Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: Toyota on the top again, now beating Porsche in their own tu - Page1

Jun 19, 2004 9:44:34 AM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21156, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003

Toyota on the top again, now beating Porsche in their own tu

Whats up with Toyota?... best marks in the JD Power surveys, biggest seller in the world now... and now they even beat Porsche in germany?

In the german survey AutoMarxX of the ADAC which takes into account client satisfaction, brand image, sales, technology, quality, etc. Toyota has jumped from 5th to 3rd this year in front of Porsche and Audi now (behind MB and BMW)! a first for a non-german automaker.

Here is the table of the survey:
table

SIDENOTE: some of the germans on the forum could explain from the table were does Porsche fall behind exactly this year? looks to me like its related to brand image?

full article

Last year's survey

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Jun 19, 2004 12:53:40 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59604, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: Toyota on the top again, now beating Porsche in their own tu

Well, 1st place for product quality.

I don't take such surveys too seriously because they never reflect the truth.
The worst surveys are btw those where people are asked in general what they think of brand XYZ.
I mean what do you expect: asking a Mazda driver about Porsche.

Or to end my post with a comment which a friend of my wife (she drives a VW Touran family car) made: she would FORBID Porsche cars completely because they don't make any sense, nobody needs them, the are massive polluters (because people drive them mostly for fun

), they are dangerous because of the speeds, bla bla bla.
You get the point. I wonder what she would answer in a survey about sex in the marriage (probably: not needed anymore, I "caught" my man, I already have children, just a waste of time and dangerous too because I could get pregnant again

Judging from my past experience with Porsche, starting with the 993 and judging from my current experience with my Cayenne Turbo, my former E55 AMG and talks with friends about cars, I think that Porsche quality is at a never reached before height. I just hope they'll keep it that way because Dr. Wiedeking's recent words made me worry a little bit ("we have to cut down on cost"). This is how it started with Mercedes...

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Jun 19, 2004 1:12:42 PM

ben, lj: Expert; Loc:; Posts: 1373, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 6, 2003; Reply to: RC

Re: Toyota on the top again, now beating Porsche in their own tu

"I think that Porsche quality is at a never reached before height."

it took a large hit post Boxster and has PLUMMETED post Cayenne. i bet porsche's quality ratings (in the U.S.) is at all time "lows"!

i think it says a lot about toyota to be at the top. as porsche has learned, each time it offers a lower priced vehicle, it's satisfaction ratings plummet. the lower priced the car, more often than not, the higher % of the buyers net worth that is going into that car. this stokes the "if i pay X amount for X, i expect X service", etc. in addition, those frugals that buy toyotas for their legendary reliability and build quality would bitch to high heaven if it didn't turn out to be the case. in truth, porsche has wet dreams about EVER being able to produce the quality of product toyota/lexus do. that said, porsche's product is excellent IMO and they even throw in a ton of emotional driving experiences with each car.

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Jun 19, 2004 2:05:05 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59604, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: ben, lj

Re: Toyota on the top again, now beating Porsche in their own tu

Quote:
ben, lj said:
it took a large hit post Boxster and has PLUMMETED post Cayenne. i bet porsche's quality ratings (in the U.S.) is at all time "lows"!

A large hit POST Boxster? The first Boxsters and the first 996 were in my eyes the worst Porsche models every regarding quality.

Since the 996 Turbo introduction and the 996 facelift/Boxster "facelift", quality has improved every year.
The Cayenne had a pretty low rating because of the recalls but these recalls really don't say anything about quality.
Right now I still believe that Porsche is at the highest overall quality level they ever had but of course people love to trust more the media and surveys.

The ADAC survey actually confirms this, the best product quality rating of all brands but I wonder if this rating is based on owner surveys or not.

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Jun 19, 2004 2:26:47 PM

ben, lj: Expert; Loc:; Posts: 1373, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 6, 2003; Reply to: RC

Re: Toyota on the top again, now beating Porsche in their own tu

"The Cayenne had a pretty low rating because of the recalls but these recalls really don't say anything about quality."

it's more than that. i've got an early build 04 and there are definetely some things they could have done better (ie: the whistling drivers window - service claims is the mirror, it's not though - lunging/hesitation, condensation build up in the front lights, leaking wiper in the rear, etc).

"Right now I still believe that Porsche is at the highest overall quality level they ever had but of course people love to trust more the media and surveys."

with all due respect, that's absurd. how better a way to find out than to actually ask non-biased owners (and media) with direct experience? don't get me wrong, i love p-cars (my favorite auto manufacturer) and soon 3 out of our 4 cars will be p-cars, but let's be honest. toyota/lexus has always kicked porsche's arse in quality.

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Jun 19, 2004 3:19:28 PM

lev: Pilot; Loc: Canada, Toronto; Posts: 397, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 15, 2004; Reply to: ben, lj

Re: Toyota on the top again, now beating Porsche in their own tu

"toyota/lexus has always kicked porsche's arse in quality."

This is not fair comaprison. Do you compare quality of military submarine and cruise ship?

The challenge Porsche cars are providing and solving as well (the edge of the car or what it can do) are million miles ahead of toyota and lexus.

I agree wiith RC, Porsche quality is unmatched considering to what Porsche cars are capable of doing.

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Jun 19, 2004 3:32:01 PM

ben, lj: Expert; Loc:; Posts: 1373, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 6, 2003; Reply to: lev

Re: Toyota on the top again, now beating Porsche in their own tu

"Porsche quality is unmatched considering to what Porsche cars are capable of doing."

you mean like going 1/3 as far per gallon of gas? point being, they both do remarkable things they other doesn't. bottom line, build quality and reliability has always been better on the toyota/lexus while porsche is still very well built imo.

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Jun 19, 2004 4:31:33 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59604, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: ben, lj

Re: Toyota on the top again, now beating Porsche in their own tu

Quote:
ben, lj said:
toyota/lexus has always kicked porsche's arse in quality

First at all, I'm not biased. I own different brands of cars too, including BMW and Mercedes.
I just followed the whole 996 generation from the start very carefully and this is why I honestly believe that they reached a very high quality level.
My Cayenne Turbo has no quality issues but of course it isn't perfect, the micro switch of the rear hatch windows failed (seems to be a well known supplier problem) and the throttle/shifting delay might not be an issue to many Cayenne owners but I'm used to something different from our ML55.
Regarding Lexus and Toyota I agree...and NOT.
Lexus doesn't sell many cars here in Germany because people still know it is "just" a Toyota. And people who buy a Mercedes S-class or BMW 7-series would never consider buying a Toyota. This might have something to do with arrogancy or pride or whatever but this is how it is.
In Europe, the Lexus brand is pretty "dead".
And now let me ask you something else: are Toyota buyers the same who would buy a Porsche? Or would Porsche drivers buy a Toyota? Do Toyota drivers drive their cars the same way Porsche drivers do? Do Porsche drivers have the same quality expectations as Toyota drivers have?

I leave it to the experts to answer this question.

And to make my last point: I never said that Porsche has a better quality than manufacturer XYZ. I just said that I think that Porsche reached the highest quality level in their production history, especially if you're taking in consideration that they sell much more cars now than they did 10 years ago.

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Jun 19, 2004 7:21:56 PM

ben, lj: Expert; Loc:; Posts: 1373, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 6, 2003; Reply to: RC

Re: Toyota on the top again, now beating Porsche in their own tu

"are Toyota buyers the same who would buy a Porsche? Or would Porsche drivers buy a Toyota? Do Toyota drivers drive their cars the same way Porsche drivers do?"

of course not :-)

"Do Porsche drivers have the same quality expectations as Toyota drivers have?"

of course not again - or porsche would NEVER sell a single car.

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Jun 19, 2004 10:14:25 PM

fritz: Rennteam VIP; Loc: BaWü , Germany; Posts: 10248, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 23, 2003; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: Toyota on the top again, now beating Porsche in their own tu

Quote:
carlos fromspain said:
SIDENOTE: some of the germans on the forum could explain from the table were does Porsche fall behind exactly this year? looks to me like its related to brand image?

Most of the posters on this topic seem to have got hung up with the subject of Toyota / Porsche product quality.

Coincidentally there have been movements for both brands under the rather foggy heading "Market strength", for Toyota upwards, and Porsche downwards.
ADAC puts Toyota's improvement in this respect down to the fact that that company has spent more on advertising last year than in previous years. Oh, is that all it takes.

ADAC didn't comment on Porsche's lower rating for "market strength". My guess would be, if I correctly interpret what they are assessing under that title, that the interest in Porsche's current products in the market in the last year has been reduced because the market knew there were new products in the pipeline.

To come back to quality: There are many aspects of car quality. One of them is reliability in use. According to ADAC, Toyota comes second to Mazda in the breakdown statistics.
Yet Mazda is rated only tenth overall in these statistics, so go figure!

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Jun 19, 2004 11:34:58 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21156, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: fritz

Re: Toyota on the top again, now beating Porsche in their own tu

thanks fritz

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Toyota on the top again, now beating Porsche in their own tu

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