Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: Which is better for passing? non-S or S? - Page1

Apr 15, 2005 5:09:59 PM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004

Which is better for passing? non-S or S?

The only *practical* reason I ordered the S would be because I assumed it passes faster on rural highways around here. You know, I just can't stand someone on front of me going 50, 55,49,47, 58, 60, 53mph; I just have to get in front of them. You figure more acceleration. more torque, more HP, gets you in front faster/safer. I assume faster is safer when using the opposite lane! Once I get there, I typically just abide by the approximate speedlimit but with nobody in front of me.

Do you think the differences are THAT great between the S and non-S in low-speed, high acceleration situations like this?

Oh, the list of "emotional" reasons for getting the S vs.non-S is very long. Probably the same with most guys here. That's a whole 'nother can of worms, that is.

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Apr 15, 2005 5:19:46 PM

69bossnine: Rennteam Pro; Loc: FL, USA , United States; Posts: 2028, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 27, 2005; Reply to: MMD

Re: Which is better for passing? non-S or S?

Yes the S will pass "faster", but the difference isn't huge, probably 1 tenth of a second for a 50-80 mph pass, which equates to about one car length of gained space (that's my best educated guess, based on horsepower difference, and 0-60 and 1/4 mile stats for both cars). There are those here who will say that the difference is too small to care, and others (like me) who will say that they'll take every last pony they can get their hands on...

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Apr 15, 2005 5:24:30 PM

Dilinger: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Athens,Greece , Greece; Posts: 2034, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 23, 2004; Reply to: MMD

Re: Which is better for passing? non-S or S?

Quote:
MMD said:
The only *practical* reason I ordered the S would be because I assumed it passes faster on rural highways around here.

Oh, the list of "emotional" reasons for getting the S vs.non-S is very long. Probably the same with most guys here. That's a whole 'nother can of worms, that is.

MMD the above 2 statements of your are quite contradictionary dont you think?

In one side you said you ordered it for extra acceleration.
In the other that there are also emotional issues.

I can tell you that if you are going for the S for the first reain(accel, passing other cars) its a waste of money. The more acceleration that the S will give you at passing cars is so smalll...... The base model can pass other cars like they are stopped,so the S wont give you an advantage in this sector.

For the second reason you posted i understand you feelings.

For me the S is a better buy for 1000 times mentioned reasons.

But dont buy it just for passing cars quicker than the base model. The difference is so small you wont feel it.

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Apr 15, 2005 5:54:03 PM

SrfCity: Expert; Loc: Orange County, CA; Posts: 1339, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 21, 2004; Reply to: Dilinger

Re: Which is better for passing? non-S or S?

I'm curious if the difference between the "S" and "non-S" is the same as when you have the sport chrono off? If it is then there's a big difference. Somehow I doubt it's that great.

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Apr 15, 2005 6:40:54 PM

Holminator: Veteran; Loc: USA , United States; Posts: 1041, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 28, 2004; Reply to: SrfCity

Re: Which is better for passing? non-S or S?

Quote:
SrfCity said:
I'm curious if the difference between the "S" and "non-S" is the same as when you have the sport chrono off? If it is then there's a big difference. Somehow I doubt it's that great.

I've driven both, and that's not the difference at all. The real difference is in the options. The S has a lot of super options included as standard and a tiny more horsepower than needed to compensate for the added weight of the options IMHO.

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Apr 15, 2005 6:49:19 PM

PS CA: Veteran; Loc: California , United States; Posts: 833, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 13, 2003; Reply to: Holminator

Re: Which is better for passing? non-S or S?

Quote:
Holminator said:

I've driven both, and that's not the difference at all. The real difference is in the options. The S has a lot of super options included as standard and a tiny more horsepower than needed to compensate for the added weight of the options IMHO.

Not to get picky, but there is only a 56 pound difference between the S and non-S. I would guess that the bulk of the difference is the 19" wheel/tire combo. Since most of the non-S buyers equip their cars with the 19" wheels/tires, I doubt there is any significant weight difference between the cars actually being bought.

I thought this issue was already beaten to death. A standard S weighs 2% more than standard non-S and has 10% more horsepower. Enough said.........

Phil

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Apr 15, 2005 6:52:06 PM

Holminator: Veteran; Loc: USA , United States; Posts: 1041, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 28, 2004; Reply to: PS CA

Re: Which is better for passing? non-S or S?

Yeah, that's right. I agree.

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Apr 15, 2005 7:20:30 PM

Texas911: Senior; Loc: Houston, Texas - USA; Posts: 766, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2003; Reply to: Holminator

Re: Which is better for passing? non-S or S?

MMD you ordered an S? That must mean you're a poser.

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Apr 15, 2005 7:51:00 PM

Holminator: Veteran; Loc: USA , United States; Posts: 1041, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 28, 2004; Reply to: Texas911

Re: Which is better for passing? non-S or S?

Quote:
Texas911 said:
MMD you ordered an S? That must mean you're a poser.

Okay. That's wrong.

Somebody needs a nap.

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Apr 15, 2005 8:21:08 PM

KenH: Co-Pilot; Loc: Leesburg VA; Posts: 249, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 23, 2004; Reply to: Holminator

Re: Which is better for passing? non-S or S?

The turbo is better.
And the GT3 will be better still.
And the Carrera GT best of all.
But what does it matter?

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Apr 15, 2005 8:31:10 PM

DavidSF: Senior; Loc:; Posts: 525, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 7, 2003; Reply to: PS CA

Re: Which is better for passing? non-S or S?

Quote:
PS CA said:
Quote:
Holminator said:

I've driven both, and that's not the difference at all. The real difference is in the options. The S has a lot of super options included as standard and a tiny more horsepower than needed to compensate for the added weight of the options IMHO.

Not to get picky, but there is only a 56 pound difference between the S and non-S. I would guess that the bulk of the difference is the 19" wheel/tire combo. Since most of the non-S buyers equip their cars with the 19" wheels/tires, I doubt there is any significant weight difference between the cars actually being bought.

I thought this issue was already beaten to death. A standard S weighs 2% more than standard non-S and has 10% more horsepower. Enough said.........

Phil

This doesn't prove anything in terms of performance because weight reduction improves performance in all areas including handling, 0 - 60, top speed, etc... The only thing more HP gives you is faster 0 - 60 and top speed. It doesn't improve handling, and may make it worse in some cases due to added weight. Comparing percentage of weight increase/decrease vs. hp increase/discrease percentage linearly is comparing apples and oranges when talking about performance gains. It is not a linear function in determining which is better for performance.

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Apr 15, 2005 8:33:14 PM

DavidSF: Senior; Loc:; Posts: 525, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 7, 2003; Reply to: MMD

Re: Which is better for passing? non-S or S?

Quote:
MMD said:
The only *practical* reason I ordered the S would be because I assumed it passes faster on rural highways around here. You know, I just can't stand someone on front of me going 50, 55,49,47, 58, 60, 53mph; I just have to get in front of them. You figure more acceleration. more torque, more HP, gets you in front faster/safer. I assume faster is safer when using the opposite lane! Once I get there, I typically just abide by the approximate speedlimit but with nobody in front of me.

Do you think the differences are THAT great between the S and non-S in low-speed, high acceleration situations like this?

Oh, the list of "emotional" reasons for getting the S vs.non-S is very long. Probably the same with most guys here. That's a whole 'nother can of worms, that is.

Man now we're really splitting hairs.

Did you know the 997S, or even regular 997, is better for passing than 99% of ANY car on the road today?

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Apr 15, 2005 8:51:23 PM

69bossnine: Rennteam Pro; Loc: FL, USA , United States; Posts: 2028, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 27, 2005; Reply to: DavidSF

Re: Which is better for passing? non-S or S?

Ughhhhhhh...... You're killing us David, haven't we beaten this to death?? This thread is clearly inquiring about passing power, which has little to do with handling... And when talking about accelleration and top-speed, even the FACTORY publishes data showing that the "S" is faster on all fronts, so your insinuation that the standard might be faster and better handling has zero basis in reality. The difference is not mammoth by any means, but we've all relatively agreed, that the gain in performance in the "S" is more or less worth the money it costs, if you're so inclined. But there IS a performance increase, ALL AROUND, any mythical weight differences be damned. Carlos already did the research, and confirmed that there is no difference in weight between the 3.6 and the 3.8 engines (which was a no-brainer to begin with if you understand how they achieved the 3.8), and the only reason the S is 56 pounds heavier is the wheels, brakes and PASM, all of which improve handling and braking limits. 56 pounds to a 3,300-3,400 pound car is like feeding a tic tac to a whale.

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Apr 15, 2005 9:22:39 PM

Leong: Co-Pilot; Loc: Auckland, NZ; Posts: 284, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 24, 2004; Reply to: DavidSF

Re: Which is better for passing? non-S or S?

Quote:
DavidSF said:
Man now we're really splitting hairs. Did you know the 997S, or even regular 997, is better for passing than 99% of ANY car on the road today?

Agreed!! AND more so if you change down

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Apr 15, 2005 11:35:39 PM

DavidSF: Senior; Loc:; Posts: 525, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 7, 2003; Reply to: 69bossnine

Re: Which is better for passing? non-S or S?

Quote:
69bossnine said:
Ughhhhhhh...... You're killing us David, haven't we beaten this to death?? This thread is clearly inquiring about passing power, which has little to do with handling... And when talking about accelleration and top-speed, even the FACTORY publishes data showing that the "S" is faster on all fronts, so your insinuation that the standard might be faster and better handling has zero basis in reality. The difference is not mammoth by any means, but we've all relatively agreed, that the gain in performance in the "S" is more or less worth the money it costs, if you're so inclined. But there IS a performance increase, ALL AROUND, any mythical weight differences be damned. Carlos already did the research, and confirmed that there is no difference in weight between the 3.6 and the 3.8 engines (which was a no-brainer to begin with if you understand how they achieved the 3.8), and the only reason the S is 56 pounds heavier is the wheels, brakes and PASM, all of which improve handling and braking limits. 56 pounds to a 3,300-3,400 pound car is like feeding a tic tac to a whale.

Hey wait one second sir, I didn't bring it up. BLAME Phil! You should be mad at Phil!

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Apr 16, 2005 1:08:07 AM

PS CA: Veteran; Loc: California , United States; Posts: 833, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 13, 2003; Reply to: DavidSF

Re: Which is better for passing? non-S or S?

Quote:
DavidSF said:

Hey wait one second sir, I didn't bring it up. BLAME Phil! You should be mad at Phil!

What are you talking about? You are the one that continually says that the 56 pound difference makes the non-S a better handling car. I am among those that think the 56 pound difference is insignificant. The benefits clearly outweigh the slight weight difference. I feel the weight issue is a non-issue.

I believe you mentioned that your ideal 997 would be a non-S 997 without PASM, with PCCB and the standard 18" wheels (which will cost as much as the S).

I believe you feel that that combo would give you the lightest and most nimble 997. If that is your goal, that may be the car for you.

For the same money I will take a 997S which I feel will overall outperform that particular combo.

Phil

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Apr 16, 2005 6:45:42 AM

milsuperdoc: Newbie; Loc: VA, USA; Posts: 17, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 15, 2004; Reply to: PS CA

Re: Which is better for passing? non-S or S?

Hmmm....does this mean that a 120 LB woman driver can go faster than a 290 LB male driver in identically equipped cars? Haha.

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Apr 16, 2005 1:45:44 PM

vtrader: Veteran; Loc: Los Angeles; Posts: 1086, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 6, 2004; Reply to: MMD

Re: Which is better for passing? non-S or S?

Quote:
MMD said:
The only *practical* reason I ordered the S would be because I assumed it passes faster on rural highways around here. You know, I just can't stand someone on front of me going 50, 55,49,47, 58, 60, 53mph; ...

Both cars pass instantly.

If a Porsche 911 was a Dell computer and you were going to order it online, under the configuration page, the Carerra 2 would be listed as BETTER and the Carrera 2S would be listed as BEST.

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Apr 16, 2005 9:22:07 PM

fritz: Rennteam VIP; Loc: BaWü , Germany; Posts: 10248, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 23, 2003; Reply to: milsuperdoc

Re: Which is better for passing? non-S or S?

Quote:
milsuperdoc said:
Hmmm....does this mean that a 120 LB woman driver can go faster than a 290 LB male driver in identically equipped cars? Haha.

Well, since you ask, yes! Quicker in terms of acceleration, at least.

Not necessarily faster in terms of top speed, as speed is limited more by aerodynamic drag than by total vehicle weight.

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Apr 16, 2005 9:31:08 PM

fritz: Rennteam VIP; Loc: BaWü , Germany; Posts: 10248, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 23, 2003; Reply to: PS CA

Re: Which is better for passing? non-S or S?

Quote:
PS CA said:
What are you talking about? You are the one that continually says that the 56 pound difference makes the non-S a better handling car. I am among those that think the 56 pound difference is insignificant. The benefits clearly outweigh the slight weight difference. I feel the weight issue is a non-issue.

I believe you mentioned that your ideal 997 would be a non-S 997 without PASM, with PCCB and the standard 18" wheels (which will cost as much as the S).

I believe you feel that that combo would give you the lightest and most nimble 997. If that is your goal, that may be the car for you.

For the same money I will take a 997S which I feel will overall outperform that particular combo.

Phil

You have to consider where PCCB is concerned that the weight reduction involved is a reduction of "rotating masses" and of "unsprung masses", which are both much more beneficial in terms of both acceleration and handling than taking the same weight out of, for instance, the interior of the car.

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Apr 17, 2005 2:05:50 PM

Dilinger: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Athens,Greece , Greece; Posts: 2034, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 23, 2004; Reply to: fritz

Re: Which is better for passing? non-S or S?

we are again splitting hairs!!

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Apr 17, 2005 3:30:59 PM

Trundle_GT3: Veteran; Loc: CA, USA; Posts: 1016, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 30, 2003; Reply to: Dilinger

Re: Which is better for passing? non-S or S?

Flexibility (50-75 mph) Manual gearbox
997 6.5s
997S 6.1s

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Apr 17, 2005 6:20:28 PM

Dilinger: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Athens,Greece , Greece; Posts: 2034, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 23, 2004; Reply to: Trundle_GT3

Re: Which is better for passing? non-S or S?

is it so important? 0.4? when passing a slower car?

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Apr 17, 2005 7:26:25 PM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: Dilinger

Re: Which is better for passing? non-S or S?

60 mph equals 88 feet per second.

.4 seconds means a difference of 35 feet.

That's two car lengths.

So passing lanes on two lane rural highways are sometimes very limited, two car lengths is significant amount of space.

Good brakes help too!!

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Apr 17, 2005 7:31:40 PM

Dilinger: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Athens,Greece , Greece; Posts: 2034, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 23, 2004; Reply to: MMD

Re: Which is better for passing? non-S or S?

i know i dont disagree but when passing is happening you dont measure it to milisecond otherwise you might get hurt.
I believe this is not an issue for buying an S, because the standard carrera will already pass by all cars with great easyness.

There are other 100,000 reasons for going for the S but not this

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Apr 17, 2005 7:39:36 PM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: Dilinger

Re: Which is better for passing? non-S or S?

Quote:
Dilinger said:

There are other 100,000 reasons for going for the S but not this

I'm not sure I get your point.

Basically, one quailty I MUST HAVE in a car is lots of HP to make passing on these rural highways faster and safer.

This IS a valid reason, because no one would want a less powerful car when they felt the need/urge to pass on roads like these. In short: the more HP the better.

My 99,999 other reasons aren't as clear!

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Apr 17, 2005 7:43:27 PM

Dilinger: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Athens,Greece , Greece; Posts: 2034, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 23, 2004; Reply to: MMD

Re: Which is better for passing? non-S or S?

MMD, i said this is not a reason, because you will never feel shorthanded with a base carrera

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Apr 17, 2005 8:36:45 PM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: Dilinger

Re: Which is better for passing? non-S or S?

Quote:
Dilinger said:
MMD, i said this is not a reason, because you will never feel shorthanded with a base carrera

Oh I see. Yes. I agree. I guess my ONLY "practical" reason is NOW really only an emotional one!

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Apr 18, 2005 1:53:33 PM

69bossnine: Rennteam Pro; Loc: FL, USA , United States; Posts: 2028, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 27, 2005; Reply to: MMD

Re: Which is better for passing? non-S or S?

Quote:
MMD said:
60 mph equals 88 feet per second.

.4 seconds means a difference of 35 feet.

That's two car lengths.

So passing lanes on two lane rural highways are sometimes very limited, two car lengths is significant amount of space.

Good brakes help too!!

This all illustrates differences in personalities, not just cars, which is why Porsche offers more than one model of 911!! I'll offer up two mythical characters:

Johnny J. Practical would say, "Two car lengths??? Ahhh, we're splitting hairs here, who would cut a pass that close anyhow?"

Sven P. Speedjunkie would say, "Two car lengths??? That's huge!!! If I had Johnny Practical right on my tail, and I could pull 2 lengths on him as he tried to hang with me passing a slower car, that's big..."

In any event, whether it's road racing, drag racing, or just street driving, pulling 2 car lengths under full-throttle in such a relatively small space is fairly definitive. However, I have no idea what the source of the performance data posted earlier is, or what the conditions were. I'm guessing, by its times, that it was a top-gear (6th) pull, which is a real low-rpm grunt, where the S's superior torque would shine. But that's not real-life, as we would all normally downshift to 3rd or 4th, or even 2nd, to perform such a pass or acceleration sprint.

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Apr 18, 2005 2:07:47 PM

vtrader: Veteran; Loc: Los Angeles; Posts: 1086, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 6, 2004; Reply to: Trundle_GT3

Re: Which is better for passing? non-S or S?

Quote:
Trundle997S said:
Flexibility (50-75 mph) Manual gearbox
997 6.5s
997S 6.1s

I can go from 0 to 60 in 4.8 seconds. From 50 to 75 mph its 6.5 seconds? That seems very slow. Where did those numbers come from?

Whenever I go for a drive, I always look for a 2 lane road. I have never ever had a situation where the base 997 could not pass a car instantly. The biggest problem I have had is that the car accelerates too quickly and my speed when I pass is always between 90-100 mph.

And who is going to pass a car with two car lengths to spare? The oncoming people would probably either die from a heart attack or have a little accident inside their car.

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