Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating - Page3

Sep 30, 2008 7:19:06 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21152, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: Walter

Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

yes, real data as in: we are discussing about considering and weighing real data (ex: sport auto times) vs propaganda (ex: automaker X factory claims).

BTW, didn't Nissan pull a similar stunt with the original Nissan Skyline back in the day? they publicised a NBR lap time, and turns out they had used slicks on the car:x Its true when they say, history repeats it self

and humans seem to be the only animal that trips on the same stone twice

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Sep 30, 2008 7:21:36 PM

Nidge: Junior; Loc: UK; Posts: 57, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 12, 2006; Reply to: Walter

Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

Now that Porsche has recognised Nissan they have a couple of further options. Bring the 911 price down to more realistic price per performance levels or provide the Cayman with the power it deserves.

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Sep 30, 2008 7:30:08 PM

Walter: Pilot; Loc:; Posts: 453, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 20, 2006; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

Quote:
Carlos from Spain said:
yes, real data as in: we are discussing about considering and weighing real data (ex: sport auto times) vs propaganda (ex: automaker X factory claims).

BTW, didn't Nissan pull a similar stunt with the original Nissan Skyline back in the day? they publicised a NBR lap time, and turns out they used slicks on the car. Its true when they say, history repeats it self and humans seem to be the only animal that trips on the same stone twice

Propaganda? As in "our cars are so much better than that Datsun"?

edit: I have a feeling I will have to help you so I might just do it now.

Those lap times that soemone from Porsche mentioned,that's propaganda. Get it now?

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Sep 30, 2008 7:35:13 PM

eclou: Veteran; Loc: Texas , United States; Posts: 1182, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 4, 2006; Reply to: Walter

Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

Nissan has no play here. Porsche would not make such an accusation lightly - there are legal issues if it is unsubstantiated. Nissan knows the game is over

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Sep 30, 2008 7:37:39 PM

fritz: Rennteam VIP; Loc: BaWü , Germany; Posts: 10248, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 23, 2003; Reply to: nberry

Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

Quote:
nberry said:
The link does not work for me so I have no idea as to what Porsche "found".

Hi Nick, wouldn't want you to go through the rest of your life ill-informed.

Use this:

www.carsguide.news.com.au/site/motoring-news/story/porsche_accuses_nissan_of_cheating_at_nurburgring/

Quote:
nberry said:
But I do have a question. Given that the GT-R is directly competing with Porsche, why should we believe what Porsche has to say or found?

Because some of us know what power-to-weight ratios mean, are capable of thinking logically for ourselves, and smell a rat when figures do not match up as we would expect them to.

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Sep 30, 2008 7:45:58 PM

fritz: Rennteam VIP; Loc: BaWü , Germany; Posts: 10248, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 23, 2003; Reply to: Nidge

Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

Quote:
Nidge said:
Now that Porsche has recognised Nissan they have a couple of further options. Bring the 911 price down to more realistic price per performance levels or provide the Cayman with the power it deserves.

Nidge, you give your occupation as business owner.

Would you be inclined to bring the price of the products or services your business provides down to the same levels as a competitor who desperately needs to improve his image and is prepared to offer them at loss-leader prices to achieve this aim?

Even if you yourself were already working at full capacity?

For your own sake, think about it before you answer.

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Sep 30, 2008 7:58:24 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21152, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: Walter

Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

Quote:
Walter said:
Quote:
Carlos from Spain said:
yes, real data as in: we are discussing about considering and weighing real data (ex: sport auto times) vs propaganda (ex: automaker X factory claims).

BTW, didn't Nissan pull a similar stunt with the original Nissan Skyline back in the day? they publicised a NBR lap time, and turns out they used slicks on the car. Its true when they say, history repeats it self and humans seem to be the only animal that trips on the same stone twice

Propaganda? As in "our cars are so much better than that Datsun"?

edit: I have a feeling I will have to help you so I might just do it now.

Those lap times that soemone from Porsche mentioned,that's propaganda. Get it now?

Thank you for you help but its not really needed since we do not fall for propaganda since, and using Fritz post falls perfectly here:

Quote:
fritz said:
Because some of us know what power-to-weight ratios mean, are capable of thinking logically for ourselves, and smell a rat when figures do not match up as we would expect them to.

Porsche is only pointing out something that we already know (and will be proven if SA is able to get a Euro-spec, will that be propaganda too?), but if you want to keep believing Datsun's insulting marketing campaign were a 1800kg car with 480HP laps with 600HP+ light weight carbon fiber mid-engined supercars, its up to you.

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Sep 30, 2008 8:00:43 PM

fritz: Rennteam VIP; Loc: BaWü , Germany; Posts: 10248, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 23, 2003; Reply to: Greg81

Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

Quote:
Greg81 said:
I am surprised Porsche have commented in this official manner. Almost seems churlish and it says a lot about the impact the GTR has had on the motoring industry.

If you look more critically at that press report you'll realize that it wasn't really an official comment on behalf of the Porsche company.

It was just something a Porsche employee said in passing at a model introduction, probably as a result of being "needled" about the claimed GTR lap-time by the journalist.

Discussing the GTR wouldn't be on Porsche's agenda at the introduction of the new-gen 911, but journos know they need a slightly different angle to their colleagues to make their own report different - and they know how to get it.

We've seen a couple of other examples of this recently here on rennteam.

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Sep 30, 2008 8:12:09 PM

Walter: Pilot; Loc:; Posts: 453, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 20, 2006; Reply to: fritz

Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

Quote:
fritz said:
Because some of us know what power-to-weight ratios mean, are capable of thinking logically for ourselves, and smell a rat when figures do not match up as we would expect them to.

So what does power-to-weight ratio mean? For timed laps.

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Sep 30, 2008 8:28:57 PM

fritz: Rennteam VIP; Loc: BaWü , Germany; Posts: 10248, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 23, 2003; Reply to: Walter

Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

Quote:
Walter said:
Quote:
fritz said:
Because some of us know what power-to-weight ratios mean, are capable of thinking logically for ourselves, and smell a rat when figures do not match up as we would expect them to.

So what does power-to-weight ratio mean? For timed laps.

If you really need to ask what influence power-to-weight ratios have on lap times on the Nürburgring, then we should immediately stop discussing the subject.

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Sep 30, 2008 8:47:37 PM

Greg81: Newbie; Loc: UK; Posts: 23, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 2, 2005; Reply to: fritz

Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

Surely part of the Power-to-weight issue is to do with the GENUINE power output of the engine in the GTR. Quoted is around 480hp but most people (the press included) have suggested that the actual number is higher.

Is it not feasible that DCT and AWD can have a big impact on the cars lap?

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Sep 30, 2008 8:58:02 PM

Walter: Pilot; Loc:; Posts: 453, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 20, 2006; Reply to: Greg81

Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

Quote:
Greg81 said:
Is it not feasible that DCT and AWD can have a big impact on the cars lap?

No,only power output and weight.

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Sep 30, 2008 9:00:50 PM

fritz: Rennteam VIP; Loc: BaWü , Germany; Posts: 10248, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 23, 2003; Reply to: Greg81

Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

Quote:
Greg81 said:
Surely part of the Power-to-weight issue is to do with the GENUINE power output of the engine in the GTR. Quoted is around 480hp but most people (the press included) have suggested that the actual number is higher.

OK. But Euro type approval regs require the actual engine power to be within plus/minus 5 percent of declared figure, so Euro spec cars should in fact have maximum power of 504 hp when imports start, which is still not enough to get that heavy ship around the 'Ring in the claimed time.

Quote:
Greg81 said:
Is it not feasible that DCT and AWD can have a big impact on the cars lap?

Certainly, a sophisticated chassis and drive train are essential for optimal lap-times but Nissan has been so successful at hiding its phenomenally advanced know-how in this field up until now that the GTR's performance has taken everyone by surprise.

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Sep 30, 2008 9:10:58 PM

scubywrxr: Newbie; Loc: South Africa; Posts: 23, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 2, 2006; Reply to: fritz

Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

Firstly this was not an official Porsche statement accusing Nissan of cheating, it was some employee bantering after being needled. Secondly I dont think porsche really give a damn about GTR and Corvette times since its market is completely different. They can surely send a LM racer around with road tyres and take back the record no? Its more about driver pleasure and interaction in a rear drive chassis. Fact thatthey can make a rear engined car that can be in the 7m30s in a physics defying package is an achievement enough I say.. I would rather have a GT2 in my garage than a datsun or a vette but thats just me.. LP560 though is another story

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Sep 30, 2008 9:16:31 PM

Greg81: Newbie; Loc: UK; Posts: 23, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 2, 2005; Reply to: fritz

Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

Judging by the other thread referring to the DCT I will be surprised if my GTR finishes a full lap with the gearbox intact!

Fritz, silly question, does that rule regarding declared HP apply to hand-built engines? I assume it does?

My own take is that 7.29 is optimistic, 7.50s pesimistic. The real time somewhere in between. According to a thread on the GTR owners club forum EURO specs to be released tomorrow (not sure if this is official or otherwise).

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Sep 30, 2008 9:40:03 PM

U Boat Commander: Veteran; Loc: Los Angeles, CA; Posts: 1250, Gallery; Registered on: May 8, 2004; Reply to: Greg81

Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

I've been saying the GTR numbers are bogus for months and have been slammed for it on this board and other car forums. Finally, a little redemption.

7.54 for the GTR, isn't that roughly in line with NBR time for the 997S Mk II?

Nevermind, just answered my own question. The 997S Mk II lap time is 7:50, by HvS, Sport Auto, August 08.

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Sep 30, 2008 9:44:52 PM

fritz: Rennteam VIP; Loc: BaWü , Germany; Posts: 10248, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 23, 2003; Reply to: Greg81

Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

Quote:
Greg81 said:
Fritz, silly question, does that rule regarding declared HP apply to hand-built engines? I assume it does?

I am not aware that type approval laws differentiate between engines built by a robot or by a guy called Robert, or whatever.

I'm guessing, but I doubt that there too many cars in the "supercar" class whose engines are not hand-built, because the production numbers would generally not be high enough to justify the investment.

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Sep 30, 2008 9:50:56 PM

Ferdie: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Europe , Germany; Posts: 8234, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 2, 2004; Reply to: fritz

Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

Quote:
fritz said:
Quote:
Walter said:
Quote:
fritz said:
Because some of us know what power-to-weight ratios mean, are capable of thinking logically for ourselves, and smell a rat when figures do not match up as we would expect them to.

So what does power-to-weight ratio mean? For timed laps.

If you really need to ask what influence power-to-weight ratios have on lap times on the Nürburgring, then we should immediately stop discussing the subject.

Yes, further discussion might be a bit futile.

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Sep 30, 2008 9:55:05 PM

Ferdie: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Europe , Germany; Posts: 8234, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 2, 2004; Reply to: Greg81

Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

Quote:
Greg81 said:
Judging by the other thread referring to the DCT I will be surprised if my GTR finishes a full lap with the gearbox intact!

That is the GT-R's achilles heel in my opinion, the advantage the car gained over the 997 TT was partly due to the later's rather poor performance on the NBR, partly due to a certainly more aggressive set-up for suspension and possibly even drivetrain on the former. I do not wish any Nissan owner to experience these problems though.

It is somewhat amusing to see that the performance the GT-R provides is solely seen in comparison to the TT, its main target. However nobody complains about the price-to-performance ratio on a Ferrari, Lamborghini or Corvette Z06. How come..?

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Oct 1, 2008 12:45:53 AM

Walter: Pilot; Loc:; Posts: 453, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 20, 2006; Reply to: Ferdie

Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

Quote:
Ferdie said:
Quote:
fritz said:
If you really need to ask what influence power-to-weight ratios have on lap times on the Nürburgring, then we should immediately stop discussing the subject.

Yes, further discussion might be a bit futile.

I actually thought that you would atleast give me some examples to prove your point. But simply ignoring me? You don't even want to discuss this with me? I actually feel a little insulted.

But that's ok. There's really nothing to discuss about. Even the real data proves you wrong more often than you would think

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Oct 1, 2008 2:31:50 AM

edz: Rennteam Pro; Loc: South Orange County; Posts: 2022, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 11, 2005; Reply to: fritz

Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

I think in the beginning Porsche did not give a crap about the GTR's claims and it's popularity but it got to a point that Porsche engineers started to wonder. How many years of technology and engineering behind the legendry 911 Turbo and now here comes Godzilla out of no where and takes the title away So with thought I suppose Porsche decided to give the GTR a shot themselves. I still don't care my loyalty remains with Porsche as always.

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Oct 1, 2008 4:57:48 AM

Erik: Co-Pilot; Loc:; Posts: 172, Gallery; Registered on: May 21, 2002; Reply to: MKSGR

Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

Screwing with ringtimes is not something to be taken lightly. Nissan made a huge mistake thinking they could pull one over everyone's heads like this. Really screwy.

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Oct 1, 2008 5:16:58 AM

SadoTorque: Junior; Loc: Texas; Posts: 87, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 19, 2005; Reply to: Erik

Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

Whoever made this statement about the GTR, better be someone of importance and if so, not blowing wind up our skirts, because if the Marketing director at Porsche thought that this might be a clever way to boost sale is going to get a [beep] can of trouble if this is not substantiated through the main car press. The car community will bury Porsche if this ends up being just a way to stroke Porsche owner's egos. I want Porsche to make better car and not excuses. When I think of Porsches, I think of no equal in racing pedigree. Not bitchy Germans who don't know how to turn lemons into lemonade.

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Oct 1, 2008 6:18:40 AM

andrea: Rennteam Master; Loc: Italy, Pordenone , Italy; Posts: 3569, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 24, 2003; Reply to: KresoF1

Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

Quote:
KresoF1 said:
Yes, with normal setup LP560-4 is 0,19s(!!) slower on Variano then 997 GT2. BUT, with Sport setup Lp560-4 is almost 0.7s faster then 997 Gt2 as you will see in future issue of QR...

Really?A new test of lambo lp560 by quattroruote?This time with sport setup so...

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Oct 1, 2008 10:05:58 AM

reginos: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Nicosia , Cyprus; Posts: 12130, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 20, 2005; Reply to: SadoTorque

Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

Quote:
SadoTorque said:
Whoever made this statement about the GTR, better be someone of importance and if so, not blowing wind up our skirts, because if the Marketing director at Porsche thought that this might be a clever way to boost sale is going to get a [beep] can of trouble if this is not substantiated through the main car press. The car community will bury Porsche if this ends up being just a way to stroke Porsche owner's egos. I want Porsche to make better car and not excuses. When I think of Porsches, I think of no equal in racing pedigree. Not bitchy Germans who don't know how to turn lemons into lemonade.

Porsche's version of NBR times must be correct with 99%+ level of confidence, because other independent people (here on rennteam also) who spend time on the Nordschleife, expressed doubts as to the viability of the 7.29 given GT-R's weight and other characteristics.

But even if that super-time was correct, new problems with the GT-R have started emerging (like overheating, gearbox failures, chewed up tyres after a couple of laps etc), that IMO have already tainted its reputation and have made all the marketing hype that accompanied it, apprear exaggerated to say the least.

Let's face it germany still makes the best cars.
Even "new post-audi lamborghini", a very serious Ferrari challenger, can be considered german too.

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Oct 1, 2008 10:10:45 AM

Italo: Veteran; Loc: UK , United Kingdom; Posts: 1055, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 29, 2007; Reply to: reginos

Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

Quote:
reginos said:
Quote:
SadoTorque said:
Whoever made this statement about the GTR, better be someone of importance and if so, not blowing wind up our skirts, because if the Marketing director at Porsche thought that this might be a clever way to boost sale is going to get a [beep] can of trouble if this is not substantiated through the main car press. The car community will bury Porsche if this ends up being just a way to stroke Porsche owner's egos. I want Porsche to make better car and not excuses. When I think of Porsches, I think of no equal in racing pedigree. Not bitchy Germans who don't know how to turn lemons into lemonade.

Porsche's version of NBR times must be correct with 99%+ level of confidence, because other independent people (here on rennteam also) who spend time of the Nordschleife, expressed doubts as to the viability of the 7.29 given GT-R's weight and other characteristics.

But even if that super-time was correct, new problems with the GT-R have started emerging (like overheating, gearbox failures, chewed up tyres after a couple of laps etc), that IMO have already tainted its reputation and have made all the marketing hype that accompanied it, apprear exaggerated to say the least.

Let's face it germany still makes the best cars.
Even "new post-audi lamborghini", a very serious Ferrari challenger, can be considered german too.

+1

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Oct 1, 2008 12:24:15 PM

boytronic: Veteran; Loc: London , United Kingdom; Posts: 961, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 5, 2005; Reply to: Italo

Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

Is it just me, or is there NO material evidence that Porsche has made any claim apart from this one link from a 3rd party website:

http://carsguide.news.com.au/site/motori...at_nurburgring/

I cannot find anything on Porsche's official website - so where is this "official" claim?!

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Oct 1, 2008 2:08:18 PM

amjf088: Co-Pilot; Loc: Toronto, Canada , Canada; Posts: 256, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 6, 2005; Reply to: boytronic

Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

Exactly, this is not an official statement. The best I can tell is that the comments are attributed to a Porsche employee speaking in a non-official capacity. Much ado about not much.

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Oct 1, 2008 2:17:52 PM

AUM: Veteran; Loc: Germany; Posts: 1203, Gallery; Registered on: May 2, 2006; Reply to: amjf088

Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

I doubt Porsche would officially sanction such a press release. It makes them sound desperate and contradicts the fact that in all independent tests the GTR laps faster than the Turbo.

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Oct 1, 2008 2:43:23 PM

SoCalHoosier: Veteran; Loc: California , United States; Posts: 896, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 13, 2003; Reply to: SadoTorque

Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

Quote:
SadoTorque said:
Whoever made this statement about the GTR, better be someone of importance and if so, not blowing wind up our skirts, because if the Marketing director at Porsche thought that this might be a clever way to boost sale is going to get a [beep] can of trouble if this is not substantiated through the main car press. The car community will bury Porsche if this ends up being just a way to stroke Porsche owner's egos. I want Porsche to make better car and not excuses. When I think of Porsches, I think of no equal in racing pedigree. Not bitchy Germans who don't know how to turn lemons into lemonade.

I wish Porsche spent this much time on their own R&D so they wouldn't have to worry about this kind of crap to begin with.

Stop giving us fluff disguised in acronyms and get back to building dominant cars!

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