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    -20mm Suspension. What a waste of money!?

    Why on earth would I want -20mm suspension?

    Having read everything I can find about it, I just cannot understand why someone would choose it over the PASM
    fitted as standard to the S.

    The only real advantage I can see is the aesthetics of a 10mm drop in ride height. But will you even notice that?

    Looking at the ring times, a professional driver can gain 4 seconds on an 8 minute lap. Only 4 seconds! Thats less than 1% faster. Mr Rohrl could have gained that 1% back by skipping his lunch before the drive!

    Does this not tell you how good PASM is?

    And all those things that you loose...

    Like the ability to have a more comfortable driving mode (admittedly for a weekend car this may not appeal!)

    Hey, I live in England! Our roads are good but not the best. Sometimes I need tolerant suspension.

    And the added safety of active suspension.

    Actually, according to the brochure, PASM can actually increase grip and traction on certain road surfaces simply
    by softening up the suspension. Apparently, PASM also helps increase traction when accelerating quickly on uneven roads.

    The way it handles sudden lane changes, to avoid 'rock' by increasing damping force according to its programming.

    Then there is the way it shifts damping forces during braking, and the way it handles vertical body movements ,
    etc.. etc..

    Its not just a hard/soft switch!!

    So why give all this up for that 1%? And who's to say that an amateur (like me!) wouldn't lap quicker in the PASM
    equipped car, due to the fact the active suspension makes it easier for me. Hell, If walter only benefits by 4
    seconds on a 480 second lap, what chance do the rest of us stand.

    The way I see it, Porsche gain far more by you specifying -20mm than you do. Think of the money they save when you
    elect not to have PASM. It seems to me to be obvious that they have priced PASM and -20mm the same so as not to upset
    'S' drivers who wish to downgrade.

    Oh and I almost forgot! My dealer also warned me that he won't give me as much at trade in for a none-PASM equipped car as the average driver doesn't want 'sports' suspension.

    Comments?

    ...Add

    P.S. For the record, although my 997S is on order, I curreently drive 2 cars, both which I have lowered and hardened. I am not on an anti hard suspension protest!!

    Re: -20mm Suspension. What a waste of money!?

    Think you are talking bollocks personally. When you have driven both come back to me and give me your real opinion.

    PASM equipped cars are too soft in comfort mode for fun and far too hard in sports mode to actually be of any benefit.

    I have driven both hence I will stick with my -20mm suspension and enjoy a far more responsive car wherever I drive.

    Re: -20mm Suspension. What a waste of money!?

    Also the PASM equipped car understeers more but if you want that in a sports car, enjoy !

    Re: -20mm Suspension. What a waste of money!?

    Quote:
    madadd said:The only real advantage I can see is the aesthetics of a 10mm drop in ride height.



    One could argue that the above comment explains why you cannot see why someone would prefer it.

    OK, let me ask you this, if they gave you two 997S to test in a exiting winding mountain road, one with PASM the other with -20mm, but you don't know which car has which... now, would you be able to tell the difference between the two cars? that what you felt different is why some would prefer the -20mm on a 911 sportcar.

    Re: -20mm Suspension. What a waste of money!?

    Quote:
    madadd said:

    Comments?

    ...Add





    LSD?

    I agree with your points if this is going to be your only car but isn't driving a sports car about having fun at every corner?

    Re: -20mm Suspension. What a waste of money!?

    I forgot about the LSD. A good point as without that my tail slides would look stupid

    Re: -20mm Suspension. What a waste of money!?

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    Quote:
    madadd said:The only real advantage I can see is the aesthetics of a 10mm drop in ride height.



    One could argue that the above comment explains why you cannot see why someone would prefer it.

    OK, let me ask you this, if they gave you two 997S to test in a exiting winding mountain road, one with PASM the other with -20mm, but you don't know which car has which... now, would you be able to tell the difference between the two cars? that what you felt different is why some would prefer the -20mm on a 911 sportcar.



    Carlos,

    I thought you'd reply first, havng argued PASM with you before!

    Yes, based on what I have read, I believe I would be able to feel the difference. But (Thus the reason for this post) I wonder whether that 'feel'is a worthwhile swap for the superb features that PASM provides.

    I am inclined to believe, that maybe the difference does come down to how it feels (And how well it draws black circles on the asphalt) and little else.

    As for the other comment on LSD's. The guys at Porsche obviously feel that their in car computer is a suitable replacement for LSD (Though obviously not for the purist). I guess we could have a complete seperate debate on the advantage of an LSD versus the electronic ways of controlling slip. Again maybe much of this comes down to feel!?

    Cheers,

    ...Add

    Re: -20mm Suspension. What a waste of money!?

    And let's not forget, come replacement time for the shocks, how much is it going to cost you to replace the PASM units vs. the more traditional -20mm setup? I replaced my 996's shocks/springs to the ROW 030 around 50K miles and definitely found what I was missing as shocks gradually go soft over the miles. I probably paid too much for the labor & alignment but all-in it was a great $2K upgrade.

    You must be a Rover driver!

    Absolutely clueless. You're all mouth and no trousers. I see an Astramax in your future. If you want to troll go do it somewhere else.

    Re: -20mm Suspension. What a waste of money!?

    Quote:
    Jean said:
    Quote:
    madadd said:

    Comments?

    ...Add





    LSD?

    I agree with your points if this is going to be your only car but isn't driving a sports car about having fun at every corner?



    Ermm. No!

    Let me explain my view. I looked at various other cars before i ordered my 997. I looked at TVR's, Nobles, etc.. but realised that out and out driving fast isnt everything. I also want some quality. And a bit of comfort to go wth it. And something that won't let me down. This immediately removed most of the similarly priced high performance cars from my list.

    To me, the 911 is a compromise. But one that fits the bill perfectly. Others are faster, others handle better, others are better priced. But nothing seems to cover all bases quite so well, in the way the 911 does - Reason I ordered one.

    So yes, I want to have fun on the corners, but I also spend a lot of time on long boring straight roads. Or in traffic. And in these conditions I will not be having fun, so may as well be grumpy in comfort. (Almost forgot. Yes. this will be an every day car for me)

    ...Add

    Re: You must be a Rover driver!

    Quote:
    Le Chef said:
    Absolutely clueless. You're all mouth and no trousers. I see an Astramax in your future. If you want to troll go do it somewhere else.



    Le Chef,

    Touchy! Rather than attempting some dim witted snipe at my post. Why not educate me?

    Most of my original post was gained from brochures and posts here on Rennteam (like the lap times). Some parts mere questions! I even put a question mark in the title to stop folks getting over excited.!

    I am not saing -20mm is bad! I am saying Why?

    Chill!!

    ...Add

    Re: You must be a Rover driver!

    Living in the US, I wish that we had your dilemma...
    but as it stands the only choice we get is PASM..

    Re: -20mm Suspension. What a waste of money!?

    You raise several valid points re: 997S PASM vs -20mm vs GT3 vs (insert favorite other competing sportscar) for most real-world weekend warrior amateur drivers on bumpy mountain twisties....I doubt many amateurs would have materially different times on a bumpy, real-world set of twisties in any of these outstanding cars....but the reasons most guys get these cars are fundamentally emotional....for fun, visceral driving experiences...thus, many F loyalists have always argued the times are irrelevant (esp since most (often cheaper) P's beat comparable F's around N-ring; some P guys will say F guys can't drive; F's don't run....blah blah); smart answer is get the toy(s) (potentially both P and F) that provide one the most pleasure.....Walter's N-ring times are just fun benchmarks w/which to compare these phenomenal cars.....

    Re: -20mm Suspension. What a waste of money!?

    I have never raced before, let alone driven on the N'ring, but 4 seconds is a good amount of time to gain on a lap isn't it?

    Re: -20mm Suspension. What a waste of money!?

    Not when the lap takes 480 seconds to complete

    I think you miss the point.

    Quote:
    madadd said:
    Quote:
    Le Chef said:
    Absolutely clueless. You're all mouth and no trousers. I see an Astramax in your future. If you want to troll go do it somewhere else.



    Most of my original post was gained from brochures and posts here on Rennteam (like the lap times). Some parts mere questions! I even put a question mark in the title to stop folks getting over excited.!

    I am not saing -20mm is bad! I am saying Why?




    May I suggest you actually try a 997S with sport chassis?
    See I may be in your situation but vice versa, I've tried it but not the one with PASM.
    I can't imagine my 997 softer than the with sport chassis frankly.
    You assume things, like most ignorant, granted.
    Try and then criticise.
    You say that you want your car to be a compromise, sure, that's what the 997 is! An all rounder, but you seem to be definitely more orientated towards GT comfort than sporty suspensions setup and that's fine, nothing wrong with that.
    I'm exactly like you, I want it all (bose, sunroff, etc.) but performance and sporty driving takes it over GT features.
    Take a driving course and compare how two cars drive, one with rear LSD and one without.
    Then you can argue with valid points.
    It's not about the seconds gained, it's about FEEL! FEEDBACK!
    As a Brit, I would hope you understand, this is one of the most amazing nations I've come across when it comes to car enthousiasts!
    And finally, the title of your post is a bit ridiculous (no offense!) because the sport chassis with LSD is actually free on cars initially equipped with PASM.

    At the end of the day, you TOTALLY miss the point.
    Porsche offers both solution, so why wine?
    If you don't like the idea fine, but understand that they are more sporty driverts out there who want the added feel, control, precision that a sporties chassis offers.
    PASM is amazing, but it's a compromise, personally not a hige fan of electronically managed suspensions of which my only experiences are the S and SL and Maserati and Ferrari.
    I'll try the 997S and then make my final judgement, just like you whould!

    Re: I think you miss the point.

    Madadd,
    Apologies, it would appear that the sport chassis is actually not a free option in the UK.
    It would seem it's the only country that charges for the sport chassis! Disgrace!
    Now I AM the one talking without checking!
    Truth is, even if it's a chargeable option, I'd still go for it.
    Think of the 997S with sport suspension as the car that bridges the gap between the 997S and the futur 997GT3, especially with powerkit 381hp.

    Re: I think you miss the point.

    Everybody talks about the stiffer suspension of the -20mm chassis option.
    But that's not the very point, according to me.
    The most interesting point of this option is the LSD.
    There is a huge difference with PASM when driving to the limit of grip.
    Ask english speaking specialists (RC, Carlos, Fanch, etc...) to explain.

    Re: I think you miss the point.

    Quote:
    Fanch said:
    Madadd,
    Apologies, it would appear that the sport chassis is actually not a free option in the UK.
    It would seem it's the only country that charges for the sport chassis! Disgrace!
    Now I AM the one talking without checking!
    Truth is, even if it's a chargeable option, I'd still go for it.
    Think of the 997S with sport suspension as the car that bridges the gap between the 997S and the futur 997GT3, especially with powerkit 381hp.



    Hi folks!

    It's an interesting discusion/thread. How about a little poll?

    I'm a kind of a "beginner" and in the first quarter of 2006 I'm going to order my first 911 (997) and think of getting the Carrera S (or one of the two 4WD-versions). I only have had a ride on a Carrera S with PASM and in my opion it felt real good to me, but I haven't tryed a 997 S with the sport chassis. I'm going to use my Porsche nearly everyday and will do long trips (400 km) with it... my question is:
    Wouldn't it be too hard, when I drive everyday? Therefore the 'confortable' setup of the 'normal'-modus of PASM is a real good solution... isn't it? I like it very much if the car is lowered (but not 60 mm or more.. that's too much). I hope you all can help me and madadd finding an answere. Thx!

    The little lowered setup, which you can see on this car, looks really good! Have a look to the pic and maybe you like it too?!

    Re: I think you miss the point.

    Pheonix,
    I praise the point of your post but I'm afraid it's not gonna help much.
    At the end of the day, we're talking about two cars that will have distinct driving characteristics and behaviour.
    If you can't get your hand on a 997S sport chassis, try to test drive a 996 C2 equipped with X74 (-30mm suspensions + LSD) although I suspect the latter to be stiffest, it'll still give you an idea.
    To me, -20mm susp. is similar to my 996 with M030 (-10mm susp.) but frankly, it's all subjective.
    The following view sounds a bit extreme, but because of the way the chassis setup differs, I'm tempted to say that chosing between PASM and Sport chassis is the same kind of dilemma as chosing between 2WD and 4WD (due to the LSD, not suspension setup).
    End of day, many possibilities for many driving styles, Thank you Porsche!
    Try a P17 (code name of sport susp.) 997S and let us know what you think.
    My personal experience is that, on a daily basis, granted, it's a bit on the stiffy side, but you might like it, who know!

    Re: I think you miss the point.

    Where are the pics Phoenix ?

    I am in the same situation as you. I should get my first 911 by the end of the year or the beginning of next.
    I have tried PASM, liked the 'secure ' feeling, but not 100% convinced with the 2 setups ( one too soft , the other too hard on normal roads...eventaugh I can live with the sport setup easely). I do like the possiblility the change to soft 'in case of....dont' know what yet, but just in case....
    Like the lowered look a lot ( I would anyway have the PASM lowered if possible) and now am a bit confused after reading all these posts saying the -20 mm is confortable enough and has a great feel . I hope I can try one soon.
    Resale value might be lower with -20mm...
    I need help to choose too !!!

    Re: I think you miss the point.

    Quote:
    gnil said:
    Where are the pics Phoenix ?

    I am in the same situation as you. I should get my first 911 by the end of the year or the beginning of next.
    I have tried PASM, liked the 'secure ' feeling, but not 100% convinced with the 2 setups ( one too soft , the other too hard on normal roads...eventaugh I can live with the sport setup easely). I do like the possiblility the change to soft 'in case of....dont' know what yet, but just in case....
    Like the lowered look a lot ( I would anyway have the PASM lowered if possible) and now am a bit confused after reading all these posts saying the -20 mm is confortable enough and has a great feel . I hope I can try one soon.
    Resale value might be lower with -20mm...
    I need help to choose too !!!



    Sorry, the post was toooooo big for me and I forgot it.... I edited it!

    Thanks for the hind, gnil! I'm getting older!

    To try to solve our problem, what do you think of a "meeting of newbies", gnil? I'll be on the IAA in Frankfurt this year to see how the 4WD models look real.

    Re: I think you miss the point.

    -20mm in the UK is a no-cost option ie: no additional charge over PASM. I can verify this as I have ordered it in the UK.

    Re: I think you miss the point.

    Quote:
    Fanch said:
    Pheonix,
    I praise the point of your post but I'm afraid it's not gonna help much.
    At the end of the day, we're talking about two cars that will have distinct driving characteristics and behaviour.
    If you can't get your hand on a 997S sport chassis, try to test drive a 996 C2 equipped with X74 (-30mm suspensions + LSD) although I suspect the latter to be stiffest, it'll still give you an idea.
    To me, -20mm susp. is similar to my 996 with M030 (-10mm susp.) but frankly, it's all subjective.
    The following view sounds a bit extreme, but because of the way the chassis setup differs, I'm tempted to say that chosing between PASM and Sport chassis is the same kind of dilemma as chosing between 2WD and 4WD (due to the LSD, not suspension setup).
    End of day, many possibilities for many driving styles, Thank you Porsche!
    Try a P17 (code name of sport susp.) 997S and let us know what you think.
    My personal experience is that, on a daily basis, granted, it's a bit on the stiffy side, but you might like it, who know!



    Thanks for your praise and for your reply. Maybe it helps me and others to choose. I'm tending to the PASM, because it gives me a more saver feeling, it will be my first 911 and it should not be the last one (because of a deadly accident) .

    Does someone know if it is possible to lower the Carrera with PASM???

    Nevertheless, I'll do my very best to get a testdrive on 997 with P17 (sport susp.) .

    Re: I think you miss the point.

    I think we need to consider here why Porsche developed PASM, I think it was a marketing policy ie; the 911 has traditionally been a firm ride and I believe they felt they were loosing customers who prefered a softer GT style ride.(Merc & BMW) The point I making is that PASM has not been developed as superior suspension system (over -20mm) but one which widens the 911 customer base!!!

    Re: I think you miss the point.

    Quote:
    ACA said:
    I think we need to consider here why Porsche developed PASM, I think it was a marketing policy ie; the 911 has traditionally been a firm ride and I believe they felt they were loosing customers who prefered a softer GT style ride.(Merc & BMW) The point I making is that PASM has not been developed as superior suspension system (over -20mm) but one which widens the 911 customer base!!!



    Interesting theory.
    Think of the 911S PASM as a Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde kinda car.
    Still a compromise for sporty drivers as IMHO electronically governed suspensions do not have the feedback and precision of conventionnal ones but still an elegant solution nonetheless.
    I am eager to test drive one as from what I've read, it is superior to Merc's ABC and Ferrari/Maserati's Skyhook.
    PS: Interesting, one of the best GT out there right now is the DB9 and it's only critic (at least in the british press) is the harsh ride for some, and you know what, it rides on conventionnal suspensions.
    PPS: I went on the Porsche Car Configurator UK and the P17 option is charged approx. Pounds1,100 for a 997S Then again, on the french one, it doesn't appear at all whereas I know it's available, I've ordered it

    Re: I think you miss the point.

    Fanch, you are right, the -20mm is shown on the UK porsche car configurator as an cost option at Pounds1,030. I guess they must have changed this since i finalised my order back in March. I can't quite understand this as the Precision 911 brochure clearly states its a non-cost option. Maybe this is a price change for MY2006 cars???? I did think at the time the -20mm was quite a good deal as a non-cost option!!

    Re: I think you miss the point.

    Quote ..

    At the end of the day, you TOTALLY miss the point.
    Porsche offers both solution, so why wine?
    If you don't like the idea fine, but understand that they are more sporty driverts out there who want the added feel, control, precision that a sporties chassis offers.
    PASM is amazing, but it's a compromise, personally not a hige fan of electronically managed suspensions of which my only experiences are the S and SL and Maserati and Ferrari.
    I'll try the 997S and then make my final judgement, just like you whould!

    .....

    Fanch,

    Not a wine (isnt that a drink! ) ! A post, intended to create an interesting debate which may answer some questions!

    I think that maybe others miss the point. Or maybe our points are different! (Not as much missing the point as those guys who buy PCCB purely to save weight, then add weight through adaptive seats, BOSE and Wood)

    As it stands, I am not expressing my opinion here. As I obviously do not know. But based on the theory alone, PASM prevents a very very strong case (Even for the performance drivers).

    And when you mention, the feel, control and precision. Ignoring feel, how much extra control and precision do you really get? Potentialy PASM gives more control in certain conditions.

    From the posts so far, there seems to be some agreement that some of my fundamental points may be right. Thus the -20mm is not necessarily a performance enhancement. More of an option to improve the feel of the car.

    As for price, yes, -20mm is definitely no cost on an S. I have my price list here.

    One thing I do believe is that the -20 would have to feel pretty special for me to want to dump PASM and loose the additional bebefits that it provides.

    But even if it feels great. Is it worth loosing all the benefits of PASM. Just for some extra feel?

    Guess I'll have to see who has a demo car!

    ...Add

    Re: I think you miss the point.

    ACA In my UK price list there is an extra line for the S stating 'no additional charge'.

    ..Add

    Re: I think you miss the point.

    Excellent conclusion Add,
    And that's what all people should do before criticising, they should try both cars and then post their opinions (sorry for our US members! )
    About PCCB, 14 kgs saved is an added bonus, but not amazing, I agree, and you are right, I have ordered sunroof, adapt. seats, etc. but it's always nice to shed kilos when you can, but the main point is, well, obviously, better braking feel and endurance but also NON SUSPENDED weight loss, which not only neutalises and henhances the handling of the car but also adds suspension comfort which is why IMO that option greatly compliments the sport chassis.

    The arguments that some of your so called fundamental points are right are ALL posted by people who have NOT driven the sport chassis car, get my point?

    Again, I cannot answer your comparaison questions bc I have not driven a PASM 997S yet.

    To all who state unfounded comparaison based on articles, stop the chit chat and go drive!!!

    To each his own.

    Add, one last thing, have you test driven a Maserati Gransport?
    Judging by what you've written, it's a car that would suit your driving style much more than the 997.

     
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