Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: Boxster Coupe / GTS now called C7S???? - Page1

Jan 11, 2005 1:28:40 PM

RichJ: Veteran; Loc: London, England; Posts: 846, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 16, 2004

Boxster Coupe / GTS now called C7S????

Just something I found on the autocar website, interesting...

http://www.autocarmagazine.co.uk/news_article.asp?na_id=213050

Anyone bought the magazine yet?

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Jan 11, 2005 3:44:02 PM

AS4s: Pilot; Loc: New York , United States; Posts: 328, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 10, 2004; Reply to: RichJ

Re: Boxster Coupe / GTS now called C7S????

That's interesting, I don't have the magazine yet but if what they are talking about its true, all the talk about not creating a car that could take market share from 911 sort of goes down the drain. 300 bph in this configuration should outperform the Carrera right?

I wonder if they would also plan to introduce a convertible version with this new bigger engine, it would make sense right?

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Jan 11, 2005 3:58:19 PM

Rich C (UK): Veteran; Loc: Mortimer, UK; Posts: 1098, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 11, 2004; Reply to: AS4s

Re: Boxster Coupe / GTS now called C7S????

And if the stick to the boxer engine configuration, and a 2 seat convertible is know as a roadster, they could call it the 'Roader' - just a thought.....

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Jan 11, 2005 4:02:21 PM

Mellow Yellow: Co-Pilot; Loc: Atlanta, GA , United States; Posts: 171, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 29, 2003; Reply to: AS4s

Re: Boxster Coupe / GTS now called C7S????

Quote:
senra said:
That's interesting, I don't have the magazine yet but if what they are talking about its true, all the talk about not creating a car that could take market share from 911 sort of goes down the drain. 300 bph in this configuration should outperform the Carrera right?

I wonder if they would also plan to introduce a convertible version with this new bigger engine, it would make sense right?

You won't see any more HP in the 987 and 987S until probably MY07 or MY08. 2 years is usually minimum for a power bump.

A higher end Boxster coupe will already be very close to 911 power/performance territory. I know why they have been hestitant on doing it in the past, but if they charge more for it, who cares? Do it.

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Jan 11, 2005 4:03:27 PM

Dr. Phil: Rennteam Master; Loc: Denmark , Denmark; Posts: 5884, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 30, 2004; Reply to: Rich C (UK)

Re: Boxster Coupe / GTS now called C7S????

I think they will call it the Couper...or maybe the Boxé

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Jan 11, 2005 4:09:30 PM

RichJ: Veteran; Loc: London, England; Posts: 846, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 16, 2004; Reply to: Dr. Phil

Re: Boxster Coupe / GTS now called C7S????

And there is talk of a clubsport version... now that would be interesting! Especially if 300bhp, around the 50k mark and much lighter than the boxster... MMmmmmm

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Jan 11, 2005 7:41:53 PM

Atlantis: Senior; Loc: Warwickshire, England , United Kingdom; Posts: 552, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 23, 2003; Reply to: RichJ

Re: Boxster Coupe / GTS now called C7S????

Here's some more info from the magazine. The C7 will launch with only one model - the C7S - an entry level (3.2 litre) and clubsport versions may appear at a later date. The C7S gets a new 3.4 litre engine putting out 300bhp. PASM / PCCB / DSG will be available as standard equipment / options. Prototype versions are already lapping the ring quicker than the 997 Carrera (8min 15 sec). An LSD version is in development. The car will be built in Finland by Valmet and will cost around Pounds50k (997 carrera is Pounds55k). The car is being pitched as an out-and-out drivers car, more focussed than both the 911 and Boxster.

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Jan 11, 2005 7:46:41 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12588, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: Atlantis

Re: Boxster Coupe / GTS now called C7S????

Quote:
Atlantis said:
Here's some more info from the magazine. The C7 will launch with only one model - the C7S - an entry level (3.2 litre) and clubsport versions may appear at a later date. The C7S gets a new 3.4 litre engine putting out 300bhp. PASM / PCCB / DSG will be available as standard equipment / options. Prototype versions are already lapping the ring quicker than the 997 Carrera (8min 15 sec). An LSD version is in development. The car will be built in Finland by Valmet and will cost around Pounds50k (997 carrera is Pounds55k). The car is being pitched as an out-and-out drivers car, more focussed than both the 911 and Boxster.

Bring it on! Only shortcoming I see for a great and affordable road/track car is the wet sump motor of the 3.4L...

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Jan 11, 2005 7:49:02 PM

RR4: Senior; Loc:; Posts: 608, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 7, 2003; Reply to: Grant

Re: Boxster Coupe / GTS now called C7S????

Sounds like a 1999 C2 to me.

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Jan 11, 2005 8:03:53 PM

Frissen: Co-Pilot; Loc: Houston , United States; Posts: 187, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 12, 2003; Reply to: RichJ

Re: Boxster Coupe / GTS now called C7S????

The photo is nice and all but where in there is the engine? Is it a hatch? with a hump behind the seats? Will you be able to access engine from top? We well know the compromises of a mid engine coupe (read Elise or 360M) will Porsche cope with such compromises? Or will Porsche stick to its premises on engineering? Form follows function. I know Porsche loves this type of publicity, but we need some word from Porsche itself to make this story stick a little better.

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Jan 11, 2005 8:13:08 PM

ELUSIVE: Junior; Loc: Denver, CO; Posts: 98, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 20, 2004; Reply to: Frissen

Re: Boxster Coupe / GTS now called C7S????

if it comes standard with PASM/PCCB/DSG look for the starting price to be in the mid $50K range. PCCB is a $8K+ option on the 987/997 and PASM is about $2K. Not sure what the DSG would cost...but those options alone will bring the price of the coupe up over the current 987S..even with the 3.2L motor.

Stacey

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Jan 11, 2005 9:47:42 PM

rsgl: Newbie; Loc:; Posts: 42, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 1, 2004; Reply to: ELUSIVE

Re: Boxster Coupe / GTS now called C7S????

In my view, this signifies the beginning of Porsche coming to terms with the 911's inherent flaw--weight distribution. The Coupester will surpass the 911's dynamics, and enable Porsche to compete--price and performance-- with the mid-engine supercars. Eventually it could become higher end than the 911.

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Jan 11, 2005 10:06:24 PM

Rich C (UK): Veteran; Loc: Mortimer, UK; Posts: 1098, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 11, 2004; Reply to: rsgl

Jan 11, 2005 10:50:54 PM

Ron (Houston): Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Houston, TX , United States; Posts: 8812, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 10, 2002; Reply to: Rich C (UK)

Re: Full Autocar article....

You 'Da man Rich

thanks.

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Jan 12, 2005 1:56:42 AM

MikeN: Senior; Loc: Arizona; Posts: 595, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 4, 2004; Reply to: ELUSIVE

Re: Boxster Coupe / GTS now called C7S????

Quote:
ELUSIVE said:
if it comes standard with PASM/PCCB/DSG look for the starting price to be in the mid $50K range. PCCB is a $8K+ option on the 987/997 and PASM is about $2K. Not sure what the DSG would cost...but those options alone will bring the price of the coupe up over the current 987S..even with the 3.2L motor.

Stacey

50K in the UK translates into about $65K USD starting price for the C7S....much too much in my opinion with most of the compitition being lower priced with more HP. No doubt it will be a nice car but not enough bang for the buck at that price. I wonder what the 3.2 base cars price will be? It would truly be a joke if they priced it higher than the Boxster S.....

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Jan 12, 2005 2:29:10 AM

ELUSIVE: Junior; Loc: Denver, CO; Posts: 98, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 20, 2004; Reply to: MikeN

Re: Boxster Coupe / GTS now called C7S????

My mid $50K starting price estimate was in USD.
A nicely equiped one with some of the options is going to easily put this car into the low to mid $60K USD range...Not too far off from the 997.

Stacey

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Jan 12, 2005 3:54:54 AM

Justin: Veteran; Loc: San Diego, CA, USA; Posts: 979, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 12, 2003; Reply to: ELUSIVE

Re: Boxster Coupe / GTS now called C7S????

Would rather have the extra dynamics than a few hp any day, especially where I live. Porsche is listening somewhat (they have to protect their interests too)!

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Jan 12, 2005 4:24:27 AM

MikeN: Senior; Loc: Arizona; Posts: 595, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 4, 2004; Reply to: ELUSIVE

Re: Boxster Coupe / GTS now called C7S????

Quote:
ELUSIVE said:
My mid $50K starting price estimate was in USD.
A nicely equiped one with some of the options is going to easily put this car into the low to mid $60K USD range...Not too far off from the 997.

Stacey

Boxster S starts at Pounds37,923 incl. VAT = $53,100 USD
911 Carrera starts at Pounds58,380 incl. VAT = $69,300 USD

If the C7S starts at Pounds50,000 that would mean the STARTING price in USD will be around $65,000......

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Jan 12, 2005 5:27:15 AM

JimFlat6: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cave , United States; Posts: 8633, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 25, 2004; Reply to: MikeN

Re: Boxster Coupe / GTS now called C7S????

By virtue of its fixed roof, suspension and
engine its a leap ahead of the standard Boxster.

Porsche is very skilled making the right handling/traction/braking formulas.

Its nice to see their new "sporting" emphasis
with a mid engine car.

Maybe in a year we will also see Porsches attempt at
a "VolksLambo" with a Cayenne V8 and 4 wheel drive.

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Jan 12, 2005 9:38:34 AM

Dr. Phil: Rennteam Master; Loc: Denmark , Denmark; Posts: 5884, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 30, 2004; Reply to: JimFlat6

Re: Boxster Coupe / GTS now called C7S????

Just read the article (thanks, Rich) and from what I can deduct from this, the new C7s is Porsche's future cornerstone car.
If you think the Boxster is too small, too cheap and too un-Porsche and you find the 911 too un-sportscarlike with rear engine and 2+2 seating, this is the car to get.
It takes the best from both the Boxster and the 911 and makes the purest car. "What Porsche is all about" in essence.
I think this might be the successor to the 911.
They should have called it "Baby CGT" instead, cuz that's what it seems to be according to the tech specs, not design.

This could very well be the sweetest ride Porsche has even made in the sub-CGT segment.
Make it in a hard-flipflop-rooftop-SLK-roadster version, and I'll sign up for it

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Jan 12, 2005 9:46:35 AM

Dr. Phil: Rennteam Master; Loc: Denmark , Denmark; Posts: 5884, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 30, 2004; Reply to: rsgl

Re: Boxster Coupe / GTS now called C7S????

Quote:
rsgl said:
In my view, this signifies the beginning of Porsche coming to terms with the 911's inherent flaw--weight distribution. The Coupester will surpass the 911's dynamics, and enable Porsche to compete--price and performance-- with the mid-engine supercars. Eventually it could become higher end than the 911.

Sorry, I didnt see this post....seems I just made the same point

But very true RSGL, the "C7s" is definately laid out as a true sportscar - unlike the 911.

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Jan 12, 2005 12:01:16 PM

ISUK: Rennteam Master; Loc: UK , United Kingdom; Posts: 4206, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: Dr. Phil

Re: Boxster Coupe / GTS now called C7S????

I struggle a little with the market positioning of this car. What is it meant to be competing with at the Pounds50k/$65k mark? At this sort of money most of the two seat competition either have bigger engines or clever folding tin top roofs. I would have thought that it is priced too close to the 997 Carrera and many buyers will still regard that as the car to have. Other buyers may be put off by thinking it is expensive when compared to the Boxster S which offers open top fun or a coupe like experience with a hard top fitted. Is it going to be more of a track day enthusiasts car as a result I wonder?

The original rumours put this model as an entry level car below the Boxster. Perhaps Porsche believe that the demand at this price level would have been greater than they could handle currently in terms of after sales support. After all it would have meant the car competing head on with the likes of the Audi TT 3.2 DSG and how many buyers would take an Audi over a Porsche! Maybe Porsche have stumbled upon a cash cow model here. It should be cheaper to manufacture than the Boxster and at Pounds50k will turn a nice profit margin for them.

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Jan 12, 2005 1:19:58 PM

W8MM: Rennteam Master; Loc: Cincinnati, OH , United States; Posts: 3997, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 8, 2003; Reply to: ISUK

Re: Boxster Coupe / GTS now called C7S????

Quote:
ISUK said: Maybe Porsche have stumbled upon a cash cow model here. It should be cheaper to manufacture than the Boxster and at Pounds50k will turn a nice profit margin for them.

Interesting analysis.

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Jan 12, 2005 2:53:00 PM

rsgl: Newbie; Loc:; Posts: 42, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 1, 2004; Reply to: W8MM

Re: Boxster Coupe / GTS now called C7S????

DrPhil, I agree.

ISUK, one can, I believe, argue, that Porsche is testing the water with the Coupester. That is, they want to see whether a car that is 'the Best Design enabling the Best Performance' can become their premium sportscar. If it achieves icon status through its superior performance it could replace the 911 at the top of the range. On the other hand, if it were to start below the Boxster in price, it would be harder to move it up to the 911's price level.

No maker offers something like the Coupester at that price range. Rather there are poseur sportscars--the Mercedes for example.

The 911 is a unique cross between a wonderful shape and high performance. The Coupster we're now seeing is a good shape, but is it as good as the 911? I offer this hypothetical notion, now obviously irrelevant: a 911'ster--a mid-engine option for the 911.

This would allow the love affair with the shape to continue, and the performance to improve, while avoiding the awkwardness of the third, in-between-priced model.

But then the rear wheels would have to be moved rear-ward, which would throw off the proportions, which are so essential.

Just a thought.

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Jan 12, 2005 3:29:29 PM

AS4s: Pilot; Loc: New York , United States; Posts: 328, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 10, 2004; Reply to: rsgl

Re: Boxster Coupe / GTS now called C7S????

I thought that was the way the 911 would end up going, meaning a move to mid-engine, however I guess that will not happen now.

I also thought that if Porsche wanted to introduce a new model that could in the future become the premium model of the firm ahead of the 911, it would have to be a different exterior design than the 987, something like a baby CGT instead of a baby 911. just think about it, the title of the article in this magazine is "baby 911." Can the baby 911 grow up to be a 911 replacement after 40 years of 911 hystory and 911 die-hard fans?

I find it very confusing the positioning of the new car vis-a-vi the Boxster or the 911.

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Jan 12, 2005 3:47:00 PM

MKW: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Palo Alto and North Lake Tahoe , United States; Posts: 2491, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 22, 2002; Reply to: rsgl

Re: Boxster Coupe / GTS now called C7S????

I love the classic silhouette of the 911 coupe and it allows me to enjoy supercar level performance and carry my two kids along for fun trips. OTOH, if I were the sole driver or rarely had even a front passenger( or in the case of the GT3/GT2 w/o rear seats ) , the 911 layout is very inefficient . Better to have that engine moved forward to where the rear seats are deleted . It's a real shame there isn't the availabilty of the full range of 911 motors in what would be essentially a " mid engine 911 coupe " if the " C7 " were fully realized.
Imagine 3000 lb C7 coupes with options of GT3 and GT2 drivetrains ! But that would wreak havoc with the Turbo and the C-GT market .

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Jan 12, 2005 4:44:27 PM

Dr. Phil: Rennteam Master; Loc: Denmark , Denmark; Posts: 5884, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 30, 2004; Reply to: MKW

Re: Boxster Coupe / GTS now called C7S????

Quote:
MKW said:

Imagine 3000 lb C7 coupes with options of GT3 and GT2 drivetrains ! But that would wreak havoc with the Turbo and the C-GT market .

MKW, "wreaking havoc" in that segment is - i believe- a very good idea for Porsche. It's far better that they cannibalize on themselves and their own model range, than some other carmaker doing it.
IOW it's better that Porsche competes with themwselves and have customers pick between a Porsche and a Porsche, than having them choose between a Porsche and a Merc for instance.

If we want to secondguess the Porsche management and their plans with the C7s, I believe we have a better chance of succeeding, if we think like a the management of an automobile manufacturer, than if we think like a Porsche buyer.

Our interest as buyers, is often focused on "how does my car fit into the model range? Is it the coolest or not?", where as the focus of the carmaker is more along the lines of "how do we offer a product range that appeals to most segments while staying true to both our legacy and current clients?"

Just my 2 cents

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Jan 12, 2005 4:49:12 PM

ISUK: Rennteam Master; Loc: UK , United Kingdom; Posts: 4206, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: MKW

Re: Boxster Coupe / GTS now called C7S????

Just a few idle thoughts that I had....

I think it would be difficult for Porsche to turn the 911 into a mid engined car from a marketing/heritage viewpoint. If they did decide to do this they would lose it's unique 2+2 selling point and it would then become more of a direct Ferrari V8 model competitor as a 2 seat sportscar. The 911 is an attractive proposition to it's target audience as it really is a cut price supercar (apart from the Turbo which they price to the max). And who hasn't lusted after a 911 since they were a child or a teenager?

The 911 must be a real "problem" for Porsche albeit a nice, profitable problem. They tried replacing it with the 928 back in 1977 but this model is long since dead yet still the buying public want the 911. With modern electronics they have tamed the handling to such a point that the rear engine location issue is now almost an irrelevance as the handling is so good. Without the continued success of the 911 Porsche might not be with us in their current form but would most likely have been swallowed up by Volkswagen under the stewardship of Ferdinand Piech.

The Coupester is therefore something of an enigma. If I were a betting man I'd say the product planners dreamt this car up during the original design phase of the 986 as the new entry level model. It was perhaps viewed as a succesor to the 924/944 but offering real performance at an attractive price point. It was probably shelved due to the lack of development cash available at the time and Porsche chose to concentrate on the Boxster instead due to the explosion in roadster sales in the mid 90's. With the success of the Cayenne, which has brought a new lease of life to the company in the form of profitability, the Coupester proposal has been dusted off and the opportunity taken to push the car further upmarket as Porsche enjoys renewed market success as a premium brand. After all if your brand is strong enough to let you charge Pounds50k for a Pounds30k car you would be stupid not to if you are a low volume manufacturer. The profits from such a model, if it is a sales success, will allow the development of the much rumoured front engined m5 chasing performance sedan. It'll be interesting to see where that car ends up being priced but my guess is it will be at least Pounds10-15k more expensive than the new M5.

As I said, just my thoughts...

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Jan 12, 2005 5:02:08 PM

Dr. Phil: Rennteam Master; Loc: Denmark , Denmark; Posts: 5884, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 30, 2004; Reply to: ISUK

Re: Boxster Coupe / GTS now called C7S????

ISUK, youre right on the money IMO.
This is a car BUSINESS, not a bunch of garage nerds having fun building a few cars.
They (Porsche) HAVE to keep moving forward, pushing the market and stretching their product line to survive.
Some of these cars will be blasfemy (e.g. Cayenne) according to diehard (mainly 911) Porsche fans, but if they didn't "compromise" their heritage and do line extensions and explore new markets, we probably wouldn't be able to enjoy their "real" Porsches in the future.

The mere thought of a Porsche sedan makes me sick to my stomach, but I do believe they HAVE to do something like that to keep the company around for another 50 years.
Dr. Phil, directly from the Porsche Smartass Centre in Know-it-all City

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Jan 12, 2005 5:12:27 PM

ISUK: Rennteam Master; Loc: UK , United Kingdom; Posts: 4206, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: Dr. Phil

Re: Boxster Coupe / GTS now called C7S????

Dr Phil,

I feel I should confess. I like the Cayenne because it is so distinctive. Has to be in the right spec and colour though - artic silver, 20" wheels, off road design pack etc etc. I am also looking forward to seeing the four door performance saloon as this could potentially be a great car. It won't harm future Boxster or 911 development either as it will strengthen Porsche's bottom line profitability if it is a success.

ISUK, enthusiast, car nut, and fortune teller!

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Boxster Coupe / GTS now called C7S????

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