Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: Corvette Etiquette - The Heck With It? - Page1

Sep 18, 2007 8:57:29 PM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: 69bossnine

Re: Corvette Etiquette - The Heck With It?

Quote:
69bossnine said:

But this also brings up a point.... How do you, online, trash and insult Corvettes in a way that goes beyond unbiased critical-analysis, and then on the other hand, be surprised on the road when they decide not to return your waves... Do you think that they don't see snippets and cut/pastes from Porsche forums on their Corvette forums??

Nice work.

The _styling_ of the Corvette is verrrry bad. Verrrry GM.

Middle-of-the-road, please-everybody, lowest-common-denominator. Too many design cues from the past are retained and incorporated into new cars; they won't let go of them! Newest car is a MESS. It's got other technical issues too.

A guy who buys one apparently isn't bothered by enough by GM styling deficiency to NOT buy one.

He likes his car, I like my car. We both like the cars enough to buy them. I feel like waving to a fellow car guy when we're obviously checking eachother's out; he can wave back or not. BFD.

No reason for me to "dis" a guy because the crummy GM styling doesn't bother him enough not to drive one, right?

Matter of fact..., I'd be glad to share with him all my dislikes of Porsche's styling and other issues!

I hope that helps.

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Sep 18, 2007 9:50:01 PM

69bossnine: Rennteam Pro; Loc: FL, USA , United States; Posts: 2028, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 27, 2005; Reply to: MMD

Re: Corvette Etiquette - The Heck With It?

Quote:
MMD said: Too many design cues from the past are retained and incorporated into new cars; they won't let go of them!

Hey, Pot?? I'd like you to meet someone.... This is Kettle... Kettle? Pot... Pot? Kettle..

I mean, c'mon... A 997 owner dissing GM for retaining and incorporating past styling cues.....

You're killing me...

Honestly, have you ever seen The Big Lebowski where Dude reacts to Jesus's rant with, "Yeah...well..you know... that's just, like, your opinion, man...."

It applies here in spades. While I was away at the Glenmoor Gathering Concours this weekend, did I miss where you were crowned Automotive Styling as Art God Emeritus by the ghosts of Andy Warhol and Frank Lloyd Wright?

The Corvette isn't bad, it's just different.... You're trying to compare smooth jazz with Seattle grunge my friend... One's not better than the other, they're just different, which is what makes automobiles so friggin much fun, the variety, and the different manners of artistic expression.. The manner in which you attack the Corvette's styling reeks more of stereotype and snobbery than it does plain old fair analysis...

Just because you're into classical, I again, find it quite snooty how you comment on items that have no INTENTION of appearing as-such... Some people LOVE the style and the up-front attitude of the Corvette..

Myself, I think it's alright... I love the creases, but get lost on the poor proportion at certain angles...

But I try to reserve my criticisms to being those of objective design principles, I don't go trashing things just because I'm so psychopathically conservative and minimalist, that everything else on the planet is crap if it isn't likewise...

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Sep 19, 2007 12:18:39 AM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: 69bossnine

Re: Corvette Etiquette - The Heck With It?

Nice "everyman's" argument for aesthetics. Nice because it usually works; it seems water tight: for the uninitiated.

IOW, what you claim is any consideration of aesthetics enjoys no objective standards, only personal preferences.

Maybe get some formal education on art and aesthetics and learn what all the fuss is about. Uh oh..., would that be "snobbery" for me to suggest that you'd benefit from such a thing?

Here's some facts that offer a clue: Andy Warhol was for the most part the biggest ahole farce of all time (interesting for those reasons alone). FLW was by definition a True Genius. For the informed, it's very difficult (i.e. a travesty) to see the importance of the work of these two in the same light.

"Objective design principles," may I suggest you don't understand what they are? How do I suspect this? Because I made a simple though coherent argument (with pictures) of why the 997 is _NOT_ a much-heralded homage to the original 911 anymore than any other 911 is. All you did was get in there with army boots and start stomping around.

It's like Art with a capital A. There's good art and bad art and it takes lots of study and consideration to sort thru the stuff that's not _obviously_ in either catagory.

The latest Corvette design stinks, like so much else on the popular and mass market scene today it's an amalgam, a pastiche, not a unified coherent whole.

Let's have your rebuttal and call this exchange done.

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Sep 19, 2007 12:42:39 PM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: MMD

Re: Corvette Etiquette - The Heck With It?

I like the current Porsche "River Rock" or tear drop shape because it stems from early aerodynamic intentions. In industrial design it's extremely valid to borrow from Nature and to fit form and function as closely together as possible..

Today's "messy," overdone, tired Corvette stems from where exactly? A 'jacked Ferrari design from the 50s? A bunch of parts and styling cues which came from other popular mass-marketed _American_cars?

Yeah, one's not "better" than the other: "they're just different."

Riiiiight..., Like Mickey Spillane and James Joyce, they are often seen drinking in the same bars and hanging out.

Gotta run... .

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Sep 19, 2007 3:14:39 PM

69bossnine: Rennteam Pro; Loc: FL, USA , United States; Posts: 2028, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 27, 2005; Reply to: MMD

Re: Corvette Etiquette - The Heck With It?

Predictable debate tactic... spread so much buttery frosting on the cake that no one may notice it's dry inside...

How convenient to overlook that as a "functional" design, the 911 requires a spoiler jacked-up or mounted-to the ars to actually function at higher speeds... Why worry about such flaws, when it just sounds so nice and frilly and bird-twirty to extol a design's one-ness with nature...

Aerodynamics and erosion, you really get into trouble assuming the same principles apply...

For over 40 years Porsche engineers have literally walked on water making an inherently flawed layout and design work, and win... Don't credit nature, credit man, and credit big honking whale tails...

I don't see the latest Corvette as "messy", and laugh out loud that the owner of a Twin Turbo would be tossing that insult about.. (you want to see messy? Walk out to your garage..) I don't see it as tired either. My biggest dig on the Corvette is that they sacrificed more form for funtion than I'm comfortable with aesthically... But is that something to trash a car over?? That a sports car would actually sacrifice some looks and proportion in favor of function? It's a valid reason to not PREFER a car, but it's not a fair reason to blanket it in redneck stereotypes..

I understand that the art may be in the balance, but I don't have a problem with a company injecting a bit of "racer's mentality" in saying "screw the looks a little bit, what are we here for, a parade, or a gawd-damn race?"

Lastly, I pulled a couple of cultural icons out of thin air, not really giving a rat's rear whether they were farcical in the opinion of some faction of fashion-police...

Just get over it and be honest with yourself, when you see the Corvette, you cringe because it just isn't YOU... It's not your bag, no more than you likely have the full catalog of Alice in Chains sitting on your shelf...

Art can be found at an exclusive gallery, or at a road-side flea market, but only if you're willing to lose your preconceptions and toss the text-book nonsense into proper context.

We could argue this FOREVER..., but I'd rather not... I'm debating aesthetics with a guy who considers brake dust to be a fashion statement..

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Sep 20, 2007 12:37:02 PM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: 69bossnine

Re: Corvette Etiquette - The Heck With It?

Quote:
69bossnine said:

Just get over it and be honest with yourself, when you see the Corvette, you cringe because it just isn't YOU...

[edited]

I'm debating aesthetics with a guy who considers brake dust to be a fashion statement..

I agree, this "debate" is ridiculous. My POV is not exclusively mine, it represents a common consensus among artists and designers. (viz: the GM-corvette styling is "junked up" to please everybody). BTW, If I may suggest regarding river rocks, it's not quite erosion as much as it's fluid dynamics which overarches aerodynamics; so I stand by my earlier reference.

I'm honest with myself and the general public: I exclaimed here in the past several times: I'd buy a Corvette if it didn't look soooo ballsless please-everybody GM. BFD.

Gee..., why assume brake dust is not fashion? What about "bed head" hairstyles, crummy saggy pants, guys with a two-day beard growth wearing tuxedos? But, WTF do I give a sht about fashion anyway? A quirky pet project of mine is liking the car to be less flashy and less prissy among the general public; brake dust helps.

Next subject... .

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Sep 20, 2007 1:35:30 PM

69bossnine: Rennteam Pro; Loc: FL, USA , United States; Posts: 2028, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 27, 2005; Reply to: MMD

Re: Corvette Etiquette - The Heck With It?

The shape of river rocks is arrived at less by fluid dynamics, and more by the tumbling effect of the rocks chaffing against one another and shifting... They don't sit in the same attitude and position for decades on end to achieve that shape.. That's my point, there's no decent analogy from those stones across to car design..

As for bed-head, saggy pants, two-day beards, all that stuff to me IS AS PRISSY AS YOU CAN GET, as it's blatant and conscious and deliberate fretting over being noticed, establishing an "image", and parading your fashion-statement around town, knowing damn-well you'll stand out like a sore thumb, and revelling in it..

"Hey, look at me, my clothes are wrinkled, my hair's a mess, I'm such a cool and aloof dude.. Hey, you, look at me..., I'm pretending that I don't care..."

Those types of people are just as culpable, if not more-so, of being SLAVES TO FASHION..

That's my whole point.. I keep my wheels clean because it looks good to me, that's my main focus, and that's how you should take care of a fine piece of equipment. Ask any farmer or machinist. I don't think they are prissy, but they damn sure place value on good habits and daily/weekly routine...

You let your wheels get filthy because you're concerned about making some public statement that you're aloof, cool, artsy, ABOVE scrubbing your wheels, because it's the driving that counts.. It seems very fashion-conscious to me, which is ironically far prissy-er than simply washing your entire car, including the wheels, during routine maintenance....

We always get at odds over this stuff, I realize that...

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Sep 20, 2007 5:12:20 PM

STRADALE: Rennteam VIP; Loc: NY , United States; Posts: 11075, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 9, 2005; Reply to: 69bossnine

Re: Corvette Etiquette - The Heck With It?

Some visuals perhaps?
I'm not a Corvette guy but have to admit the very first time I saw this car and took these pics at the 2005 New York Auto Show I thought about it.

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Sep 20, 2007 5:13:04 PM

STRADALE: Rennteam VIP; Loc: NY , United States; Posts: 11075, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 9, 2005; Reply to: STRADALE

Re: Corvette Etiquette - The Heck With It?

2

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Sep 20, 2007 5:14:22 PM

STRADALE: Rennteam VIP; Loc: NY , United States; Posts: 11075, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 9, 2005; Reply to: STRADALE

Re: Corvette Etiquette - The Heck With It?

3

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Sep 20, 2007 7:33:27 PM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: 69bossnine

Re: Corvette Etiquette - The Heck With It?

Quote:
69bossnine said:

We always get at odds over this stuff, I realize that...

Hey 69bn,

I have alot of respect for what you say AND alot of the time what you write is very well-expressed and entertaining.

Problem with us here is all this typing and emoticons; it's not easy trying to understand each other like this. It's impossible to get nuances, intonations, facial expressions, blah, blah, blah..., etc., etc., etc..

My bet is if we ever did meet up and had a few beers it would be fun and a worthwhile way to learn stuff. I'd probably learn a heck of alot more about cars from you than vice versa (that's a very safe bet). Anyway the different points of view on the more abstract/theorertical/quasi-BS side we might have, are probably easy to clarify and modify and come away with a new perspective.

"Life is for learning" even though that predicament is soooooo annoying sometimes!

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Sep 20, 2007 7:46:56 PM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: STRADALE

Re: Corvette Etiquette - The Heck With It?

Quote:
STRADALE said:
Some visuals perhaps?
I'm not a Corvette guy but have to admit the very first time I saw this car and took these pics at the 2005 New York Auto Show I thought about it.

Good pics! Thanks.

Don't want to start a debate here but just want to make a small point.

This Lambo is absolutely gorgeous

Let me say I do NOT like the "Origami" look at all.

BUT Lambo did a brilliant job with Origami design vocabulary.

IMO, it's the final word in the origami idiom.

How does it differ from corvette?

IMO there is not ONE BIT of hesitation in the dsign of the Lambo, there's not ONE BIT of anything that's not needed, the coherence of all the visual elements of the entire car is spectacular.

You can't say THAT about corvette; it is even hard to say about Porsche. Lambo's goal must have been ZERO compromises: to be pleasing first and foremost to the designers! Niiiiiice position to be in! Not very practical apparently for the company however.

This Lambo is my example of how every element is there "for a reason" and every element is "essential" for the whole. There is not one bit of extraneous crap intended for "crowd pleasing" or "mass appeal." IMO, that's why it's so special and so unusual to see in the auto industry too.

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Sep 20, 2007 8:43:23 PM

69bossnine: Rennteam Pro; Loc: FL, USA , United States; Posts: 2028, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 27, 2005; Reply to: MMD

Re: Corvette Etiquette - The Heck With It?

Don't mind me, I'm just sticking up for the blue-collar working man I suppose...

Much of the manner in which you attack the Corvette, has the appearance of attacking a demographic that has to work damn hard just to afford their family Malibu. The designers of the Corvette have a responsibility that goes beyond go-for-broke perfection... They have to create a product that does not abandon the bottom rung of GM customers, who stay loyal to GM in large part due to the aspiration to one day walk in and drive out in a Corvette... There's so much more social relevance going on with the Corvette, so much more history, so much more of a purpose within the car company that builds it.... Heck, Lambo is just building fast supercars for rich people, and that's it, period.... They don't even have racing as an excuse.

I'm with you, I much prefer the clean and organic shapes of my 911, thank you.. But I defend the Corvette, because it IS the people's performance car, and they don't need anyone sneering at them just because their car isn't the equivalent to an Armani suit..

We all know what we like, what our tastes are, and what we can afford... You may be right, the Corvette may be a people-pleasing compromise. But that's what the car is there for, and I think that in the world of mass-market stuff, be it music, fashion, entertainment, or cars, the Corvette is one of the BETTER and more WORTHY things that a large part of the public has an affinity for... Compared to tabloids, pop-music, and McDonalds...

In that respect, GM has my respect....

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Sep 20, 2007 9:23:40 PM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: 69bossnine

Re: Corvette Etiquette - The Heck With It?

Quote:
69bossnine said:

Much of the manner in which you attack the Corvette, has the appearance of attacking a demographic that has to work damn hard just to afford their family Malibu.

Yikes. That's awful! I'm very sorry to be part of that sort of misunderstanding. It's not me at all. Geez..., I see all kinds of people every day and I have nothing but the highest regard and compassion for the suffering and struggling that is a fact of life for many many people. Holy cow! Forgive me for letting that misconception take root. Wow.

As far as superficial stuff, like cars and lifestyle goes, I'm just trying to see some humor in it and at the same time not in anyway resemble a true ahole. If a guy has gold chains and hairy chest and is driving a Mercedes it'll still be funny; BUT I guarentee I'll be there 100% for that guy if he needs help, or be genuinely kind and pleasant to him if there's an encounter. I think most of us here are _mature_ respectable car guys and would operate this way.

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Sep 21, 2007 1:39:33 PM

69bossnine: Rennteam Pro; Loc: FL, USA , United States; Posts: 2028, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 27, 2005; Reply to: MMD

Re: Corvette Etiquette - The Heck With It?

Ten-four good buddy...

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Sep 25, 2007 5:35:30 PM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: 69bossnine

Re: Corvette Etiquette - The Heck With It?

Oh! Just found this.

FWIW.

C6 on top C5 on bottom.

I can see GM stylists racked their brains to make the C6 look "more aggressive" and bulkier to gain present-day fashion appeal. Interesting to see what went into updating it.

It's also funny (to my simple mind) to see wheel spokes in "same" positions.

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Sep 25, 2007 6:53:30 PM

Jim48: Senior; Loc: Virginia, USA; Posts: 639, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 24, 2005; Reply to: MMD

Re: Corvette Etiquette - The Heck With It?

C6 is shorter overall than the C5.

My brother took delivery of a new C6 last May (his wife calls it the "pumpkin" because it's an orange color).

I don't spend time arguing with my brother about the merits of his C6 versus my 997S, but he admitted he made his choice because it "gets noticed," among other reasons. He also thinks he's gotten more "bang" per buck of expenditure.

Even with the new (2008) C6 supposedly giving better road feel (improved steering), I didn't purchase my 997S to get noticed by others. I bought it for the sheer pleasure of driving it. And I suspect it still delivers a better drive than a C6.

Jim

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Sep 25, 2007 6:59:43 PM

SoCal Alan: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Orange County , United States; Posts: 7268, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 6, 2004; Reply to: Jim48

Re: Corvette Etiquette - The Heck With It?

C5 looks better than the C6, IMHO.

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Sep 25, 2007 8:29:38 PM

69bossnine: Rennteam Pro; Loc: FL, USA , United States; Posts: 2028, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 27, 2005; Reply to: SoCal Alan

Re: Corvette Etiquette - The Heck With It?

Optical illusion, the C6 is not bulkier at all... Front and rear overhangs trimmed, and C-pillar is narrower.

When you approach something so full of predisposed perception, objectivity suffers..

I prefer the crisper lines, yeah it's a bit more aggressive, but it's less goofy-globby..

No, it's not a work of art, never said it was... Is the Boxster a beauty?? No, it's homely as hell looking too... Depends on what you're looking for in a car I suppose..

Back when I bought my '93 Corvette new, I was also concerned about being batched-in with the gold-chain-rattling crowd. But I bought mine for what, was at that time, the most performance I could afford. The 911 at that time was slower, still "interesting" in it's rear-end control, and yackingly expensive compared to my budget at the time... The Corvette turned out to be a wonderful car, durable, and fast as snot with just a few easy mods...

What's this obsession with Corvettes anyhow?... If it's so "beneath" everyone, then why the hell does it continue to be brought up here??

It's like high shool girl cliques... "And, like, Nicole Tomlinson is like, a WHORE and all..., and like her butt is like HUGE, and did you see that OUTFIT she wore yesterday?? I'm sure she bought it at, like, Wal Mart or something, she's so scummy, and, you know, she's a whore..."

So you don't like the C6, we get it. The more you obsess on it, the more I think you've got a secret room in your house wallpapered with Super Chevy magazines and Corvette pictures with women bending over the hoods in high-heals, and a little altar with candles... Kinda freaky if you ask me!!!

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