Nov 2, 2004 10:17:02 PM
- Holminator
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Re: 997S severe system failure!
ossi, I know you won't like what I say but I think your problem is actually a dealer problem, not a problem with Porsche. Sh.t can happen, a faulty control module is no fun after 3200 mls but your car didn't completely brake down and apparently you were able to drive on after the reset.
It would have been much worse if the engine, gearbox, etc. were defective, this is something I would never had accepted after 3200 mls. But to get to the point: even here in Germany, dealers aren't always very good at customer service. Some dealerships don't understand that a customer who pays 100000 Euro or USD or whatever for a product, doesn't want to wait a day or two for a diagnosis only.
They want the dealership to take the car in, to check what is wrong while the customer is waiting (if he wants to wait) and discuss a possible solution with him. Well, in most dealerships I know this won't happen.
I know that my dealer reads my posts and I don't want him to get it wrong because I'm very happy with my dealer but to give you an example: I waited for weeks for the airbag deactivation kit for the front passenger seat. My little daughter loves to ride with me from time to time and she enjoys riding in the front. I asked somebody at Porsche for a favour and surprisingly, my dealer got the airbag deactivation kit the next day by surprise. Now guess what happened next, my mechanic scheduled the install almost two weeks later because they were busy and they never did it before and had to check it out first.
The new chief mechanic worked for GM (Opel/Chevrolet) before, so maybe he isn't used to the new customer type yet.
Or maybe this helps, something a guy told me who worked in training of mechanics over here in Germany: "What do you expect from these guys? A Porsche mechanic gets the same money as a Skoda or Fiat mechanic, so don't expect a different attitude or increased interest towards the customer and/or the products." I was surprised to hear this and I started to think about it. Soon I realized that this guy was right. The Porsche mechanics are working the same way on my 100000 Euro car as they would work on a 10000 Euro car and this is maybe where the problems start.
Attitude is the key word and I have to say that there are mechanics who are proud of their work and they really try to do a good job. My Mercedes mechanic is such a guy, I wish he would work at my Porsche dealership.
Long talk, short meaning: talk to the manager. Talk to PCNA. I wouldn't be too mad because of the control module failure because it can happen, this is something which isn't supposed to happen but it happens. Nothing to worry about. My car has now 5500 km and it is trouble free, despite of a funny noise coming sometimes from the clutch, a noise we're still investigating because everytime I'm at my dealer to demonstrate it to him, the noise isn't there. But so far, no problems, no failures, no bugs, nothing.
My dealer also has several 997 showcars, some of them already with more than 3000 km on the speedo and they didn't have any problems at all.
Regarding loaners: my dealer gave me a VW Beetle or a VW Golf as a loaner a few years ago. I wasn't too happy.
Now he gives me a 997 or Boxster, this is much nicer.
But of course he does it because we know each other well, he knows I'm not driving too much with the loaner and he probably considers me a good customer. I like this attitude but of course I realize that a Boxster customer might not get a free Porsche loaner in case of a warranty repair. The main problem is that a small Porsche dealer can't afford to permanently have two or three loaners available for customers all the time.
And even my large Mercedes dealership is a little bit picky regarding customers: I always get a loaner and a pretty nice one but probably because of my friendly relationship to my mechanic. Usually customers get a free taxi ride to work/home and back to the dealership.
In your case, the problem is definetely the dealership and not the car. I don't know how good your relationship to your dealer is but it usually helps to be a good customer and sometimes a friendly tone might get you more than the angry approach. Sometimes.
It would have been much worse if the engine, gearbox, etc. were defective, this is something I would never had accepted after 3200 mls. But to get to the point: even here in Germany, dealers aren't always very good at customer service. Some dealerships don't understand that a customer who pays 100000 Euro or USD or whatever for a product, doesn't want to wait a day or two for a diagnosis only.
They want the dealership to take the car in, to check what is wrong while the customer is waiting (if he wants to wait) and discuss a possible solution with him. Well, in most dealerships I know this won't happen.
I know that my dealer reads my posts and I don't want him to get it wrong because I'm very happy with my dealer but to give you an example: I waited for weeks for the airbag deactivation kit for the front passenger seat. My little daughter loves to ride with me from time to time and she enjoys riding in the front. I asked somebody at Porsche for a favour and surprisingly, my dealer got the airbag deactivation kit the next day by surprise. Now guess what happened next, my mechanic scheduled the install almost two weeks later because they were busy and they never did it before and had to check it out first.
The new chief mechanic worked for GM (Opel/Chevrolet) before, so maybe he isn't used to the new customer type yet.
Or maybe this helps, something a guy told me who worked in training of mechanics over here in Germany: "What do you expect from these guys? A Porsche mechanic gets the same money as a Skoda or Fiat mechanic, so don't expect a different attitude or increased interest towards the customer and/or the products." I was surprised to hear this and I started to think about it. Soon I realized that this guy was right. The Porsche mechanics are working the same way on my 100000 Euro car as they would work on a 10000 Euro car and this is maybe where the problems start.
Attitude is the key word and I have to say that there are mechanics who are proud of their work and they really try to do a good job. My Mercedes mechanic is such a guy, I wish he would work at my Porsche dealership.
Long talk, short meaning: talk to the manager. Talk to PCNA. I wouldn't be too mad because of the control module failure because it can happen, this is something which isn't supposed to happen but it happens. Nothing to worry about. My car has now 5500 km and it is trouble free, despite of a funny noise coming sometimes from the clutch, a noise we're still investigating because everytime I'm at my dealer to demonstrate it to him, the noise isn't there. But so far, no problems, no failures, no bugs, nothing.
My dealer also has several 997 showcars, some of them already with more than 3000 km on the speedo and they didn't have any problems at all.
Regarding loaners: my dealer gave me a VW Beetle or a VW Golf as a loaner a few years ago. I wasn't too happy.
Now he gives me a 997 or Boxster, this is much nicer.
But of course he does it because we know each other well, he knows I'm not driving too much with the loaner and he probably considers me a good customer. I like this attitude but of course I realize that a Boxster customer might not get a free Porsche loaner in case of a warranty repair. The main problem is that a small Porsche dealer can't afford to permanently have two or three loaners available for customers all the time.
And even my large Mercedes dealership is a little bit picky regarding customers: I always get a loaner and a pretty nice one but probably because of my friendly relationship to my mechanic. Usually customers get a free taxi ride to work/home and back to the dealership.
In your case, the problem is definetely the dealership and not the car. I don't know how good your relationship to your dealer is but it usually helps to be a good customer and sometimes a friendly tone might get you more than the angry approach.
Sometimes.
Re: 997S severe system failure!
RC, your points about being a good customer are certainly valid, but in my case I was more than patient with them. I do not think that 7 days in the shop out of the first 45 days of ownership is reasonable, no matter how much the car costs. The fact is that PCNA and my dealer didn't know how to fix the issue, and it didn't help that the first "official fix" made the car even worse. I did everything I could to be "nice" to the dealer and PCNA, and if anyone thinks that a 15% in-the-shop ratio is reasonable, they're nuts.
BTW, calling Porsche's "customer satisfaction" line in the USA is a dead-end if there ever was one. You get to talk to some bozo who knows nothing, who can't really do anything to help, and who really doesn't give a damn about theh customers. In this day-and-age of outsourcing and other means to lower costs I'm not surprised, but I would warn anyone who reads the marketing drivel in the Porsche manuals to realize that there really isn't any help on the other end of the line. If the dealer can't do something, go to PCNA directly and bypass this nonsense.
BTW, calling Porsche's "customer satisfaction" line in the USA is a dead-end if there ever was one. You get to talk to some bozo who knows nothing, who can't really do anything to help, and who really doesn't give a damn about theh customers. In this day-and-age of outsourcing and other means to lower costs I'm not surprised, but I would warn anyone who reads the marketing drivel in the Porsche manuals to realize that there really isn't any help on the other end of the line. If the dealer can't do something, go to PCNA directly and bypass this nonsense.
Re: 997S severe system failure!
Since I have not had a new Porsche serviced in twenty years, is Porsche service similar to say Audi and BMW where they, Audi/BMW, will call you afterwards and you rate their service? I know when I picked up my car, the dealer wanted to make sure everything was just right cause Porsche is suppose to call and I am suppose to rate the experience. The dealer said new car allocation can either be added or taken away based on customer feedback. I know with the Audi I have, Audi always calls afterwards and it was the same with BMW.
Re: 997S severe system failure!
Quote:
VKSF said:
... P dealers are few and far between in various corridors of wealth, none in city of SF, only 1? in Orange County, etc. Yet some Eastern cities have several small P dealers. PCNA needs to re-examine the map of wealth centers in US (which has changed dramatically in past 15 yrs) and re-allocate dealer franchises (AKA licenses to print money)....
The problem is the dollar/German mark rate on why Orange county only has one dealer. It use to have at least four dealers before. When Porsche did not hedge the mark to the dollar in the past, they were forced to raise prices at a high rate. This lead to the to decrease sales, major losses for Porsche, dealers abandoning the Porsche marque or going out of business.
And as I recall, there use to be a Porsche dealer in San Francisco. In Los Angeles county, I can think of about 7 dealers that are no longer in business.
My 997 S failed again last night. Talk about bad timing!
I started my car last night and the stupid thing has yet another "system fault", so it's back at the "workshop" today. This is the 5th visit to the dealer for the same stupid problem, and now makes 8, yes 8 days that it has been in the shop in the first 67 days of ownership. That's more than a week, and it's more days than I would expect the car to be at the dealer over a 4-6 year period.
Do any of you reading this board honestly think that this is in any way, shape, or form a resonable expectation for a 100k automobile? If so, you need to carefully explain to me why this is okay, and why I shouldn't be mad as hell. My thinking right now is to start a letter-writing campaign to all of the car magazines, tv shows, car clubs, etc. to let the world know how poorly Porsche treats its customers. I'm sure that the competition would love to hear about this, and the media would have a field day with it.
Again, if you think that I should just "suck it up" and live with it, you better have a very convincing argument as to why this sort of thing is to be expected.
alin2, yes, I'm the same Skip from rennlist. I love the car for it's potential, and when it runs it's great, but I must say that the ownership experience has been miserable and I'm beyond upset now. This car is the _worst_ that I've purchased over the years, and that is crazy considering that it's one of the most expensive.
Do any of you reading this board honestly think that this is in any way, shape, or form a resonable expectation for a 100k automobile? If so, you need to carefully explain to me why this is okay, and why I shouldn't be mad as hell. My thinking right now is to start a letter-writing campaign to all of the car magazines, tv shows, car clubs, etc. to let the world know how poorly Porsche treats its customers. I'm sure that the competition would love to hear about this, and the media would have a field day with it.
Again, if you think that I should just "suck it up" and live with it, you better have a very convincing argument as to why this sort of thing is to be expected.
alin2, yes, I'm the same Skip from rennlist. I love the car for it's potential, and when it runs it's great, but I must say that the ownership experience has been miserable and I'm beyond upset now. This car is the _worst_ that I've purchased over the years, and that is crazy considering that it's one of the most expensive.
Re: My 997 S failed again last night. Talk about bad timing!
Skip, your 997S sounds like a lemon P's only lame excuse will be that this reliability rate is comparable to those of Merc and BMW 
Amazingly (and counterintuitively), I've consistently heard better feedback re: reliability from 360 owners over past 3 yrs....
P's only lame excuse will be that this reliability rate is comparable to those of Merc and BMW Amazingly (and counterintuitively), I've consistently heard better feedback re: reliability from 360 owners over past 3 yrs....
Nov 3, 2004 8:10:01 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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Nov 3, 2004 10:16:42 PM
- Trundle_GT3
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Nov 3, 2004 10:45:02 PM
- SoCal Alan
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Nov 3, 2004 10:48:22 PM
- SoCal Alan
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Re: My 997 S failed again last night. Talk about bad timing!
Quote:
Skip said:
I started my car last night and the stupid thing has yet another "system fault", so it's back at the "workshop" today. This is the 5th visit to the dealer for the same stupid problem, and now makes 8, yes 8 days that it has been in the shop in the first 67 days of ownership. That's more than a week, and it's more days than I would expect the car to be at the dealer over a 4-6 year period.
Do any of you reading this board honestly think that this is in any way, shape, or form a resonable expectation for a 100k automobile? If so, you need to carefully explain to me why this is okay, and why I shouldn't be mad as hell. My thinking right now is to start a letter-writing campaign to all of the car magazines, tv shows, car clubs, etc. to let the world know how poorly Porsche treats its customers. I'm sure that the competition would love to hear about this, and the media would have a field day with it.
Again, if you think that I should just "suck it up" and live with it, you better have a very convincing argument as to why this sort of thing is to be expected.
alin2, yes, I'm the same Skip from rennlist. I love the car for it's potential, and when it runs it's great, but I must say that the ownership experience has been miserable and I'm beyond upset now. This car is the _worst_ that I've purchased over the years, and that is crazy considering that it's one of the most expensive.
I feel for you bro. Maybe you can ask these guys what caused the failure and how their "fix" prevents if from happening again. If you're not satisfied with the response, let us know. I might raise a big fuss before I accept delivery tomorrow of my 997S.
Nov 3, 2004 10:53:54 PM
- JohnA
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Re: 997S severe system failure!
Quote:
SoCal Alan said:
Are there any 997S owners on this forum who haven't encountered any electrical problems? I'm getting kind of bummed because I'm supposed to pick up my car tomorrow.
700 miles, no faults at all electrical or mechanical.(fingers crossed)
Nov 3, 2004 11:15:15 PM
- mrcohanian
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Re: 997S severe system failure!
2000 miles, reving the hell out of it in every gear, no problems on my 997S. By the way, kept the rpms under 5000 rpms for the first 200 miles, after that its been a redline shift ever chance I could get.... Forget about the 2000 mile break in period. All my porsche cars have driven hard from the very start, never had a problem. In fact , the car now is finally loosening up.....
Re: 997S severe system failure!
Yeah, really, I also have a January build date. Now, I should probably mention that the dealer replaced the gearbox on my '03 M5 under warranty, no reason given for why the unit went bad. I don't perform any on-throttle shifts or spank the car from a standing start. Guess the suppliers sometimes let the quality slip, and electronics are notoriously fussy.
Nov 4, 2004 1:37:53 AM
- SrfCity
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Re: 997S severe system failure!
Quote:
mrcohanian said:
2000 miles, reving the hell out of it in every gear, no problems on my 997S. By the way, kept the rpms under 5000 rpms for the first 200 miles, after that its been a redline shift ever chance I could get.... Forget about the 2000 mile break in period. All my porsche cars have driven hard from the very start, never had a problem. In fact , the car now is finally loosening up.....
You go girl!!
Nov 4, 2004 1:42:15 AM
- Holminator
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Re: My 997 S failed again last night. Talk about bad timin
Quote:
VKSF said:
Skip, your 997S sounds like a lemon
In CA I think that if you have to return the car a minimum of 5+ times for repairs, it falls under the lemon law. Don't quote me. At any rate, you'd have been able to have them give you a refund by now at the rate you're going. Check into it if you think it's a clunker.
Re: 997S severe system failure!
In Colorado the car is eligible for lemon status if the same problem has been attempted to be repaired 4 or more times without success, or if the cumulative total business days the vehicle is out of is more than 30.
My car has been in to get the "system fault" repaired at least five times, so it probably qualifies.
The PCNA regional rep had them "fix" it again yesterday, and if this one doesn't work then they'll start the process of refunding me my money. I really want a 997 S and love the car, but this has been a truly miserable experience that no car owner should have to go through. Porsche should be ashamed for having let this go on for so long.
My car has been in to get the "system fault" repaired at least five times, so it probably qualifies.
The PCNA regional rep had them "fix" it again yesterday, and if this one doesn't work then they'll start the process of refunding me my money. I really want a 997 S and love the car, but this has been a truly miserable experience that no car owner should have to go through. Porsche should be ashamed for having let this go on for so long.
Re: 997S severe system failure!
Sorry to hear about your experiences, guys! I would accept that a high-performance car as the 997 might be a bit tachy to certain use and a few bugs might be in there in the beginning.
Customer satisfaction is extremely dependent on the particular dealership and even at least on the particular dealership. I have worked in this industry for a while and know enough people (good and poor) but actually this experiences occur in about any service-related business.
Customer satisfaction is extremely dependent on the particular dealership and even at least on the particular dealership. I have worked in this industry for a while and know enough people (good and poor) but actually this experiences occur in about any service-related business.
Re: 997S severe system failure!
I doubt this is a "lemmon" case. It sounds like a bug, typical of 1st year production. Early adopters reap the novelty benefits, but ALWAYS have to endure some new production issues. It happened w/ the 996, the 993, the 964.... and now for sure w/ the 997.
A good dealer w/ a good connection to PCNA helps a lot and no question that owners who experience problems should get some recompense for their troubles. At the same time, early adopters should not give up and run for the lemmon law... it is simply a way of life w/ the introduction of new products.
Re: 997S severe system failure!
IMHO, a lemon is a lemon whether it's a launch vehicle or the last one off the production line. It sounds like Skip's car does fall under the Colorado statute, unless we're missing some key facts. Since PCNA will apparently refund his money should the latest fix not work, I would imagine that Porsche agrees as well.
I'm sure that most auto manufacturers realize that a certain percentage of their cars will be "lemoned" and chalk it up to the cost of doing business. It will be interesting to see what PCNA does with the car if they buy it back. BMW received some bad press several years ago when they supposedly "reconditioned" 7-Series models that were bought by BMW North America from unhappy customers and subsequently resold them at retail as certified pre-owned vehicles. I'm friendly with the sales manager of my local BMW dealership, and he acknowledged that they did indeed do that for several cars they sold.
I have a '95 C4 that has been absolutely bulletproof during the time I've owned it. Aside from the wiring harness recall, many would argue that the '95's (the first-year run for the 993) is a more robust car than the 96-98 model years since the '95's OBD I system doesn't readily detect carbon build-up and other issues like the later model year's OBD II cars do.
Skip, let us know how it turns out.
I'm sure that most auto manufacturers realize that a certain percentage of their cars will be "lemoned" and chalk it up to the cost of doing business. It will be interesting to see what PCNA does with the car if they buy it back. BMW received some bad press several years ago when they supposedly "reconditioned" 7-Series models that were bought by BMW North America from unhappy customers and subsequently resold them at retail as certified pre-owned vehicles. I'm friendly with the sales manager of my local BMW dealership, and he acknowledged that they did indeed do that for several cars they sold.
I have a '95 C4 that has been absolutely bulletproof during the time I've owned it. Aside from the wiring harness recall, many would argue that the '95's (the first-year run for the 993) is a more robust car than the 96-98 model years since the '95's OBD I system doesn't readily detect carbon build-up and other issues like the later model year's OBD II cars do.
Skip, let us know how it turns out.
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