weighs 1080kg/2300lbs so it is quite agile. Bhp is 425 too

It has an oversized go-kart feel comparted to other cars which I've driven(996 TT, GT3 RS, 360 Modena, Diablo SVR etc.) it really handles great around corners, just make sure the rpm is above 4500 all the time and you'll be fine

I'll make a short video sometime so it will give you an idea of what I'm talking about

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May 25, 2005 4:34:01 AM

jandreas: Junior; Loc: STX , U.S. Virgin Islands; Posts: 75, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 6, 2002; Reply to: MAVERICK

Re: Koenigsegg CC8S/CCR vs. CGT on the Street?

Quote:
MAVERICK said:And with the 997 Cup car teams ditching their latest generation PCCB's for steel rotors

Where did you hear this? I've heard the exact opposite and that so far this season they have been great (i.e. should last 10 races).

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May 25, 2005 9:59:19 PM

MAVERICK: Veteran; Loc: Cincinnati, OH (USA) , United States; Posts: 1145, Gallery; Registered on: May 31, 2004; Reply to: jandreas

Re: Koenigsegg CC8S/CCR vs. CGT on the Street?

Quote:
jandreas said:
Quote:
MAVERICK said:And with the 997 Cup car teams ditching their latest generation PCCB's for steel rotors

Where did you hear this? I've heard the exact opposite and that so far this season they have been great (i.e. should last 10 races).

Thanks for asking, jandreas. After doing some searching, I have found that the Supercup cars are using PCCB while the Carrera Cup cars are using Steel. The Supercup cars have a bigger budget and can afford to throw away the expensive rotors.

Sources:

OK. Motor is the same as in the current gt3 but tweaked to give 408hp.

You heard it here first.

Officially.

So there.

Still got crappy Ceramics though, heard that the new cup cars are ditching theirs in favour of good old steel.
http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/showt...;threadid=26906

Well, that is a blow for pccb credibility, as Porsche themselved wrote that it would equippe all cup cars for this season.
http://www.rennteam.com/showflat.php?Cat...=true#Post99519

I agree those look like steel discs. The ventilation pattern also looks closer to the Turbo brakes or PCCB first generation.

http://www.rennteam.com/showflat.php?Cat...true#Post103000

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May 30, 2005 12:27:56 AM

MAVERICK: Veteran; Loc: Cincinnati, OH (USA) , United States; Posts: 1145, Gallery; Registered on: May 31, 2004; Reply to: Mike S

Re: Koenigsegg CC8S/CCR vs. CGT on the Street?

Quote:
Mike S said:
but after reading all of the above, I'd definately buy a Koenigsegg!

Seems the Koenigsegg has questionable reliability:

I can't claim the validity of all the facts, but the it's generally the truth.

The owner actually had ordered one which was being built for him for this event. About a month before Gumball, they told him that it wouldn't be ready in time. So he went and found someone who owned one already and bought theirs and shipped it over. So yes, now he has two.

The first day, we were in San Francisco and he was revving his engine for the crowd when he blew an oil gasket. Oddly enough a VW one fits his engine so he goes to the VW dealership. For some reason, they can't give him one - most likely they don't have one in stock. So what does he do? He buys the VW with the right part and takes it off that. This is obviously a man who gets things done.

So anyway, they never made it Reno. Blown water pipe. So he ships it to a McLaren dealership in Las Vegas for repairs. The car was ready to go that morning, and after a really long day it made it to San Antonio at around 12:30 last night. I'm not sure how it's running so far today. Hopefully we'll see it in New Orleans.

Source: http://gumball.briankelley.com/newsDetails.php?messageID=36

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May 30, 2005 6:15:22 AM

Mike S: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Somewhere , Taiwan; Posts: 7720, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 3, 2005; Reply to: MAVERICK

Re: Koenigsegg CC8S/CCR vs. CGT on the Street?

This is just one Koenigsegg, and one can't generalize that all of them are unreliable just because of one having bad luck... There is also someone with a boxter on the porsche boards who is getting it replaced because of consistant problems too. So I guess there is a bad one once in a while from all manufacturere.

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May 30, 2005 2:46:48 PM

MAVERICK: Veteran; Loc: Cincinnati, OH (USA) , United States; Posts: 1145, Gallery; Registered on: May 31, 2004; Reply to: Mike S

Re: Koenigsegg CC8S/CCR vs. CGT on the Street?

Quote:
Mike S said:
This is just one Koenigsegg, and one can't generalize that all of them are unreliable just because of one having bad luck... There is also someone with a boxter on the porsche boards who is getting it replaced because of consistant problems too. So I guess there is a bad one once in a while from all manufacturere.

True. Let's hope it is first-year production bugs.

Also, I have made a large blunder:

Both, CC8S and CCR, come with standard ABS. I do not have the power to edit the first post.
Having ABS, airbags, and complying with U.S. laws, I doubt the weight is under 3000 lbs. Someone would have to independently weigh it.

It comes with a 2 year warranty and 10 year corrosion warranty. A roll-cage is optional but voids the warranty. I don't know why. And since the world-record car had a fire suppression system installed, I'm sure they are able to install it as an option for a customer but would probably void the warranty as well.

Source: http://www.autoemirates.com/SpecialReports/2005/0213Koenigsegg.asp

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May 30, 2005 3:47:20 PM

MAVERICK: Veteran; Loc: Cincinnati, OH (USA) , United States; Posts: 1145, Gallery; Registered on: May 31, 2004; Reply to: MAVERICK

Re: Koenigsegg CC8S/CCR vs. CGT on the Street?

Here are some excellent photos the members of www.m5board.com captured when they took a tour of the Koenigsegg factory (dial-up user photo warning):
http://www.m5board.com/articles.php?id=34&page=5

Another interesting comparison I just thought of was the difference in cooling capacity vs. weight between the CC8S/CCR and the CGT.

It has been proven that supercars are fragile under hot, heavy traffic situations. Quite simply, they overheat. A supercar that can perform without a hiccup under these conditions, keeping the engine, gearbox, and cabin occupants cool is truly remarkable. When put to the test, the McLaren F1 and the Enzo both fail miserably. However, the CGT allegedly shines -- a friend told me he read an article about two years ago where a CGT engineer said one of the reasons the CGT is burdened with extra weight is due to the emphasis on never overheating and, as a consequence, using large capacity heat exchangers. To put it simply, he said the CGT will never overheat in hot, bumper-to-bumper traffic like your garden variety supercar. Believable? Yes. Tested indepentently? Not yet.

So, with most supercars falling like dead flies when subjected to this heat test, can the Koenigsegg hang with the CGT? Is the Koenigsegg lighter than the Porsche due to a smaller cooling capacity?

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May 30, 2005 4:28:42 PM

Mike S: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Somewhere , Taiwan; Posts: 7720, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 3, 2005; Reply to: MAVERICK

Re: Koenigsegg CC8S/CCR vs. CGT on the Street?

Quote:
MAVERICK said:
So, with most supercars falling like dead flies when subjected to this heat test, can the Koenigsegg hang with the CGT? Is the Koenigsegg lighter than the Porsche due to a smaller cooling capacity?

I can believe the cooling theory, but I don't think the Koenigsegg can handle bumper to bumper traffic, but then again who drives their supercar in those kind of conditions? If it was me I'd die from holding the clutch in for extended periods of time

So I'd make sure it's reasonable traffic conditions before I take a $400k plus car out.

With regards to the voiding the warranty on the rollcage, I think they thought if one of their clients opts for the rollcage - obviously they want to take it hard around the track and maybe the car hasn't been around long enough to prove durable under those track conditions? If I was a new car manufactuer, I wouldn't want to see my profits been drained from having a car being fixed under my own expense because the client is rough with it

Btw thanks for the link, I saw it a while ago, really great photo's

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May 30, 2005 5:17:01 PM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: Mike S

Re: Koenigsegg CC8S/CCR vs. CGT on the Street?

Quote:
Mike S said:
Quote:
MAVERICK said:
So, with most supercars falling like dead flies when subjected to this heat test, can the Koenigsegg hang with the CGT? Is the Koenigsegg lighter than the Porsche due to a smaller cooling capacity?

I can believe the cooling theory, but I don't think the Koenigsegg can handle bumper to bumper traffic, but then again who drives their supercar in those kind of conditions? If it was me I'd die from holding the clutch in for extended periods of time So I'd make sure it's reasonable traffic conditions before I take a $400k plus car out.

With regards to the voiding the warranty on the rollcage, I think they thought if one of their clients opts for the rollcage - obviously they want to take it hard around the track and maybe the car hasn't been around long enough to prove durable under those track conditions? If I was a new car manufactuer, I wouldn't want to see my profits been drained from having a car being fixed under my own expense because the client is rough with it

Btw thanks for the link, I saw it a while ago, really great photo's

I agree with you on most points except for the rollcage. If I bought a car that could do 240 mph I'd sure as hell want a roll cage in case something went wrong, track use or not. I think the void warranty issue is just some BS the company uses to reduce its own costs.

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May 30, 2005 7:10:40 PM

Mike S: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Somewhere , Taiwan; Posts: 7720, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 3, 2005; Reply to: Crash

Re: Koenigsegg CC8S/CCR vs. CGT on the Street?

Quote:
Crash said:
Quote:
Mike S said:
Quote:
MAVERICK said:
So, with most supercars falling like dead flies when subjected to this heat test, can the Koenigsegg hang with the CGT? Is the Koenigsegg lighter than the Porsche due to a smaller cooling capacity?

I can believe the cooling theory, but I don't think the Koenigsegg can handle bumper to bumper traffic, but then again who drives their supercar in those kind of conditions? If it was me I'd die from holding the clutch in for extended periods of time So I'd make sure it's reasonable traffic conditions before I take a $400k plus car out.

With regards to the voiding the warranty on the rollcage, I think they thought if one of their clients opts for the rollcage - obviously they want to take it hard around the track and maybe the car hasn't been around long enough to prove durable under those track conditions? If I was a new car manufactuer, I wouldn't want to see my profits been drained from having a car being fixed under my own expense because the client is rough with it

Btw thanks for the link, I saw it a while ago, really great photo's

I agree with you on most points except for the rollcage. If I bought a car that could do 240 mph I'd sure as hell want a roll cage in case something went wrong, track use or not. I think the void warranty issue is just some BS the company uses to reduce its own costs.

let's remember, koenigsegg isn't BMW or VW or GM etc. costs are what it's all about in such early stages, if they let the costs go too high, such a small company in comparison with the others will come and go very quickly...

oh! and another thing, the koenigsegg has a detatchable roof, so maybe the rollcage affects some or other thing on the car if it were installed?

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May 30, 2005 9:49:40 PM

MAVERICK: Veteran; Loc: Cincinnati, OH (USA) , United States; Posts: 1145, Gallery; Registered on: May 31, 2004; Reply to: Mike S

Re: Koenigsegg CC8S/CCR vs. CGT on the Street?

Quote:
Mike S said:
but then again who drives their supercar in those kind of conditions? If it was me I'd die from holding the clutch in for extended periods of time So I'd make sure it's reasonable traffic conditions before I take a $400k plus car out.

Mike,

I would. I would try to drive it in any condition possible and put as many miles as I could on it. Life is too short to wait for reasonable conditions. LOL.

Presently, quite a few supercar owners around the world take their cars to work. For example, there is a guy in Texas who drives his F1 to work daily. And the fellow who let Road and Track magazine borrow his Enzo for a 1000 mile test-drive wants to have the Enzo with the highest mileage. I'm still waiting to hear of a CGT owner who uses his car daily. Cars need attention, i.e., to be driven as often as possible. Redline must be hit at least once a day.

You don't have to press the clutch for long periods. Just put it in neutral, let the clutch out and coast. I've been told the throw-out bearing will last longer this way.

Quote:
Mike S said:
Btw thanks for the link, I saw it a while ago, really great photo's

You're welcome.

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May 31, 2005 1:58:22 AM

W8MM: Rennteam Master; Loc: Cincinnati, OH , United States; Posts: 3996, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 8, 2003; Reply to: Mike S

Re: Koenigsegg CC8S/CCR vs. CGT on the Street?

Quote:
Mike S said:
... but I don't think the Koenigsegg can handle bumper to bumper traffic, but then again who drives their supercar in those kind of conditions? If it was me I'd die from holding the clutch in for extended periods of time So I'd make sure it's reasonable traffic conditions before I take a $400k plus car out.

I don't find my Carrera GT to be especially grueling in that kind of traffic. Been there, done that.

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May 31, 2005 4:11:54 AM

Moogle: Rennteam Master; Loc: Bay Area , United States; Posts: 5019, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 9, 2003; Reply to: W8MM

Re: Koenigsegg CC8S/CCR vs. CGT on the Street?

ever try getting out of NYC on the eve of a long holiday weekend? been there done that. people were looking at me like i was crazy.

lots of nice people giving the thumbs up and clapping etc though. not the typical zoo york attitude.

you see a supercar stuck in bumper to bumper traffic and thats how you know the owner is an enthusiast.

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May 31, 2005 7:31:06 AM

Mike S: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Somewhere , Taiwan; Posts: 7720, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 3, 2005; Reply to: Moogle

Re: Koenigsegg CC8S/CCR vs. CGT on the Street?

yeah, that is a nice feeling, but where I live they'll probably mug you if you stand too long in traffic

but once again that only applies to where I stay. come here for just 2 days and you'll know what I mean

there are street hawkers/"smash and grab" potentials at every robot, I'll go take a picture today so you know what I mean

@MAVERICK: What happens if you're on a incline in pause-move traffic?

There are lots of hills here, rarely get a flat road.

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Jun 1, 2005 1:36:35 AM

MAVERICK: Veteran; Loc: Cincinnati, OH (USA) , United States; Posts: 1145, Gallery; Registered on: May 31, 2004; Reply to: Mike S

Re: Koenigsegg CC8S/CCR vs. CGT on the Street?

Quote:
Mike S said:
I'll go take a picture today so you know what I mean

I'd love to see some pictures, Mike.

Quote:
Mike S said:
@MAVERICK: What happens if you're on a incline in pause-move traffic? There are lots of hills here, rarely get a flat road.

Use the hand-brake every time you are on an incline. Release it as the clutch engages. No unnecessary wear and tear on the clutch and no rolling backwards. Of course, if you want to test your timing skills, don't use the hand brake.

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Jun 1, 2005 5:12:17 AM

ben, lj: Expert; Loc:; Posts: 1373, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 6, 2003; Reply to: MAVERICK

Re: Koenigsegg CC8S/CCR vs. CGT on the Street?

Quote:
MAVERICK said:
Quote:
Mike S said:
I'll go take a picture today so you know what I mean

I'd love to see some pictures, Mike.

Quote:
Mike S said:
@MAVERICK: What happens if you're on a incline in pause-move traffic? There are lots of hills here, rarely get a flat road.

Use the hand-brake every time you are on an incline. Release it as the clutch engages. No unnecessary wear and tear on the clutch and no rolling backwards. Of course, if you want to test your timing skills, don't use the hand brake.

or just get a CGT and that won't be necessary. my forced route home owing to ride height very often has me stopped at the light on a hill with a car on my butt. rpm between 1500 to 2k upon clutch release and it's no problem - at all.

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Koenigsegg CC8S/CCR vs. CGT on the Street?

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