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    Nov 15, 2005 9:39:10 PM

    Bennett
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    Your car is obese

    Recent discussion of the 997 Turbo and its impending weight has me worried. I remember when the Carrera GT came out that Porsche stated that its use of state of the art technology (carbon fiber and ceramic clutch) would eventually be seen throughout the entire Porsche model line up. I realize that the Carrera GT has only been around a couple of years but I feel like Porsche is lagging behind. Look at the Corvette Z06, it has carbon fiber and magnesium all over the place and it costs less than a 911. BMW has started to use carbon fiber on production cars with the M6 and its carbon fiber roof, which is a step in the right direction. I understand that carbon fiber cannot currently be produced at the same size and cost as most metals but I'm just getting tired of cars getting heavier. There are other solutions to the weight problem besides using carbon fiber like lightweight metals and plastics, and yes, some of those are expensive too. Just about ever new car gets a hike in power and weight, 997 included. I hope I'm not the only one when I say I value weight over HP (within reason). Suspension can only do so much to hide the fact that your car is a tank. Just imagine if the 997 Turbo had +/-500hp and weighed in at 2500lbs. That would really be something, not to say that the new Turbo won't be wonderful, it just could be so much more.

    Nov 15, 2005 10:10:51 PM

    Turbo Al Offline
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    Reply to: Bennett

    Re: Your car is obese

    Quote:
    C4S Co-Driver said:
    Recent discussion of the 997 Turbo and its impending weight has me worried. I remember when the Carrera GT came out that Porsche stated that its use of state of the art technology (carbon fiber and ceramic clutch) would eventually be seen throughout the entire Porsche model line up. I realize that the Carrera GT has only been around a couple of years but I feel like Porsche is lagging behind. Look at the Corvette Z06, it has carbon fiber and magnesium all over the place and it costs less than a 911. BMW has started to use carbon fiber on production cars with the M6 and its carbon fiber roof, which is a step in the right direction. I understand that carbon fiber cannot currently be produced at the same size and cost as most metals but I'm just getting tired of cars getting heavier. There are other solutions to the weight problem besides using carbon fiber like lightweight metals and plastics, and yes, some of those are expensive too. Just about ever new car gets a hike in power and weight, 997 included. I hope I'm not the only one when I say I value weight over HP (within reason). Suspension can only do so much to hide the fact that your car is a tank. Just imagine if the 997 Turbo had +/-500hp and weighed in at 2500lbs. That would really be something, not to say that the new Turbo won't be wonderful, it just could be so much more.



    Absolutely, I agree completely. I wrote on another thread that AmirGT2's pics of his 993TT and his 997S nose-to-nose shows how the 911 has enlarged over the years. I think one big way to reduce weight on the 911 is to reduce its size, but I do believe that this added girth on the 911 is partly an intentional design and engineering strategy to GT-ize the car to increase its appeal to a larger (both in size and number ) driving market. It would be ideal to my tastes to reverse this trend, though-maybe with a 911 "pocket-rocket" variant (smaller, lighter, but with all that power ).

    Nov 15, 2005 10:28:13 PM

    Texas911
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    Reply to: Turbo Al

    Re: Your car is obese

    Just to put things in perspective, my 1995 993 C2 weighs just as much as my 2005 997C2S. Even though its got all the major trappings of a modern day car. So I'd hardly call the 997 over weight.

    Its funny but all the 993 guys are under the assumption that the 997 is this pig of a car just because its physically bigger.

    Nov 15, 2005 10:37:11 PM

    Turbo Al Offline
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    Reply to: Texas911

    Re: Your car is obese

    Quote:
    Texas911 said:
    Just to put things in perspective, my 1995 993 C2 weighs just as much as my 2005 997C2S. Even though its got all the major trappings of a modern day car. So I'd hardly call the 997 over weight.

    Its funny but all the 993 guys are under the assumption that the 997 is this pig of a car just because its physically bigger.



    Good point,

    I think the 1998 993TTS weighed in at about 3,400 lb and the 2005 996TTS weighed in at about 3,500 lb, so about a 100 pound weight gain, not bad considering the increase in size.

    Nov 15, 2005 10:45:50 PM

    Justin
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    Reply to: Bennett

    Re: Your car is obese

    Porsche's more basic models like the standard Carreras and GT3 are still among the lightest sports cars on the market. These days a light sports car is considered to be around 3000 .lbs. For the hardcore crowd, there are cars like the Noble M400, which demonstrate the benefits of light weight design. Fast and a real driver's car.

    But the market does not really want anything more light. Because of Porsche's engineering ability, they have been able to make fast cars like the 911 Turbo. That it's 1000 .lbs heavier than a Noble is irrelevant to most buyers. It does the job of sport and street comfort perfectly for them.

    Yes, the lighter weight models tend to be more driver oriented. Faster reactions, more communicative, better handling. Everything benefits. But the market is relatively happy with what it has IMO. People keep buying. Cars keep getting faster and faster, even if the weight is going up in general.

    Wonder how the next Lotus Esprit will compare to the 997 Turbo. It will have a minimum of 400hp, but the weight could be the real issue. If they can make it 2500 .lbs, it would be about 1000 .lbs less than a 997 Turbo. Pretty interesting competition.

    - J

    PS: Even if the M6 does have a CF roof, it's still quite porky. Definitely a GT car.

    Nov 15, 2005 10:56:37 PM

    Bennett
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    Reply to: Turbo Al

    Re: Your car is obese

    Quote:
    Al Pettee said:
    Quote:
    Texas911 said:
    Just to put things in perspective, my 1995 993 C2 weighs just as much as my 2005 997C2S. Even though its got all the major trappings of a modern day car. So I'd hardly call the 997 over weight.

    Its funny but all the 993 guys are under the assumption that the 997 is this pig of a car just because its physically bigger.



    Good point,

    I think the 1998 993TTS weighed in at about 3,400 lb and the 2005 996TTS weighed in at about 3,500 lb, so about a 100 pound weight gain, not bad considering the increase in size.


    For its size, I would consider the 997 to be heavy. Let's have another look at the Z06, I know it doesn't look it, but it's actually the same size as the 997 and it weighs less. The Z06 is an excellent example of extra HP not at the expense of extra weight. The Z06 is lighter than the regular C6. I understand the Z06 doesn't have AWD and turbo piping all over the place, but it's a weight conscious car. I'm not aware of any steps Porsche takes to lower the weight of its Turbo model. It seems like they just add components, but I could be wrong on that one. Some may argue that if you're conscious of your cars weight go buy a GT2 or GT3, but I don't think lightweight should come at the price of practicality. The GT2 and GT3 do have luggage space and room inside but they're not even close to a Turbo in terms of everyday drivability. Considering the 911 Turbo costs twice as much as a Z06, I think throwing down some carbon fiber or taking other steps to lower its weight would be appropriate. The Z06 may be archaic to some with its leaf spring suspension and push-rod big bloc but it's hard to argue that it doesn't make all other sports car look overpriced. Sure, the 911 is probably the more involving car, I wouldn't know as I've never driven the Z06, but I don't think that driver involvement dictates a price tag double that of the Z06, not that the Z06 is void of feeling either.

    Nov 15, 2005 11:07:41 PM

    Grant
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    Reply to: Texas911

    Re: Your car is obese

    Quote:
    Texas911 said:Its funny but all the 993 guys are under the assumption that the 997 is this pig of a car just because its physically bigger.


    As a 993 owner, I can assure you that the 993 is definitely a pig too. However, it's a bit more tossable than the 996/997, just because of its smaller dimensions, as Al mentioned.

    My 911 makes my 993 feel like a Cadillac (and my 993 is lowered with sport coilovers, etc.)

    Nov 15, 2005 11:11:07 PM

    Grant
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    Reply to: Turbo Al

    Re: Your car is obese

    Quote:
    Al Pettee said:I think the 1998 993TTS weighed in at about 3,400 lb and the 2005 996TTS weighed in at about 3,500 lb, so about a 100 pound weight gain, not bad considering the increase in size.


    The weight gain may be 100 lbs, but a well-optioned 993TT or 996TTS in street trim with fuel each weighs considerably more than those specs above

    Nov 15, 2005 11:22:25 PM

    Bennett
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    Reply to: Justin

    Re: Your car is obese

    Quote:
    Justin said:
    Porsche's more basic models like the standard Carreras and GT3 are still among the lightest sports cars on the market. These days a light sports car is considered to be around 3000 .lbs. For the hardcore crowd, there are cars like the Noble M400, which demonstrate the benefits of light weight design. Fast and a real driver's car.

    But the market does not really want anything more light. Because of Porsche's engineering ability, they have been able to make fast cars like the 911 Turbo. That it's 1000 .lbs heavier than a Noble is irrelevant to most buyers. It does the job of sport and street comfort perfectly for them.

    Yes, the lighter weight models tend to be more driver oriented. Faster reactions, more communicative, better handling. Everything benefits. But the market is relatively happy with what it has IMO. People keep buying. Cars keep getting faster and faster, even if the weight is going up in general.

    Wonder how the next Lotus Esprit will compare to the 997 Turbo. It will have a minimum of 400hp, but the weight could be the real issue. If they can make it 2500 .lbs, it would be about 1000 .lbs less than a 997 Turbo. Pretty interesting competition.

    - J

    PS: Even if the M6 does have a CF roof, it's still quite porky. Definitely a GT car.


    I would not consider the GT3 to be a basic model. Do you mean that it shares more similarities with the base 911 as it doesn't have turbos and AWD? The Noble is somewhat irrelevant. With its low production numbers, it really isn't a huge competitor with the Turbo, at least in the US. I'm not sure about the rest of the world. I don't agree with the statement that the market does not want a reduction in weight. Weight reduction improves all areas of a car's performance, including fuel consumption. Remember, acceleration = force/mass. Yes, cars keep getting faster and faster but I don't think a Bugatti Veyron is going to win a slalom race any time soon. The public is happy with the weight of cars because they're not aware of the increase in weight, in most cases. When people go shopping for cars, weight is probably at the back of their mind. They want high HP and low 0-60 times. Lateral G and braking distances figures don't much time in the spotlight. Car companies generally refrain from making a cars weight it's selling point, Z06 and Lotus Elise aside.

    And yes, I agree that the M6's carbon fiber roof is not the the solution in itself but it's a step in the right direction. But like you said it's only a GT yet it's more weight conscious than a Turbo.

    Nov 16, 2005 12:03:58 AM

    Justin
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    Reply to: Bennett

    Re: Your car is obese

    By basic, I mean the car's without many toys or luxury items that add significant weight. I believe you can get a C4S Cab Tip up to some crazy weight.

    Quote:
    C4S Co-Driver said:I don't agree with the statement that the market does not want a reduction in weight....The public is happy with the weight of cars...



    Every time a new model comes out, manufacturers are applauded if they can keep the weight the same as the outgoing model. No disagreement from me on the benefits of reducing weight, but I don't see enough market pressure on manufacturers to reduce the weight of their mainstream models. Perhaps people are paying more attention with the Z06? Chevy wanted a certain level of performance and used weight as a way to achieve it. If other manufacturers wish to make their cars more competitive by comparison, maybe they will spent money in this area.

    As long as weight hovers a bit over 3000 .lbs and performance stays high, people will not care about weight as much as you think. Most people would rather add 100hp than lose a few hundred .lbs of weight. How many Ferrari owners are complaining about the weight of the F430? How many 997 owners? Not many. In fact, not enough of them to make it financially reasonable for Porsche to listen to their concerns for the standard models. Remember Porsche is all about profit margins. It's a company after all. These light weight materials cost more money, as does producing special low volume models. Notice the GT3 and 360CS and the premium that is charged. Even Lotus charges $400 for A/C delete.

    Don't get me wrong here. I have an Elise after all (needs some power though), and would love a 2500 .lbs Porsche with around 300-350hp. But cars like these are reserved for the special production models only. I don't believe there is signifcant pressure from other competing companies or pressure from consumers.

    At 3400 .lbs the 997 Turbo will still be a hit, and those wanting lighter weight will go for a different model. Where is the motivation to reduce its weight? So far I only see competition from the Z06 in this regard and I'm not sure how many Porsche buyers it is really going to steal.

    - J

    Nov 16, 2005 12:05:54 AM

    edz
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    Reply to: Bennett

    Re: Your car is obese

    The Z06 weighs less because the nose is carbon fiber material and it's slightly shorter than the regular vette. This how they achieved the performance that they have. I thought the vette was $75,000 until Grant corrected me, it's actually $65K!

    Nov 16, 2005 1:09:49 AM

    amjf088
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    Reply to: edz

    Re: Your car is obese

    Well, from the Chevrolet website, the Z06 weighs 3132 lbs, from the Porsche website the 997 S weighs 3131 lbs. Both are curb weight. Naturally, if you go for tiptonic or lots of options it will be more. But the fact is, that as amazing a deal as the Z06 is, all the carbon fibre and magnesium did not make a lighter car than a Carerra S.

    Nov 16, 2005 2:19:52 AM

    Bennett
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    Reply to: Justin

    Re: Your car is obese

    Quote:
    Justin said:
    By basic, I mean the car's without many toys or luxury items that add significant weight. I believe you can get a C4S Cab Tip up to some crazy weight.

    Quote:
    C4S Co-Driver said:I don't agree with the statement that the market does not want a reduction in weight....The public is happy with the weight of cars...



    Every time a new model comes out, manufacturers are applauded if they can keep the weight the same as the outgoing model. No disagreement from me on the benefits of reducing weight, but I don't see enough market pressure on manufacturers to reduce the weight of their mainstream models. Perhaps people are paying more attention with the Z06? Chevy wanted a certain level of performance and used weight as a way to achieve it. If other manufacturers wish to make their cars more competitive by comparison, maybe they will spent money in this area.

    As long as weight hovers a bit over 3000 .lbs and performance stays high, people will not care about weight as much as you think. Most people would rather add 100hp than lose a few hundred .lbs of weight. How many Ferrari owners are complaining about the weight of the F430? How many 997 owners? Not many. In fact, not enough of them to make it financially reasonable for Porsche to listen to their concerns for the standard models. Remember Porsche is all about profit margins. It's a company after all. These light weight materials cost more money, as does producing special low volume models. Notice the GT3 and 360CS and the premium that is charged. Even Lotus charges $400 for A/C delete.

    Don't get me wrong here. I have an Elise after all (needs some power though), and would love a 2500 .lbs Porsche with around 300-350hp. But cars like these are reserved for the special production models only. I don't believe there is signifcant pressure from other competing companies or pressure from consumers.

    At 3400 .lbs the 997 Turbo will still be a hit, and those wanting lighter weight will go for a different model. Where is the motivation to reduce its weight? So far I only see competition from the Z06 in this regard and I'm not sure how many Porsche buyers it is really going to steal.

    - J


    Thanks for highlighting the error in my last post. The point I was trying to make with those two contradictory statements is that people are happy with current car weight because they're not aware of the inherent benefits from a reduction in weight as car manufacturers shy away from discussing car weight in most cases. Instead, they mention how much HP the new model has and how fast it goes from 0-60. The point of my original post was that people on this forum are not the average consumer. We actually care about weight, braking distance, gear ratios and much more. I thought it was interesting/disconcerting that everyone seemed fine with the fact that the new Turbo is going to be heavier than the model it replaced, and all everyone could talk about was how much HP it was going to have. I guess that considering we live in the "golden age of horsepower", it's all people focus on. HP is important, but there are other things which are just as, if not more, important in determining a car's level of performance.

    Nov 16, 2005 2:45:41 AM

    Bennett
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    Reply to: edz

    Re: Your car is obese

    Quote:
    edz61 said:
    The Z06 weighs less because the nose is carbon fiber material and it's slightly shorter than the regular vette. This how they achieved the performance that they have. I thought the vette was $75,000 until Grant corrected me, it's actually $65K!


    The Z06 just has higher performance parts which add extra weight, such as larger brakes and tires. The Z06 is not lighter solely because of its carbon fiber fenders. It also has an aluminum chassis and a magnesium engine brace and roof structure. The Z06 is actually the same length and height as the standard C6 and is actually 3 inches wider. Size does not mean that one car is heavier than another. The Z06 got performance extras but used lightweight materials to keep weight down, Porsche just adds the performance goodies and the weight goes up.

    Quote:
    amjf088
    Well, from the Chevrolet website, the Z06 weighs 3132 lbs, from the Porsche website the 997 S weighs 3131 lbs. Both are curb weight. Naturally, if you go for tiptonic or lots of options it will be more. But the fact is, that as amazing a deal as the Z06 is, all the carbon fibre and magnesium did not make a lighter car than a Carerra S.


    The ZO6 does not compete with the base 911. It competes with the Turbo and that weighs 300-400lbs more. Also, I looked up the Z06's weight online and according to the Corvette press release it actually weighs 3130lbs, but one pound either way is not bad.

    I realize I sound like a huge Corvette fan but that's not the case. I just applaud them on their extensive weight reduction plan.

    Nov 16, 2005 2:52:05 AM

    DamienL
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    Reply to: Bennett

    Re: Your car is obese

    It's very hard not to appreciate the ZO6, especially at its price. You don't sound like a huge Vette fan, just a huge car fan.

    Nov 16, 2005 3:04:43 AM

    Turbo Al Offline
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    Reply to: DamienL

    Re: Your car is obese

    Quote:
    DamienL said:
    It's very hard not to appreciate the ZO6, especially at its price. You don't sound like a huge Vette fan, just a huge car fan.



    That describes me. Who can't appreciate the ZO6? Even if its handling/suspension is "typical" Corvette, the car reportedly performs astoundingly. I still would like to get confirmation of an official 'Ring time, and a reliable, independent testdrive/review.

    Nov 16, 2005 3:21:16 AM

    r00t61
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    Reply to: DamienL

    Re: Your car is obese

    I'll second C4S Co-Driver here. I'm now forced into waiting for the 997 GT3/GT2 variants to make their debuts because the 997TT sounds more and more like a (relative) porker every day. For the same reason, I gag every single time I read another review of the E90 M5 that gushes over how it "handles just like a race car." For cying out loud, people! You can't hide ~4000 lbs with a fancy electronic suspension!
    Okay, rant over.

    Nov 16, 2005 3:47:29 AM

    Grant
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    Reply to: r00t61

    Re: Your car is obese

    Quote:
    r00t61 said:
    I'll second C4S Co-Driver here. I'm now forced into waiting for the 997 GT3/GT2 variants to make their debuts because the 997TT sounds more and more like a (relative) porker every day. For the same reason, I gag every single time I read another review of the E90 M5 that gushes over how it "handles just like a race car." For cying out loud, people! You can't hide ~4000 lbs with a fancy electronic suspension!
    Okay, rant over.


    I agree, but don't be fooled into thinking the GT2/3 are lightweights either. They each weigh about as much as a 1980's BMW 5-series sedan

    Nov 16, 2005 4:04:27 AM

    Hurst
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    Reply to: Grant

    Re: Your car is obese

    Why do people think the Turbo competes with the Z06? The Turbo is a luxurious ride. The Z06 is practically a track car. Where do these comparisons come from?

    Nov 16, 2005 4:33:41 AM

    U Boat Commander
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    Reply to: DamienL

    Re: Your car is obese

    I really sort of agree with the first comment. The 996 Turbo was actually 3500 lbs before adding on the options. That's a relatively heavy sports car. Compare that to the 996 GT2, which was only 3175. The 911s are getting bigger and heavier with each new model. I imagine that the 997 Turbo will be at least 3600 lbs. I don't think that is a good thing. As noted above, the 997 is now bigger than the current generation Corvette.

    Nov 16, 2005 5:36:28 AM

    Yargk
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    Reply to: Bennett

    Re: Your car is obese

    The 997 is absolutely overweight. It can't be denied that the car would be a lot more fun and lively at less than 2800 pounds. I wish the factory used more lightweight materials, but that's obviously not the only problem when the factory thinks 70 pound power "sport" seats are needed. (I think power sport seats is an oxymoron). I've all but given up on convincing people of this though since most nowadays most think that only a race driver can tell the difference (to me a car feels much more responsive even when I just lose a 100 pound passenger). It's hard to expect car manufacturers to care nowadays either. So I'll just keep quiet (oops too late) and order my 997 GT3, enjoy it for a couple years, and then instead of getting a 998 GT3 I'll get a full carbon body and put a light weight interior in the 997.

    Nov 16, 2005 8:04:45 AM

    Jeff (in SF)
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    Reply to: Yargk

    Re: Your car is obese

    Interesting to read about wishes for carbon fiber. Remember, it's still a relatively new material in automobiles and given that most Porsche owners expect to use & maintain their cars for 15 to 30 years, I'm not sure that it's been proven that carbon fiber can maintain all its fantastic properties (including crash worthiness) over such a long period. As a plastic, I'd expect it to experience some sort of deterioration over time. Any chemists on this board?

    Nov 16, 2005 9:21:17 AM

    Yargk
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    Reply to: Jeff (in SF)

    Re: Your car is obese

    Quote:
    Jeff (in SF) said:
    Interesting to read about wishes for carbon fiber. Remember, it's still a relatively new material in automobiles and given that most Porsche owners expect to use & maintain their cars for 15 to 30 years, I'm not sure that it's been proven that carbon fiber can maintain all its fantastic properties (including crash worthiness) over such a long period. As a plastic, I'd expect it to experience some sort of deterioration over time. Any chemists on this board?



    Hopefully the steel chassis takes care of the crash worthiness, body panels shouldn't have much to do with that (hopefully). Carbon body panels are un-repairable as far as I know so I may have to replace some of them. However I was under the impression that while fiberglass falls apart after a while carbon fiber will be fine until something hits it. A frequent poster here has a carbon fiber bodied 1973 911 so I thought: why not a 2007 GT3 with one?

    Nov 16, 2005 9:28:50 AM

    DRA
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    Reply to: Bennett

    Re: Your car is obese

    Quote:
    C4S Co-Driver said:
    I realize I sound like a huge Corvette fan but that's not the case. I just applaud them on their extensive weight reduction plan.



    The question is, what have they sacrificed to get there?

    Is the car as safe as a Turbo?

    What about heat shielding and NVH?

    Can you drive it every day, take your girlfriend (or wife) out in it (without endless complaints), bring the kids to school with it (etc.)

    Considerations which I doubt the Z06 team even thought about, but I'm sure a lot Porsche guys do think about.

    Want something more hardcore? The GT2/GT3 will fill the niche. How many of them do they sell?

    Myself, having extensive experience with the Lotus Elise (not to mention the Exige) I can say they are a wonderful car to drive, but I'd hate to have an accident in one and ultimately, they don't perform better than a Boxster S - so what's the point? The light-weight and "feelsome" crowd have a lot of options these days other than Porsche.

    When was the last car that Porsche produced truely "light weight" like a Lotus? ... Maybe they never made one.

    In think the Turbo is going to be the "Ronnie Coleman" of sports cars - the big nasty and will still be able to take them all on.

    Nov 16, 2005 9:41:02 AM

    JimFlat6
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    Reply to: Yargk

    Re: Your car is obese

    Chevy thought all about NVH and daily use of the Z06. Their plan was to make the most bad ass accellerating and handling car for the money, and they succeeded.

    Newest Porsche attempts at weight savings .....

    Hollow half axles on the new Cayman. Im not sure those are also used on the Boxsters and Carreras.

    All of their 2006 cars now use a smaller, aluminum axle hub to save weight and reduce unsprung weight.

    Some stuff they are just stuck with, like the large wheels and tires needed to control the latest hp.

    Some fat boy stuff was from customer input. The heavy dual mass clutch system and extra rear sound insulation is there
    because pre 996 customers whined about hearing the gearbox.

    The sub chassis with hydraulic cushioning that the engine and transaxle are mounted is another attempt to make the car quieter and more luxurious to justify the price point.

    The heavy power steering rack and cooler is there to compensate for the ever bigger front wheels and tyres.

    I wonder if Porsche stripped out a lot of sound insulation, the A/C, power steering, power seats out of a Cayman S, put 17's, smaller tires and a lighter weight exhaust system if it wouldnt hit 2700lbs?

    Nov 16, 2005 12:04:51 PM

    DRA
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    Reply to: JimFlat6

    Re: Your car is obese

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    I wonder if Porsche stripped out a lot of sound insulation, the A/C, power steering, power seats out of a Cayman S, put 17's, smaller tires and a lighter weight exhaust system if it wouldnt hit 2700lbs?



    It would make a great limited production run. Give the engine the motorsport oiling mod and you'd have a real winner for road and track, no?

    But it still wouldn't please many hardcore enthusiasts. Talk to some Lotus guys some time ... Anything over 2200lb is "fat" and "overweight."

    Frankly, I think there's middle ground, albeit the Turbo is definately on the upper end of the spectrum for acceptable sport car weight.

    Then again, the Turbo was always the more luxurious model right?

    Nov 16, 2005 1:38:26 PM

    FutchM
    Rennteam Moderator
    Futch
    Loc: EU , United Kingdom
    Posts: 4759, Gallery
    Registered on: May 14, 2002
    Reply to: Bennett

    Re: Your car is obese

    Quote:
    C4S Co-Driver said:
    Quote:
    Al Pettee said:
    Quote:
    Texas911 said:
    Just to put things in perspective, my 1995 993 C2 weighs just as much as my 2005 997C2S. Even though its got all the major trappings of a modern day car. So I'd hardly call the 997 over weight.

    Its funny but all the 993 guys are under the assumption that the 997 is this pig of a car just because its physically bigger.



    Good point,

    I think the 1998 993TTS weighed in at about 3,400 lb and the 2005 996TTS weighed in at about 3,500 lb, so about a 100 pound weight gain, not bad considering the increase in size.


    For its size, I would consider the 997 to be heavy. Let's have another look at the Z06, I know it doesn't look it, but it's actually the same size as the 997 and it weighs less. The Z06 is an excellent example of extra HP not at the expense of extra weight. The Z06 is lighter than the regular C6. I understand the Z06 doesn't have AWD and turbo piping all over the place, but it's a weight conscious car. I'm not aware of any steps Porsche takes to lower the weight of its Turbo model. It seems like they just add components, but I could be wrong on that one. Some may argue that if you're conscious of your cars weight go buy a GT2 or GT3, but I don't think lightweight should come at the price of practicality. The GT2 and GT3 do have luggage space and room inside but they're not even close to a Turbo in terms of everyday drivability. Considering the 911 Turbo costs twice as much as a Z06, I think throwing down some carbon fiber or taking other steps to lower its weight would be appropriate. The Z06 may be archaic to some with its leaf spring suspension and push-rod big bloc but it's hard to argue that it doesn't make all other sports car look overpriced. Sure, the 911 is probably the more involving car, I wouldn't know as I've never driven the Z06, but I don't think that driver involvement dictates a price tag double that of the Z06, not that the Z06 is void of feeling either.



    It's the concept of the engine that is very old in the Corvette, everything else is mighty impressive (apart from the rather bland and low quality interior too).
    But in terms of weight, The Corvette and the 911 are both on the "light" end of the spectrum I would say.
    A 911S with PCCB weighs less than 1400 kgs, very impressive when you know that the potential competition is at least 100 kgs heavier to a full 400 (Aston V8, Maserati, M6, SL55, etc.)
    It's not light compared to 70s sports cars by any means, but today's sports cars need to be safer and more versatile (GT attributes) hence the weight.

    Nov 16, 2005 3:46:57 PM

    Le Chef
    Veteran
    Le Chef
    Loc: Chicago , United States
    Posts: 1059, Gallery
    Registered on: Jul 3, 2003
    Reply to: Bennett

    Atkins Diet!

    Porsche could do more to lighten their cars, but undoubtedly the price would go up.

    I would love to see Porsche take on the "VH" approach that Aston-Martin have "borrowed" from Lotus in using aluminum for the key stress/load bearing corner components of the tub, and much more aluminum for non-stressed panels of the car. It gives you incredibly lightness, strength, and manufacturing flexibility.

    Audi have the aluminum experience but not the "VH" approach yet. Since Porsche will own 20% of VAG before long it would be a smart move to start to use some of that shareholding to force VAG to share the technology. Imagine a lightweight future Cayenne...or imagine a lightweight Cayman GT3...

    Nov 16, 2005 6:48:37 PM

    amjf088
    Co-Pilot
    amjf088
    Loc: Toronto, Canada , Canada
    Posts: 256, Gallery
    Registered on: Jan 6, 2005
    Reply to: Bennett

    Re: Your car is obese

    Quote:
    C4S Co-Driver said:
    Quote:
    edz61 said:
    The Z06 weighs less because the nose is carbon fiber material and it's slightly shorter than the regular vette. This how they achieved the performance that they have. I thought the vette was $75,000 until Grant corrected me, it's actually $65K!


    The Z06 just has higher performance parts which add extra weight, such as larger brakes and tires. The Z06 is not lighter solely because of its carbon fiber fenders. It also has an aluminum chassis and a magnesium engine brace and roof structure. The Z06 is actually the same length and height as the standard C6 and is actually 3 inches wider. Size does not mean that one car is heavier than another. The Z06 got performance extras but used lightweight materials to keep weight down, Porsche just adds the performance goodies and the weight goes up.

    Quote:
    amjf088
    Well, from the Chevrolet website, the Z06 weighs 3132 lbs, from the Porsche website the 997 S weighs 3131 lbs. Both are curb weight. Naturally, if you go for tiptonic or lots of options it will be more. But the fact is, that as amazing a deal as the Z06 is, all the carbon fibre and magnesium did not make a lighter car than a Carerra S.


    The ZO6 does not compete with the base 911. It competes with the Turbo and that weighs 300-400lbs more. Also, I looked up the Z06's weight online and according to the Corvette press release it actually weighs 3130lbs, but one pound either way is not bad.

    I realize I sound like a huge Corvette fan but that's not the case. I just applaud them on their extensive weight reduction plan.



    In the sixth post of the thread you stated that the 997 was heavier than a Z06 and that is simply not correct. Sure, a turbo will weigh more, with all wheel drive and the other glitzy stuff that people want in cars these days.

    On another note, steel outer body panels do make a contribution to energy dissipation in a crash, not just the under-structure.

    However, you are right, the two cars are not really direct competitors and the Z06 offers sheer performamce above a Carrera S at a bargain price.

    Nov 16, 2005 7:44:30 PM

    Texas911
    Senior
    Texas911
    Loc: Houston, Texas - USA
    Posts: 766, Gallery
    Registered on: Aug 21, 2003
    Reply to: amjf088

    Re: Your car is obese

    If you want to see what a light weight car would be like, check out the Lotus Elise. I for one wouldn't want to drive that car everyday. I think Porsche does a good job of balancing performance with practicality.
     
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