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Re: 997.2 vs Rivals
The new 997.2 seems to have raised the bar, but that comparo misses the Americans, which on a performance-basis are up there too. You may prefer one package over the other, but they are players. I switched from a 996 to a Vette C6 because the CS was no competition. The new 997.2 CS may be - we shall see.
Re: 997.2 vs Rivals
good show porsche... but i cannot help feeling this is one of those situations where the magazines are only too happy to proclaim the newest car the best (as long as the car is genuinely good, and the praise can be somehow justified or reasoned), in a bid to make the advertisers happy.
R8 was showered with praise
GT-R showered with praise
and now FL 997 praised
sure they're all very good cars... but you know what i mean?
or am i just being cynical?
R8 was showered with praise
GT-R showered with praise
and now FL 997 praised
sure they're all very good cars... but you know what i mean?
or am i just being cynical?
Re: 997.2 vs Rivals
Quote:
hesperus said:
good show porsche... but i cannot help feeling this is one of those situations where the magazines are only too happy to proclaim the newest car the best (as long as the car is genuinely good, and the praise can be somehow justified or reasoned), in a bid to make the advertisers happy.
R8 was showered with praise
GT-R showered with praise
and now FL 997 praised
sure they're all very good cars... but you know what i mean?
or am i just being cynical?
Well, there is always a commercial element but all cars on the list are advertising contributors.
The 997.1 was also rated top on this Autocar list although it wasn't the newest car.
Moreover, two of the cars are British icons (A-M and Jaguar) but still they don't fare as well as the two Germans which in my mind indicates a good degree of objectivity and fair play on behalf of the magazine.
Jul 7, 2008 11:30:32 AM
- Georgie997S
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Re: 997.2 vs Rivals
Quote:You have a point there... But personally speaking I would never consider 997.2 being a new car in the market... A completely new 911 is the one that won't be having a 997 code. The whole "direct injection thing" is just marketing in my opinion. PDK could be a good reason to separate 997.1 from 997.2... Also FL in THAT case has nothing to do with the real meaning of the words. Where are the face lifted features anyway?????? LED lights are not considered as a facelift are they...? If we think about what PAG has really created here is certainly not what people expected. PAG has made people that had bought a 997.1 lose money for a bunch of led lights after they decide to sell their cars!!!!
hesperus said:
good show porsche... but i cannot help feeling this is one of those situations where the magazines are only too happy to proclaim the newest car the best (as long as the car is genuinely good, and the praise can be somehow justified or reasoned), in a bid to make the advertisers happy.
R8 was showered with praise
GT-R showered with praise
and now FL 997 praised
sure they're all very good cars... but you know what i mean?
or am i just being cynical?
. Let's face it. 997.1 and 997.2 are the same cars with the same performance apart from the fact that the second version has more led lights and a PDK option and it is heavier... I think that PAG SHOULD have offered the X51 kit as standard in the 997.2 version. If they wanted to make a real difference.
Jul 7, 2008 12:10:14 PM
- Neil Schneider
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Jul 7, 2008 12:22:22 PM
- MMD
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Re: 997.2 vs Rivals
Quote:
Georgie997S said:
Let's face it. 997.1 and 997.2 are the same cars with the same performance apart from the fact that the second version has more led lights and a PDK option and it is heavier...
No problem facing it for me. Human beings are typically irrational. Modern marketing psychology has fully exploited this.
Superficial changes that are _easily_ perceived as "better," create a powerful, probably hormonal, "must-have" reaction which spurs people to buy.
Everybody here with a 997.1 is trying to compensate, in our own ways, for the "inadequacy" which has been imposed upon us (IMO, of course).
Jul 7, 2008 12:31:40 PM
- Georgie997S
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Re: 997.2 vs Rivals
Quote:Maybe you're right... But I personally didn't expect such poor changes from PAG really. They haven't bothered at all... All they thought was that they should find a cheap way to keep their sales constant. People expects more from PAG really. This claimed "FL" version is just a marketing trick to me. It is too soon to be sure about that, but I'm afraid that it is so. Let's wait and see. This version will "fade" in no time. Also I am really curious to see the result from a race with those 2 versions of 997s!!!! Things will be clear enough then. I still believe that 997.2 SHOULD be equipped with X51 kit as standard... THIS is a difference then along with direct injection. Imagine the car with 400 horses... and also imagine the power/weight ratio... Who would buy any other sports car then?
Neil Schneider said:
I don't agree. They made a lot of significant changes, including engine. I want to see what the American Mags say in a month or two.
Jul 7, 2008 12:36:21 PM
- Alex_997TT
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Jul 7, 2008 3:50:48 PM
- reginos
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Re: 997.2 vs Rivals
Quote:
Georgie997S said:Quote:You have a point there... But personally speaking I would never consider 997.2 being a new car in the market... A completely new 911 is the one that won't be having a 997 code. The whole "direct injection thing" is just marketing in my opinion. PDK could be a good reason to separate 997.1 from 997.2... Also FL in THAT case has nothing to do with the real meaning of the words. Where are the face lifted features anyway?????? LED lights are not considered as a facelift are they...? If we think about what PAG has really created here is certainly not what people expected. PAG has made people that had bought a 997.1 lose money for a bunch of led lights after they decide to sell their cars!!!!
hesperus said:
good show porsche... but i cannot help feeling this is one of those situations where the magazines are only too happy to proclaim the newest car the best (as long as the car is genuinely good, and the praise can be somehow justified or reasoned), in a bid to make the advertisers happy.
R8 was showered with praise
GT-R showered with praise
and now FL 997 praised
sure they're all very good cars... but you know what i mean?
or am i just being cynical?
@Georgie, they've given 385HP on the S which is more than the pre-FL X51 powerkit(381HP). So there is your standard (free) powerkit on the 997.2.
By coincidence I've just driven the car (manual) this afternoon and I can tell you it is much much improved than the 997.1 in all areas from engine to ride to gearchange quality to composure under acceleration and cornering. However, a 997.1 ownwer who wants to stay with Porsche should wait for the 998 model.
Porsche follows a policy of continuous improvement and the FL is not in the sense of some cosmetic changes only but many things change that make the car better. From all the years I drive Porsche, IMO the newer one is always the better one within a model range. This doesn't mean that somebody should spend the extra money for the new model because the "old" one will be good enough for many years to come.
Re: 997.2 vs Rivals
Quote:
However, a 997.1 ownwer who wants to stay with Porsche should wait for the 998 model.
That begs two questions. You say that the improvements to the car are marked, but are you saying they are not enough for a 997.1 owner?
Next Fall 09 my car will be about ready to change out and a 997.2 is one option, along with the new M3 Coupe/Cab, Jaguar XKR which should have the DFI 5 liter engine by then, the Aston, and maybe the Maserati Gran Turismo. (I would love to include the Ferrari California but that will be too expensive and have too long a waiting list).
So when will 998 (or whatever the real project # is) appear, and should I buy a 997.2 in the meantime or just hang on to what I have for x more years, or buy an "interim" choice?
MTIA
Re: 997.2 vs Rivals
Quote:
Le Chef said:Quote:
However, a 997.1 ownwer who wants to stay with Porsche should wait for the 998 model.
That begs two questions. You say that the improvements to the car are marked, but are you saying they are not enough for a 997.1 owner?
Next Fall 09 my car will be about ready to change out and a 997.2 is one option, along with the new M3 Coupe/Cab, Jaguar XKR which should have the DFI 5 liter engine by then, the Aston, and maybe the Maserati Gran Turismo. (I would love to include the Ferrari California but that will be too expensive and have too long a waiting list).
So when will 998 (or whatever the real project # is) appear, and should I buy a 997.2 in the meantime or just hang on to what I have for x more years, or buy an "interim" choice?
MTIA
It's all a matter of money IMO and how often you want to change your cars.
If you have a year old 997.1 IMO it is better to wait for the 998. If your 997.1 is an early one 04-05 and you want to change to new car anyway, then definitely yes the 997.2 drives much much better even in manual that I tried.
Jul 7, 2008 5:46:34 PM
- Silver Bullet
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Re: 997.2 vs Rivals
Quote:
Georgie997S said:You have a point there... But personally speaking I would never consider 997.2 being a new car in the market... A completely new 911 is the one that won't be having a 997 code. The whole "direct injection thing" is just marketing in my opinion. PDK could be a good reason to separate 997.1 from 997.2... Also FL in THAT case has nothing to do with the real meaning of the words. Where are the face lifted features anyway?????? LED lights are not considered as a facelift are they...? If we think about what PAG has really created here is certainly not what people expected. PAG has made people that had bought a 997.1 lose money for a bunch of led lights after they decide to sell their cars!!!!
I'm not sure I agree: this is a considerably different engine. The integrated dry dump has been improved, and the rear main seal is totally redesigned so that the leak ought to be completely fixed.
DI is not to be scoffed at: it is not easy to get more power and better economy out of the M96/97 design.
There are also some potentially exciting suspension options for North American cars.
Sure, PDK and LEDs are the major outward signals of something new, but the MkII 997 is also considerably new under the hood as well.
Jul 7, 2008 6:15:24 PM
- Le Chef
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Change that's not just skin deep
The significance of 997.2 is that the major changes are beneath the surface. The engines are almost completely brand new units, you get a substantial increase in power, PDK is a significant change, SPASM is new for everyone, the return of LSD is great for track drivers. In fact calling 997.2 a facelift is a misnomer - it's much more than that.
Re: Change that's not just skin deep
Quote:
Le Chef said:
The significance of 997.2 is that the major changes are beneath the surface. The engines are almost completely brand new units, you get a substantial increase in power, PDK is a significant change, SPASM is new for everyone, the return of LSD is great for track drivers. In fact calling 997.2 a facelift is a misnomer - it's much more than that.
Exactly. Nicely put too.
You can tell the Porsche designers, engineers, development and manufacturing are working full time all the time. At least they're taking those profits and running the company like it's supposed to be run to stay on top of things.
My only "objection" (other than the GT1 engine scare) is that they don't include some conservative but passionate _Italian_ designers and give them lots of influence over the styling details.
Re: Change that's not just skin deep
Quote:
Le Chef said:
The significance of 997.2 is that the major changes are beneath the surface. The engines are almost completely brand new units, you get a substantial increase in power, PDK is a significant change, SPASM is new for everyone, the return of LSD is great for track drivers. In fact calling 997.2 a facelift is a misnomer - it's much more than that.
I agree. PAG did a commendable job w/ 997.2.
Jul 7, 2008 10:29:49 PM
- JoeRockhead
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Re: Change that's not just skin deep
One thing that gets overlooked with Porsche when people drop performance numbers is MPG and CO2. I think Porsche should be commended along with BMW in continuing to increase the power of their engines and reducing consumption and emissions at the same time. I drove to the cottage and back this weekend, around 300 miles round trip, and I averaged 25 mpg while exceeding the speed limit by a reasonable amount. Not bad for a 355HP car.
Jul 7, 2008 11:04:55 PM
- ADias
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Re: Change that's not just skin deep
Quote:
JoeRockhead said:
One thing that gets overlooked with Porsche when people drop performance numbers is MPG and CO2. I think Porsche should be commended along with BMW in continuing to increase the power of their engines and reducing consumption and emissions at the same time. I drove to the cottage and back this weekend, around 300 miles round trip, and I averaged 25 mpg while exceeding the speed limit by a reasonable amount. Not bad for a 355HP car.
Actually peak HP has little to do with economy - it's how low you can drive it and low end torque. My C6 (w/ 436HP and 428lbft) can do 31MPG driven at 65MPH. The new 997.2 engine has more low-end torque and can therefore be driven more economically.
Jul 7, 2008 11:57:05 PM
- JoeRockhead
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Re: Change that's not just skin deep
Quote:
ADias said:Quote:
JoeRockhead said:
One thing that gets overlooked with Porsche when people drop performance numbers is MPG and CO2. I think Porsche should be commended along with BMW in continuing to increase the power of their engines and reducing consumption and emissions at the same time. I drove to the cottage and back this weekend, around 300 miles round trip, and I averaged 25 mpg while exceeding the speed limit by a reasonable amount. Not bad for a 355HP car.
Actually peak HP has little to do with economy - it's how low you can drive it and low end torque. My C6 (w/ 436HP and 428lbft) can do 31MPG driven at 65MPH. The new 997.2 engine has more low-end torque and can therefore be driven more economically.
That's an easy way to dismiss their accomplishment. The Veron has 1001HP / 922lbft and gets 8/15mpg (offical EPA numbers). You'd think with that torque it'd be getting around 60mpg.
www.fueleconomy.gov lists your car as 14 city/24 hwy. The C2S is listed as 18 city/24 hwy. I was doing around 15 km/h over the limit with cruise on and got 24.8mpg (on 94 octane) according to the trip computer. I seriously doubt you would ever see 31mpg unless you were going downhill the whole way.
Jul 8, 2008 5:35:11 AM
- Georgie997S
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Re: 997.2 vs Rivals
Quote:No no no...
reginos said:Quote:
Georgie997S said:Quote:You have a point there... But personally speaking I would never consider 997.2 being a new car in the market... A completely new 911 is the one that won't be having a 997 code. The whole "direct injection thing" is just marketing in my opinion. PDK could be a good reason to separate 997.1 from 997.2... Also FL in THAT case has nothing to do with the real meaning of the words. Where are the face lifted features anyway?????? LED lights are not considered as a facelift are they...? If we think about what PAG has really created here is certainly not what people expected. PAG has made people that had bought a 997.1 lose money for a bunch of led lights after they decide to sell their cars!!!!
hesperus said:
good show porsche... but i cannot help feeling this is one of those situations where the magazines are only too happy to proclaim the newest car the best (as long as the car is genuinely good, and the praise can be somehow justified or reasoned), in a bid to make the advertisers happy.
R8 was showered with praise
GT-R showered with praise
and now FL 997 praised
sure they're all very good cars... but you know what i mean?
or am i just being cynical?
@Georgie, they've given 385HP on the S which is more than the pre-FL X51 powerkit(381HP). So there is your standard (free) powerkit on the 997.2.
By coincidence I've just driven the car (manual) this afternoon and I can tell you it is much much improved than the 997.1 in all areas from engine to ride to gearchange quality to composure under acceleration and cornering. However, a 997.1 ownwer who wants to stay with Porsche should wait for the 998 model.
Porsche follows a policy of continuous improvement and the FL is not in the sense of some cosmetic changes only but many things change that make the car better. From all the years I drive Porsche, IMO the newer one is always the better one within a model range. This doesn't mean that somebody should spend the extra money for the new model because the "old" one will be good enough for many years to come.
. I meant they SHOULD provide X51 ALONG with direct injection. I'm not saying they should forget about direct injection and install X51 alone. Then direct injection + X51 provides around 400 horses. THAT is a change. Regarding what you said that all people that have 997.1 should keep the car until a new 911 is out I totally agree!!!! There's no reason to trade 997.1 for 997.2. You get exactly the same car... That's what I was talking about.
Jul 8, 2008 7:31:55 AM
- cookie monster
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Re: Change that's not just skin deep
Quote:Has anyone noticed that the SPASM with LSD - 20 mm is only available on the C2 and C2S as an option? The C4 model cannot get SPASM?
Le Chef said:
The significance of 997.2 is that the major changes are beneath the surface. The engines are almost completely brand new units, you get a substantial increase in power, PDK is a significant change, SPASM is new for everyone, the return of LSD is great for track drivers. In fact calling 997.2 a facelift is a misnomer - it's much more than that.
Jul 8, 2008 9:54:21 AM
- KresoF1
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