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    Re: Belgian F1 Grand Prix at Spa

    @WAY: that's only partially accurate. You're absolutely correct saying that current F1 drivers all think Lewis was wrong BUT not all people in F1 agree. Pat Symonds of Renault (IMO a smart man whom I respect highly) thinks differently. Here's an interesting article on this:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7611152.stm

    As the article implies, I think the issue is that, even if Lewis did get some small advantage warranting a penalty of some sort, the only penalty available in the last 5 laps of the race was a 'deemed' 25 second penalty which effectively stripped Lewis of the race win even though Lewis would have won that race comfortably if he had delayed overtaking till the next corner. The outcome of the penalty is really harsh and offends one's sense of natural justice (as the article eloquently puts it). It's a really tough break for Lewis. Still, this controversy can be debated endlessly. No doubt there are plenty of people who will disagree. I can respect that but none of the debate will change the outcome. I also doubt whether the appeal will be successful since both sides of this debate can be argued strongly.

    Just my 2 cents

    Re: Belgian F1 Grand Prix at Spa

    Quote:
    WAY said:
    The current F1 drivers have spoken. Everyone is saying that FIA is correct and Lewis would not have been able to overtake Kimi in that lap if it wasn't for the incident. So the only people who disagrees are former drivers. Now who do you think is right, those on the track at that time or people who last drove an F1 car 20-30 years ago?????



    Lauda once said that a monkey could drive a modern F1 car. So Jaguar let him drive one of their cars. He spun out twice and was 15 seconds off the pace.

    They were () great drivers but it's not like everything they say is true.

    Re: Belgian F1 Grand Prix at Spa

    It's not really a matter of who thinks what.
    People, including experts etc, will always disagree on FIA rulings.
    The FIA might have been right in punishing LH for his chikane pass, butI think the bigger problem is the lack of consistency.
    One race it's ok to drive out in front of a competitor in the pitlane, next race it's not ok to overtake, give the position back and overtake again.

    I think they should either stick 110% to the FIA rules ALL the time, or show some brains when they judge the incidents.
    Right now they are caught in the middle.

    Re: Belgian F1 Grand Prix at Spa

    @WAY: You forgot to add that 'everyone' i.e. a few of the F1 drivers also said that they thought the retrospective time penalty was too harsh:

    Hamilton penalty didn't fit the crime: http://www.itv-f1.com/news_article.aspx?id=43902

    (And also Ralf Schumacher as far as I know is a recent F1 driver.)

    Re: Belgian F1 Grand Prix at Spa

    Quote:
    Dr. Phil said:
    It's not really a matter of who thinks what.
    People, including experts etc, will always disagree on FIA rulings.
    The FIA might have been right in punishing LH for his chikane pass, butI think the bigger problem is the lack of consistency.
    One race it's ok to drive out in front of a competitor in the pitlane, next race it's not ok to overtake, give the position back and overtake again.

    I think they should either stick 110% to the FIA rules ALL the time, or show some brains when they judge the incidents.
    Right now they are caught in the middle.



    Couldn't agree more. This is the crucial point that ought to be addressed. As to how to achieve it, having the same three stewards making the decisions throughout the year will help in applying the rules consistently.

    Re: Belgian F1 Grand Prix at Spa

    Easy, the alternative punishment would have been to give Lewis a stop go penalty during the race, which would have also been 25 seconds. Yes, no doubt Lewis would have overtaken Kimi sooner or later, but the fact is that he didn't. To the rest, I don't agree that Massa should have been punished with the same penalty for the reason that his "crime" was not his fault (it's the team's fault) and he did not gain an advantage by doing so whereas Lewis did. He may have broken rule, but doesn't mean that every rule should have the same punishment!

    Re: Belgian F1 Grand Prix at Spa

    Quote:
    YorkshireExpat said:


    (And also Ralf Schumacher as far as I know is a recent F1 driver.)



    Well , lets just say , ""he had a go at it""

    Re: Belgian F1 Grand Prix at Spa

    The media has finally picked up on the point I made about four days ago..

    http://www.planetf1.com/story/0,18954,3213_4134454,00.html

    The merits of the penalty can be debated endlessly on both sides, but this fact for me more than anything says the process stinks and the FIA is attempting to corrupt the sport. If indeed they have not already done so.

    Re: Belgian F1 Grand Prix at Spa

    Quote:
    reginos said:
    Quote:
    rosso nuvola said:
    I used to thing that Alonso was a arrogant son of a B, but i was wrong he is actually ok , i mean he is what he is , he frontal in what he says and does ...

    Now HAMilton prentends to be this nice kid , but he actulaly is just arrogant in thinking he is the only smart guy in this planet... " i was hoping for the rain becausa i know how to deal with it" " Kimi pushed me out"

    http://br.youtube.com/watch?v=dWNN5W_B-Zk





    Even if HAM was arrogant, and IMO he is not, he has the ability to match with an excellent record in F3, GP2 and now F1.

    Massa's version of events both in Valencia and Spa was IMO very arrogant, especially by someone who wasn't directly involved in the latter incident.

    Such arrogance coming from a very mediocre driver who got a seat with the best(?) team just because his manager happened to be Jean Todt's son, is too hard to bear!



    Do you really think that a professional F1 team would take a driver just because he has connections???

    I wonder why the UK press didn't make a big deal about Ham saiyng that Raik doesn't have balls , or that both weaber and Trully spoke out and said that Ham gained an advantage buy cuting the chicane , wich is preatty obvious at least to me
    Ham pretends to be this smart guy but then he opens his mouth and there it goes atacking a Ferrari driver on such a way before the Monza granprix is like shooting himself on the foot , lets see what happens this weekend....

    Re: Belgian F1 Grand Prix at Spa

    Quote:
    rosso nuvola said:
    Quote:
    reginos said:
    Quote:
    rosso nuvola said:
    I used to thing that Alonso was a arrogant son of a B, but i was wrong he is actually ok , i mean he is what he is , he frontal in what he says and does ...

    Now HAMilton prentends to be this nice kid , but he actulaly is just arrogant in thinking he is the only smart guy in this planet... " i was hoping for the rain becausa i know how to deal with it" " Kimi pushed me out"

    http://br.youtube.com/watch?v=dWNN5W_B-Zk





    Even if HAM was arrogant, and IMO he is not, he has the ability to match with an excellent record in F3, GP2 and now F1.

    Massa's version of events both in Valencia and Spa was IMO very arrogant, especially by someone who wasn't directly involved in the latter incident.

    Such arrogance coming from a very mediocre driver who got a seat with the best(?) team just because his manager happened to be Jean Todt's son, is too hard to bear!



    Do you really think that a professional F1 team would take a driver just because he has connections???

    I wonder why the UK press didn't make a big deal about Ham saiyng that Raik doesn't have balls , or that both weaber and Trully spoke out and said that Ham gained an advantage buy cuting the chicane , wich is preatty obvious at least to me
    Ham pretends to be this smart guy but then he opens his mouth and there it goes atacking a Ferrari driver on such a way before the Monza granprix is like shooting himself on the foot , lets see what happens this weekend....



    Nepotism is present in all activities from politics to corporate appointments, so why would someone not believe that Massa was chosen because of the Todt-son connection?

    I didn't know HAM said this about Raikkonen, of which I am a fan. If he did, it was very stupid of him!
    Hamilton in the interviews has a sort of "schoolboy enthusiasm" and sometimes he gets carried away.

    Re: Belgian F1 Grand Prix at Spa

    Quote:
    reginos said:
    I didn't know HAM said this about Raikkonen, of which I am a fan. If he did, it was very stupid of him!
    Hamilton in the interviews has a sort of "schoolboy enthusiasm" and sometimes he gets carried away.



    Don't worry, he said it for the team.

    Re: Belgian F1 Grand Prix at Spa

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    reginos said:
    I didn't know HAM said this about Raikkonen, of which I am a fan. If he did, it was very stupid of him!
    Hamilton in the interviews has a sort of "schoolboy enthusiasm" and sometimes he gets carried away.



    Don't worry, he said it for the team.



    HAHAHA! Exactly

    Re: Belgian F1 Grand Prix at Spa

    Quote:
    rosso nuvola said:
    Do you really think that a professional F1 team would take a driver just because he has connections???




    No, the real question usually is "does he have money or funding in some way?".
    Don't be misled into believing that F1 drivers are the best in the world. They are exceptional, but rest assured that there are drivers out there who have more talent than both Kimi, Hamilton and Schumi who simply do not have the connections and/or funding to get a seat.

    Look at some of the past drivers of the lesser teams. Unknown B-pilots who happned to have a rich dad, or owned a picture of some bigtime CEO porking an intern. That was the only way in hell they would ever get into an F1 seat.
    Their talents alone probably wouldn't take them past a karting championship.

    Thankfully the teams DO hire talent for the sake of talent - because they see a potential to make money on them, naturally, but still.

    Re: Belgian F1 Grand Prix at Spa

    yes all true , but we were not talking about drivers with money...

    Re: Belgian F1 Grand Prix at Spa

    Reginos don't be fooled , HAm is a "two face kid" he puts the nice one when are cameras around...

    All F1 drivers have signed a document were it is clear now that no driver can cut an "s" and atack in the next curve , ham has signed to.
    All the drivers in F1 don't go well with Hamilton that must be a record in recent times , the last episode has the parade truck had to wait for him when all the drivers here on time, he came late didn't sad sorry, didn't go well with the other drives...

    Re: Belgian F1 Grand Prix at Spa

    Quote:
    Q. You say you are confident for the coming races, but how much is the shadow of Massa a concern for you?

    LH: Not really. I think Massa he is on the back foot and he is the one that has to work damn hard to keep up with me. We do have a close race, a close battle, but I feel I am in a very strong position. I feel I have got a great car and we are going to continue going down the same route we have been going down, and continue to knock at them and take points from them, and improve our reliability in all areas.

    I feel like I am coming away from a win, and moving on to the next race. Normally I would be sitting here and you would be saying, 'how does it feel, it must feel great with the momentum from the last win.' And that is how I feel. I don't feel any different from when we normally win. I don't feel at all disheartened about what happened and I think I have been very, very fortunate. I have got a lot of support behind me and I feel great, and I know this weekend we can win. That is what we are here to do.

    Q. Was part of Spa that mentally you thought you had done enough to let him past you, but because the Ferrari had no grip it could not get past you?

    LH: I don't think he had no grip. We had the same amount of grip.

    Q. But he was braking much earlier than you?

    LH: Well, that's his driving, that's all. That is how he drives. If you don't have the balls to brake late then that is your problem! At the end of the day, in those situations it is the driver who can feel the grip more and put the car more on the edge. And I know I am great in those conditions. I felt the grip more than him, I knew where to place my car and I did place it in different positions to him and I found the grip.



    http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/70475

    Re: Belgian F1 Grand Prix at Spa

    I have said it from the very beginning, that LH is a snake. Arrogant as hell when push comes to shove.
    On the other hand, most other competitive F1 pilots are, too.
    Kimi doesn't give a damn about anything or anybody else but himself and perhaps his closest friends and family.
    Massa sticks his nose in matters that dont concern him just because his giant ego cant stay locked up in that tiny body of his.
    Most top F1 drivers are egocentric a-holes, and they probably have to be to gain that edge over the competition.
    I remember DC sacking his former GF, so that he could focus on the upcoming GPs. (Look, three abbr. in one sentence..argh!)

    Remember Arnold back in the day when he was making a comeback at Mr. Olympia. He was the greatest selfcentered moron on this Planet, and he did everything possible in the days leading up to the big event, to psyche his opponents and make them feel inferior.
    He won, I might add.

    I believe the same applies in F1 and any sport.
    Boxing is well known for it - but we used to see more of it in the old F1 days.
    Now they are regular schoolboys

    Re: Belgian F1 Grand Prix at Spa

    Well said.

    Out of curiosity, why can't LH say he was better than Kimi in the rain that day -he plainly was. It may rile Kimi, but that's no bad thing for us watching F1.

    Re: Belgian F1 Grand Prix at Spa

    The Ferraris have a tire temperature problem , that is why Ham catch Kimi so fast, besides Ham had a spin at the begining of the race , he was very lucky...

    Re: Belgian F1 Grand Prix at Spa

    Fair enough, so his car/driver combination were better than Kimi's. BTW Kimi also spun whilst in the lead (after the chicane incident) and got away with it, only difference he followed it with a second.

    Re: Belgian F1 Grand Prix at Spa

    Quote:
    ezzie said:
    Well said.

    Out of curiosity, why can't LH say he was better than Kimi in the rain that day -he plainly was. It may rile Kimi, but that's no bad thing for us watching F1.



    LH can say whatever he pleases. It's not up to me to censor him.
    Plus he would be right saying that he performs better than many other drivers, including Kimi on many occasions.
    It's just a matter of taste and temperament, I guess.
    While it may be god entertainment to be Muhammed Ali-like in your demeanor, it is equally distasteful IMO.
    I like selfconfidence, but there is a fine line between being selfconfident and being cocky or plain dumb.
    Saying that Kimi lacks balls is like saying Schumi drives slow in the wet.
    It simply shows you lack either knowledge or class.
    Either way, I prefer classy over cocky any day.

    Kimi isnt exactly a lovable, warmhearted person himself, but at least he is usually very objective and diplomatic when it comes to commenting on other drivers. Except for that entertaining, but hardly classy moment when he dryly exclaimed he was "taking a sh!t", during Schumacher's goodbye celebration

    Re: Belgian F1 Grand Prix at Spa

    Can't disagree with any of that.

    Re: Belgian F1 Grand Prix at Spa

    During the last two races FIA have clearly showed how biased they are.

    Belgium

    Hamilton cuts the chicane, give the position back to Kimi.

    Mclaren calls race control and ask it the situation is okey, race control gives a thumb up.

    Result: 12 sec penalty after race.
    Italy

    Massa buts chicane while overtaking Rosberg.

    Race control personally contact Massa and tells him to give position back to Rosberg.

    Result: No penalty.

    Now tell me FIA doesn't stand for Ferrari's International assistance. In court on the 22nd September they will have no choice but to give Hamilton back his Spa victory.

    Re: Belgian F1 Grand Prix at Spa

    Quote:
    Emperor said:
    During the last two races FIA have clearly showed how biased they are.

    Belgium

    Hamilton cuts the chicane, give the position back to Kimi.

    Mclaren calls race control and ask it the situation is okey, race control gives a thumb up.

    Result: 12 sec penalty after race.
    Italy

    Massa buts chicane while overtaking Rosberg.

    Race control personally contact Massa and tells him to give position back to Rosberg.

    Result: No penalty.

    Now tell me FIA doesn't stand for Ferrari's International assistance. In court on the 22nd September they will have no choice but to give Hamilton back his Spa victory.



    No penalty is given in the last 5 laps of a race. The penalty (25 seconds) will always be given after the race.

    Re: Belgian F1 Grand Prix at Spa

    http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=HWeb4OfSv0k

    This is what alonso did in the last lap after his pit stop, incredible!

    Alonso is the best driver i have no doubt.

    Re: Belgian F1 Grand Prix at Spa

    Fairplay....that was some lap.

    Re: Belgian F1 Grand Prix at Spa

    Alonsos lap was very nice indeed. Looks very much like he was on a different tyre setup than the others, hence the enourmous difference in speed.

    Re: Belgian F1 Grand Prix at Spa

    Hamilton has lost his appeal:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7627941.stm

    I am interested to read the reasoning for the decision.

    Re: Belgian F1 Grand Prix at Spa

    Seems they skirted the need to say whether or not Hamilton had given back the place sufficiently - instead they said the penalty was in lieu of a drive through one and therefore not admissable to appeal... nicely side stepped me thinks

    Re: Belgian F1 Grand Prix at Spa

    Exactly Inadmissibility is a great way to avoid having to answer the more prickly, subjective issues as to whether Hamilton sufficiently handed back the advantage he had gained by cutting the chicane...

    I rather liked the argument used by McLaren's counsel, Mark Philips QC, when he argued that this was an appeal against a 25 second drive through penalty that was retrospectively applied by the stewards rather than one imposed during the race. Clearly, there was an exercise of discretion made after the race yet the appeals tribunal held that this judgment call was no different to a decision made during the race to impose a drive through penalty. If the appeals tribunal takes that line of approach, there's really little one can do to counter that IMO.

    Still, we now know the outcome. So I hope we can just get back to racing (I think it's never great for the sport when matters are decided by a court rather than out on the track)...

     
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