Quote:
C4S Co-Driver said:
Recent discussion of the 997 Turbo and its impending weight has me worried. I remember when the Carrera GT came out that Porsche stated that its use of state of the art technology (carbon fiber and ceramic clutch) would eventually be seen throughout the entire Porsche model line up. I realize that the Carrera GT has only been around a couple of years but I feel like Porsche is lagging behind. Look at the Corvette Z06, it has carbon fiber and magnesium all over the place and it costs less than a 911. BMW has started to use carbon fiber on production cars with the M6 and its carbon fiber roof, which is a step in the right direction. I understand that carbon fiber cannot currently be produced at the same size and cost as most metals but I'm just getting tired of cars getting heavier. There are other solutions to the weight problem besides using carbon fiber like lightweight metals and plastics, and yes, some of those are expensive too. Just about ever new car gets a hike in power and weight, 997 included. I hope I'm not the only one when I say I value weight over HP (within reason). Suspension can only do so much to hide the fact that your car is a tank. Just imagine if the 997 Turbo had +/-500hp and weighed in at 2500lbs. That would really be something, not to say that the new Turbo won't be wonderful, it just could be so much more.
Quote:
Texas911 said:
Just to put things in perspective, my 1995 993 C2 weighs just as much as my 2005 997C2S. Even though its got all the major trappings of a modern day car. So I'd hardly call the 997 over weight.
Its funny but all the 993 guys are under the assumption that the 997 is this pig of a car just because its physically bigger.
Quote:
Al Pettee said:Quote:
Texas911 said:
Just to put things in perspective, my 1995 993 C2 weighs just as much as my 2005 997C2S. Even though its got all the major trappings of a modern day car. So I'd hardly call the 997 over weight.
Its funny but all the 993 guys are under the assumption that the 997 is this pig of a car just because its physically bigger.
Good point,
I think the 1998 993TTS weighed in at about 3,400 lb and the 2005 996TTS weighed in at about 3,500 lb, so about a 100 pound weight gain, not bad considering the increase in size.
Quote:
Texas911 said:Its funny but all the 993 guys are under the assumption that the 997 is this pig of a car just because its physically bigger.
Quote:
Al Pettee said:I think the 1998 993TTS weighed in at about 3,400 lb and the 2005 996TTS weighed in at about 3,500 lb, so about a 100 pound weight gain, not bad considering the increase in size.
Quote:
Justin said:
Porsche's more basic models like the standard Carreras and GT3 are still among the lightest sports cars on the market. These days a light sports car is considered to be around 3000 .lbs. For the hardcore crowd, there are cars like the Noble M400, which demonstrate the benefits of light weight design. Fast and a real driver's car.
But the market does not really want anything more light. Because of Porsche's engineering ability, they have been able to make fast cars like the 911 Turbo. That it's 1000 .lbs heavier than a Noble is irrelevant to most buyers. It does the job of sport and street comfort perfectly for them.
Yes, the lighter weight models tend to be more driver oriented. Faster reactions, more communicative, better handling. Everything benefits. But the market is relatively happy with what it has IMO. People keep buying. Cars keep getting faster and faster, even if the weight is going up in general.
Wonder how the next Lotus Esprit will compare to the 997 Turbo. It will have a minimum of 400hp, but the weight could be the real issue. If they can make it 2500 .lbs, it would be about 1000 .lbs less than a 997 Turbo. Pretty interesting competition.
- J
PS: Even if the M6 does have a CF roof, it's still quite porky. Definitely a GT car.
Quote:
C4S Co-Driver said:I don't agree with the statement that the market does not want a reduction in weight....The public is happy with the weight of cars...
Quote:
Justin said:
By basic, I mean the car's without many toys or luxury items that add significant weight. I believe you can get a C4S Cab Tip up to some crazy weight.Quote:
C4S Co-Driver said:I don't agree with the statement that the market does not want a reduction in weight....The public is happy with the weight of cars...
Every time a new model comes out, manufacturers are applauded if they can keep the weight the same as the outgoing model. No disagreement from me on the benefits of reducing weight, but I don't see enough market pressure on manufacturers to reduce the weight of their mainstream models. Perhaps people are paying more attention with the Z06? Chevy wanted a certain level of performance and used weight as a way to achieve it. If other manufacturers wish to make their cars more competitive by comparison, maybe they will spent money in this area.
As long as weight hovers a bit over 3000 .lbs and performance stays high, people will not care about weight as much as you think. Most people would rather add 100hp than lose a few hundred .lbs of weight. How many Ferrari owners are complaining about the weight of the F430? How many 997 owners? Not many. In fact, not enough of them to make it financially reasonable for Porsche to listen to their concerns for the standard models. Remember Porsche is all about profit margins. It's a company after all. These light weight materials cost more money, as does producing special low volume models. Notice the GT3 and 360CS and the premium that is charged. Even Lotus charges $400 for A/C delete.
Don't get me wrong here. I have an Elise after all (needs some power though), and would love a 2500 .lbs Porsche with around 300-350hp. But cars like these are reserved for the special production models only. I don't believe there is signifcant pressure from other competing companies or pressure from consumers.
At 3400 .lbs the 997 Turbo will still be a hit, and those wanting lighter weight will go for a different model. Where is the motivation to reduce its weight? So far I only see competition from the Z06 in this regard and I'm not sure how many Porsche buyers it is really going to steal.
- J
Quote:
edz61 said:
The Z06 weighs less because the nose is carbon fiber material and it's slightly shorter than the regular vette. This how they achieved the performance that they have. I thought the vette was $75,000 until Grant corrected me, it's actually $65K!
Quote:
amjf088
Well, from the Chevrolet website, the Z06 weighs 3132 lbs, from the Porsche website the 997 S weighs 3131 lbs. Both are curb weight. Naturally, if you go for tiptonic or lots of options it will be more. But the fact is, that as amazing a deal as the Z06 is, all the carbon fibre and magnesium did not make a lighter car than a Carerra S.
Quote:
DamienL said:
It's very hard not to appreciate the ZO6, especially at its price. You don't sound like a huge Vette fan, just a huge car fan.
Quote:
r00t61 said:
I'll second C4S Co-Driver here. I'm now forced into waiting for the 997 GT3/GT2 variants to make their debuts because the 997TT sounds more and more like a (relative) porker every day. For the same reason, I gag every single time I read another review of the E90 M5 that gushes over how it "handles just like a race car." For cying out loud, people! You can't hide ~4000 lbs with a fancy electronic suspension!
Okay, rant over.
Nov 16, 2005 4:33:41 AM
Nov 16, 2005 8:04:45 AM
Nov 16, 2005 9:21:17 AM
Quote:
Jeff (in SF) said:
Interesting to read about wishes for carbon fiber. Remember, it's still a relatively new material in automobiles and given that most Porsche owners expect to use & maintain their cars for 15 to 30 years, I'm not sure that it's been proven that carbon fiber can maintain all its fantastic properties (including crash worthiness) over such a long period. As a plastic, I'd expect it to experience some sort of deterioration over time. Any chemists on this board?
Quote:
C4S Co-Driver said:
I realize I sound like a huge Corvette fan but that's not the case. I just applaud them on their extensive weight reduction plan.
Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
I wonder if Porsche stripped out a lot of sound insulation, the A/C, power steering, power seats out of a Cayman S, put 17's, smaller tires and a lighter weight exhaust system if it wouldnt hit 2700lbs?
Quote:
C4S Co-Driver said:Quote:
Al Pettee said:Quote:
Texas911 said:
Just to put things in perspective, my 1995 993 C2 weighs just as much as my 2005 997C2S. Even though its got all the major trappings of a modern day car. So I'd hardly call the 997 over weight.
Its funny but all the 993 guys are under the assumption that the 997 is this pig of a car just because its physically bigger.
Good point,
I think the 1998 993TTS weighed in at about 3,400 lb and the 2005 996TTS weighed in at about 3,500 lb, so about a 100 pound weight gain, not bad considering the increase in size.
For its size, I would consider the 997 to be heavy. Let's have another look at the Z06, I know it doesn't look it, but it's actually the same size as the 997 and it weighs less. The Z06 is an excellent example of extra HP not at the expense of extra weight. The Z06 is lighter than the regular C6. I understand the Z06 doesn't have AWD and turbo piping all over the place, but it's a weight conscious car. I'm not aware of any steps Porsche takes to lower the weight of its Turbo model. It seems like they just add components, but I could be wrong on that one. Some may argue that if you're conscious of your cars weight go buy a GT2 or GT3, but I don't think lightweight should come at the price of practicality. The GT2 and GT3 do have luggage space and room inside but they're not even close to a Turbo in terms of everyday drivability. Considering the 911 Turbo costs twice as much as a Z06, I think throwing down some carbon fiber or taking other steps to lower its weight would be appropriate. The Z06 may be archaic to some with its leaf spring suspension and push-rod big bloc but it's hard to argue that it doesn't make all other sports car look overpriced. Sure, the 911 is probably the more involving car, I wouldn't know as I've never driven the Z06, but I don't think that driver involvement dictates a price tag double that of the Z06, not that the Z06 is void of feeling either.
Quote:
C4S Co-Driver said:Quote:
edz61 said:
The Z06 weighs less because the nose is carbon fiber material and it's slightly shorter than the regular vette. This how they achieved the performance that they have. I thought the vette was $75,000 until Grant corrected me, it's actually $65K!
The Z06 just has higher performance parts which add extra weight, such as larger brakes and tires. The Z06 is not lighter solely because of its carbon fiber fenders. It also has an aluminum chassis and a magnesium engine brace and roof structure. The Z06 is actually the same length and height as the standard C6 and is actually 3 inches wider. Size does not mean that one car is heavier than another. The Z06 got performance extras but used lightweight materials to keep weight down, Porsche just adds the performance goodies and the weight goes up.Quote:
amjf088
Well, from the Chevrolet website, the Z06 weighs 3132 lbs, from the Porsche website the 997 S weighs 3131 lbs. Both are curb weight. Naturally, if you go for tiptonic or lots of options it will be more. But the fact is, that as amazing a deal as the Z06 is, all the carbon fibre and magnesium did not make a lighter car than a Carerra S.
The ZO6 does not compete with the base 911. It competes with the Turbo and that weighs 300-400lbs more. Also, I looked up the Z06's weight online and according to the Corvette press release it actually weighs 3130lbs, but one pound either way is not bad.
I realize I sound like a huge Corvette fan but that's not the case. I just applaud them on their extensive weight reduction plan.