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Re: GT-R does 7.29 at 'ring
Quote:
nberry said:Quote:
Grant said:Quote:
nberry said:
They did this on standard tires?If i recall I was excoriated by most if not all this board when I claimed that tires would not make the difference you all claimed. What is your position now?
My understanding is the the Bridgestone tires on the GT-R were a priniciple part of its development and hundreds of compounds and tread patterns were tested before selecting the final version. It's not a simple off-the-shelf tire. It's a VERY high performance tire with a short lifespan (soft tread), although they are runflats...
Grant correct me if I am wrong but did not the GT2 have special tires developed for it as well as the CGT, and 599?
Nevertheless, the 7.29 is somewhat hard to believe. It has never been clear to me as to whether these Ring times are from a stopped start or running start. Or do different manufacturers use different approaches?
Nick,
If true(I personally do not belive it) 7.29min means that all other sportscar manufactures are not on the Nissan level...
BUT, look at recent big GT-R test at UK's EVO mag. They measured it on drag(against Z06) and on the Bedford track.
Test results are more then interesting... In acceleration GT-R did not beat Z06 on high speed runs. On Bedford track it achieved just 0.5s faster time then Audi R8! In fact its time is within of 0.1s of Gallardo SL time... So, it Godzilla is just 0.5s faster on Bedford then R8 how is it possible that it is more then 30s faster on the Ring? I know, I know Ring is different track just, something is wrong here. Big time wrong...
Look at situation with Gallardo SL. Same time on Bedford as GT-R just on the Ring GT-R is almost 20s faster...
Re: GT-R does 7.29 at 'ring
Quote:
KresoF1 said:
Nick,
If true(I personally do not belive it) 7.29min means that all other sportscar manufactures are not on the Nissan level...
BUT, look at recent big GT-R test at UK's EVO mag. They measured it on drag(against Z06) and on the Bedford track.
Test results are more then interesting... In acceleration GT-R did not beat Z06 on high speed runs. On Bedford track it achieved just 0.5s faster time then Audi R8! In fact its time is within of 0.1s of Gallardo SL time... So, it Godzilla is just 0.5s faster on Bedford then R8 how is it possible that it is more then 30s faster on the Ring? I know, I know Ring is different track just, something is wrong here. Big time wrong...
Look at situation with Gallardo SL. Same time on Bedford as GT-R just on the Ring GT-R is almost 20s faster...
There are countless examples like these.
The 996 Turbo is 3 seconds slower than the F430 on the HHR. But on the much longer track, the difference bewteen the 2 is the same.
The 996 GT2 is slower than the Gallardo SL on the HHR but on the Nurburgring,the GT2 is faster.
When EVO tested the 997 GT3,it was 0.5sec slower than the R8. But it somehow managed to be nearly 20 seconds than the Audi on the NBR.
May 2, 2008 8:37:59 AM
- TB993tt
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Re: GT-R does 7.29 at 'ring
Any GTR which "dynoed" at 480hp at the wheels once again illustrates how inaccurate certain chassis dynos are. We know from years of expereinces with Porsches that certain chassis dynos are completely useless. How many people think the 997tt has more like 500hp because of chassis dyno readings ? Fact is the 997tt engines which have been independantly tested on proper factory standard engine dynos were spot on within a couple of hp to Porsche's claims.
The more accurate chassis dynos were coming up with around 430hp at the wheels (for the GTR) which again people were adding 25% losses to and coming with silly numbers. Nissan claim that with the new technology they have used including special bearings they have minimalised drivetrain losses to 10% hence the 430hp is spot on.
If you analyse carefully the GTRs acceleration and take into account the gearing and speed of gearchanges together with the way the systems interact to keep the boost solid all the way during acceleration combined with a low drag body you can see that the hp number given is not wrong.
There have not been any proper acceleration tests over 160kph yet for the GTR, only one which revealed that 160-240kph in 12.6s, the 997 turbo would be at 250kph after 12.6s from 160kph - The GTR can use its gears and trick systems to really accelerate below 160kph but once it runs out of gears it has to rely on its low drag and 480hp - this is where its weight will show and the 997tt will be significantly faster in the 160-280kph range.
Re the 7.29s - It is an official Nissan press release, do we really think they would risk the ridicule which would surely happen when the time was independantly verified ? To those who think the time is ridiculous, spend half an hour reading up on the technology in the GTR, click on the pics on the bottom left of this page: http://www.gtrforums.com/
All the comparative data they present shows they have really targeted all aspects of their competition.
If Nissan are telling the truth this is the only sports car which has the lowest Cd of 0.27 AND has negative lift coefficient ! this is a massive achievement, Porsche have (understandably with a shape to maintain) not been able to achieve this with the 911. The weight distribution again is unprecedented.....
Whether the thing falls to bits or not or looks like sh!t to some people is a different matter
Just one thought on the 'ring time, how much time is saved with the full boost gearchanges alone at 0.3s saving per shift ?
The more accurate chassis dynos were coming up with around 430hp at the wheels (for the GTR) which again people were adding 25% losses to and coming with silly numbers. Nissan claim that with the new technology they have used including special bearings they have minimalised drivetrain losses to 10% hence the 430hp is spot on.
If you analyse carefully the GTRs acceleration and take into account the gearing and speed of gearchanges together with the way the systems interact to keep the boost solid all the way during acceleration combined with a low drag body you can see that the hp number given is not wrong.
There have not been any proper acceleration tests over 160kph yet for the GTR, only one which revealed that 160-240kph in 12.6s, the 997 turbo would be at 250kph after 12.6s from 160kph - The GTR can use its gears and trick systems to really accelerate below 160kph but once it runs out of gears it has to rely on its low drag and 480hp - this is where its weight will show and the 997tt will be significantly faster in the 160-280kph range.
Re the 7.29s - It is an official Nissan press release, do we really think they would risk the ridicule which would surely happen when the time was independantly verified ? To those who think the time is ridiculous, spend half an hour reading up on the technology in the GTR, click on the pics on the bottom left of this page: http://www.gtrforums.com/
All the comparative data they present shows they have really targeted all aspects of their competition.
If Nissan are telling the truth this is the only sports car which has the lowest Cd of 0.27 AND has negative lift coefficient ! this is a massive achievement, Porsche have (understandably with a shape to maintain) not been able to achieve this with the 911. The weight distribution again is unprecedented.....
Whether the thing falls to bits or not or looks like sh!t to some people is a different matter
Just one thought on the 'ring time, how much time is saved with the full boost gearchanges alone at 0.3s saving per shift ?
Re: GT-R does 7.29 at 'ring
Toby,
I wouldn't doubt a low 7:40 time, but 7:29 just seems far-fetched. Of course, if the time is actually real, then I say good for Nissan and the car will deservedly sell like hotcakes. It will also mean that the euro manufacturers will have some catching up to do.
I wouldn't doubt a low 7:40 time, but 7:29 just seems far-fetched. Of course, if the time is actually real, then I say good for Nissan and the car will deservedly sell like hotcakes. It will also mean that the euro manufacturers will have some catching up to do
.
Re: GT-R does 7.29 at 'ring
Quote:
Crash said:
Toby,
I wouldn't doubt a low 7:40 time, but 7:29 just seems far-fetched. Of course, if the time is actually real, then I say good for Nissan and the car will deservedly sell like hotcakes. It will also mean that the euro manufacturers will have some catching up to do
Very true. If the time proves to be real (or close to it) we may soon see GTRs (with kids in the back seat waving:) as they overtake GT3s at the Ring.
This would make 911s look slow and old fashioned on their home turf. But there is not much Porsche can do about it for quite some time. And by then the game will have moved on again.
Re: GT-R does 7.29 at 'ring
And remember that it takes a professional driver to extract maximum performance from a 911 (and even they spin out and crash regularly). The GTR allows average trackers to extract most of its potential with greater safety.
At public days at the Ring this would make the GTR faster than the GT2 in the hands of non-professionals (even if the times were the same for professionals). And if there are wet or slippery conditions the GTR wins by a huge margin.
This is the kind of performance that Porsche should have built into the 997 Turbo. Their failure to do so was a major mistake.
At public days at the Ring this would make the GTR faster than the GT2 in the hands of non-professionals (even if the times were the same for professionals). And if there are wet or slippery conditions the GTR wins by a huge margin.
This is the kind of performance that Porsche should have built into the 997 Turbo. Their failure to do so was a major mistake.
Re: GT-R does 7.29 at 'ring
These 0-1000m times are very close. I guess the 250-300 km/h time of the GTR would be slower than the Turbo and considerably slower than the GT2.
24. Porsche 911(997) Turbo 6spd: 21.3sec@248km/h (155 mph)
29. Nissan GT-R/R35: 21.5sec@245km/h (153 mph)
http://www.rennteam.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=438456&an=0&page=0#438456
24. Porsche 911(997) Turbo 6spd: 21.3sec@248km/h (155 mph)
29. Nissan GT-R/R35: 21.5sec@245km/h (153 mph)
http://www.rennteam.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=438456&an=0&page=0#438456
Re: GT-R does 7.29 at 'ring
Quote:
AUM said:
And remember that it takes a professional driver to extract maximum performance from a 911 (and even they spin out and crash regularly). The GTR allows average trackers to extract most of its potential with greater safety.
At public days at the Ring this would make the GTR faster than the GT2 in the hands of non-professionals (even if the times were the same for professionals). And if there are wet or slippery conditions the GTR wins by a huge margin.
This is the kind of performance that Porsche should have built into the 997 Turbo. Their failure to do so was a major mistake.
Agree!
Just one problem with 997TT(and all other 997 models)-rear engine layout even with amazing chassis requires a KENNER in the drivers seat to achieve very good to excellent track time... Even W.Rohrl said recently in Auto Bild that Audi R8 is much easier car to drive fast then 997 GT2...
Back OT to GT-R... If it truly is capable with Bridgestone tires and in von Saurma hands of something like 7.38min-7.40min I would close my mouth and buy GT-R. For Euro 80K in Germany it is the best buy for sure.
BUT, what IF GT-R do not deliver as promissed
Any Ring time above 7.40min would be a disaster IMHO(Nissan opened this Pandora box with recent 7.29min claim)... People will say either von Saurma do not know how to drive(NOT TRUE, specially on the Ring) OR NISSAN LIED BIG TIME!Just remember Audi's official claim for R8... 7.55min by Tom Kristensen... 8.04min by von Saurma... 8.05min by one another German race driver... Audi NEVER mentioned R8 Ring time again...
Re: GT-R does 7.29 at 'ring
#Look at situation with Gallardo SL. Same time on Bedford as GT-R just on the Ring GT-R is almost 20s faster#
The difference is 16 seconds. This could be accounted for by:
The Ring favours the GTR (weight matters less at higher speeds with faster corners.
The Ring has been partially resurfaced in the winter making all cars up to 4 seconds faster.
Nissan test drivers are probably faster than anyone else in the GTR.
Recent suspension upgrades for the GTR account for nine seconds.
The difference is 16 seconds. This could be accounted for by:
The Ring favours the GTR (weight matters less at higher speeds with faster corners.
The Ring has been partially resurfaced in the winter making all cars up to 4 seconds faster.
Nissan test drivers are probably faster than anyone else in the GTR.
Recent suspension upgrades for the GTR account for nine seconds.
May 2, 2008 12:08:09 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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Re: GT-R does 7.29 at 'ring
Quote:
KresoF1 said:BUT, what IF GT-R do not deliver as promissed
Just remember Audi's official claim for R8... 7.55min by Tom Kristensen... 8.04min by von Saurma... 8.05min by one another German race driver... Audi NEVER mentioned R8 Ring time again...
I think they are counting on just that, by the time the GT-R gets to Europe this propaganda stunt will be forgotten by the general public. Its happened with Aston Martin, BMW, Honda, Corvette, etc... Nissan have just taken it a bit too far this time.
Picture Walter Rorhl in a 3200lbs 610HP CGT all out on the Nring laping it, then a 3000lbs 600HP Zonda F with its test driver following close behind, and a 3100lbs 800HP Koenigsegg CCR struggling to keep up with them... then you see a 3800+ lbs 480HP Nissan GT-R 100m behing staying with them all thoughout the 20km course... just the thought of that picture is just too comical
May 2, 2008 12:26:15 PM
- TB993tt
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Carlos from Spain
Re: GT-R does 7.29 at 'ring
Quote:
Carlos from Spain said:
I think they are counting on just that, by the time the GT-R gets to Europe this propaganda stunt will be forgotten by the general public. Its happened with Aston Martin, BMW, Honda, Corvette, etc... Nissan have just taken it a bit too far this time.
I think you may be wrong on this - the car will be limited supply, UK have ~1000 orders and Europe ~500 so far. I really think a high percentage of people who will buy this car are indeed real enthusiasts certainly NOT the general public (lets face it why would anyone buy one over a Porsche unless you really appreciated the engineering benefits) and if/when Nissan's lies are exposed then the sh!t will hit the fan big time and Nissan's reputation will be destroyed - personally I doon't think it will happen and HVS will get round the ring sub 7:40....
Quote:It must really fly round those corners
Carlos from Spain said:
Picture Walter Rorhl in a 3200lbs 610HP CGT all out on the Nring laping it, then a 3000lbs 600HP Zonda F with its test driver following close behind, and a 3100lbs 800HP Koenigsegg CCR struggling to keep up with them... then you see a 3800+ lbs 480HP Nissan GT-R 100m behing staying with them all thoughout the 20km course... just the thought of that picture is just too comical
Re: GT-R does 7.29 at 'ring
Quote:
KresoF1 said:
Till starts of EU sales GT-R Ring time will be lowered to 7.10min...
Nissan's next press anouncement will be:
"Our GTR cracked the all-Time record of the late Stefan Bellof on street tires":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqFrqLBcCGk
Blueflame
May 2, 2008 12:58:07 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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Re: GT-R does 7.29 at 'ring
Quote:
TB993tt said:
I think you may be wrong on this - the car will be limited supply, UK have ~1000 orders and Europe ~500 so far. I really think a high percentage of people who will buy this car are indeed real enthusiasts certainly NOT the general public (lets face it why would anyone buy one over a Porsche unless you really appreciated the engineering benefits)
I agree on what you say, but I was refereing to general car enthusiasts, not necesarily buyers, who read these things on the magazines. The GT-R is Nissan's image flagship model and carries a big weight in terms of brand image for Nissan, hence all this hidden marketing they are doing when its not even available in US or Europe. They could care less about the number of sales they make and profit, thats why its limited production and such a bargain (at least in Asia), the GT-R's brings profits to Nissan in elevating the brand image and getting brand exposure, and this is just part of it.
Quote:
TB993tt said:and if/when Nissan's lies are exposed then the sh!t will hit the fan big time and Nissan's reputation will be destroyed
I'n not so sure, people forget easily and also its a manufacturer's claim not a magazine's claim, people don't take it seriously. At least nothing happened when Spaort AUto times turned not to be even close to othe manufacturer's claims in the past.
May 2, 2008 1:38:50 PM
- Porsche-Jeck
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Carlos from Spain
Re: GT-R does 7.29 at 'ring
Quote:
Carlos from Spain said:
I'n not so sure, people forget easily and also its a manufacturer's claim not a magazine's claim, people don't take it seriously. At least nothing happened when Spaort AUto times turned not to be even close to othe manufacturer's claims in the past.
I agree - who cares about factory claimed Ring-times other than those crazy pistonheads at Rennteam and similar boards ?
As for real world experiences I agree with what AUM said: for a mortal driver it will be easier to extract the capabilities of a powerful 4wd "easy to drive" car on Nos compared to a GT3. Everytime when I observe the GT3 Armada on NoS I'm under the impression that max. 20% of the drivers really know how to drive fast AND safe with such an automotive weapon. But then - the mortal buyer just wants to have fun with these toys (nothing wrong with that), he's not getting paid to achieve impressive laptimes. And for real racing it will be interesting to watch how a GT-R will perform during the 24h race. BTW I read that Lexus will participate with a LFA also
May 2, 2008 2:08:39 PM
- Pekka_Perkeles
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May 2, 2008 3:03:03 PM
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Re: GT-R does 7.29 at 'ring
http://autos.canada.com/news/story.html?id=fb6c882f-6e21-4f27-90d2-cb010e8a8630&k=34740&p=2
It seems Suzuki may be faster than most other drivers in the GTR. It would be interesting to time him and HvS on the same day in the same car at the Ring.
''In order to go fast around a race track with the GT-R, one needs to be patient with the throttle or needs the setup chosen by Toshio Suzuki, one of Nissan's test drivers, who was on hand to do some demo laps. He showed me the way he configures the various systems of the car. In short, he selects the R mode for the suspension settings and the fastest shift speed, but he deactivates the traction control completely.
With this setup, he is able to drive more aggressively, actually pitching the car in the corners with a fast and sharp tug at the wheel on corner entry before straightening out the steering and applying power, trying to slightly drift through the corner while slightly adjusting the steering wheel angle to maintain the ideal line. The tires howl. It is the kind of display that is only possible of a driver who is very experienced with the car.''
It seems Suzuki may be faster than most other drivers in the GTR. It would be interesting to time him and HvS on the same day in the same car at the Ring.
''In order to go fast around a race track with the GT-R, one needs to be patient with the throttle or needs the setup chosen by Toshio Suzuki, one of Nissan's test drivers, who was on hand to do some demo laps. He showed me the way he configures the various systems of the car. In short, he selects the R mode for the suspension settings and the fastest shift speed, but he deactivates the traction control completely.
With this setup, he is able to drive more aggressively, actually pitching the car in the corners with a fast and sharp tug at the wheel on corner entry before straightening out the steering and applying power, trying to slightly drift through the corner while slightly adjusting the steering wheel angle to maintain the ideal line. The tires howl. It is the kind of display that is only possible of a driver who is very experienced with the car.''
Re: GT-R does 7.29 at 'ring
Quote:
AUM said:Quote:
Crash said:
Toby,
I wouldn't doubt a low 7:40 time, but 7:29 just seems far-fetched. Of course, if the time is actually real, then I say good for Nissan and the car will deservedly sell like hotcakes. It will also mean that the euro manufacturers will have some catching up to do
Very true. If the time proves to be real (or close to it) we may soon see GTRs (with kids in the back seat waving:) as they overtake GT3s at the Ring.
This would make 911s look slow and old fashioned on their home turf. But there is not much Porsche can do about it for quite some time. And by then the game will have moved on again.
it is not only Porsche with the problem (though Porsche has established its credentials on the NBR0 but other European manufacturers. Assuming the time is correct, what will Ferrari do when they introduce the 430 replacement? They can gives us all the specs, technological advancements and other propaganda about the 142 but if it is 20 seconds slower than a car which cost 2/3 less, all their promotion will fall on deaf ears. I know my response will be; ENOUGH WITH THE BULLSH*T; DELIVER!
Re: GT-R does 7.29 at 'ring
This is one of the fastest growing threads on the forum. Ridiculous.
If you are so keen on NBR laptimes, answer me one question:
How come Kurosawa achieves such an outstanding time in a 964 Turbo with 320 hp (stock) , yet even the 993 Turbo with powerkit (430 hp) in the SportAuto supertest achieved a 8.12 min laptime? This doesn't make you lose sleep as well, does it?
If you are so keen on NBR laptimes, answer me one question:
How come Kurosawa achieves such an outstanding time in a 964 Turbo with 320 hp (stock) , yet even the 993 Turbo with powerkit (430 hp) in the SportAuto supertest achieved a 8.12 min laptime? This doesn't make you lose sleep as well, does it?
Re: GT-R does 7.29 at 'ring
Quote:
Ferdie said:
This is one of the fastest growing threads on the forum. Ridiculous.
If you are so keen on NBR laptimes, answer me one question:
How come Kurosawa achieves such an outstanding time in a 964 Turbo with 320 hp (stock) , yet even the 993 Turbo with powerkit (430 hp) in the SportAuto supertest achieved a 8.12 min laptime? This doesn't make you lose sleep as well, does it?
Ferdie, if you check my posts for years I have been down playing the importance of the Ring times. I don't put much stock in them. However, when you have a production street car that is priced around $70,000 which obliterates (I mean by almost 20 sec.)Porsche, Ferrari, Lambo, MB times then I must ask what are we paying for?
Ferrari, Porsche and the rest of them are the gold standard (or so they lead us to believe). They are suppose to be on the cutting edge in race technology. Hell, Ferrari spends a zillion dollars on racing technological advancement. Porsche engineers are suppose to be second to none in performance technology.
Yet, a Japanese company comes along and produces a product which honestly embarrasses them with it superiority in performance advancements. How can either Ferrari and Porsche with a straight face display their cars at an auto show and extol the virtue of their high performance car?
It would be an insult to the intelligence of the automotive world to have them tell you about how great their cars are.
The time has come for European car companies to put up or shut up. Either they accept their inferiority leave with their tail between their legs and hope that past reputation and heritage sell their cars or demonstrate they are as good as they say they are. I do not hold out much hope for the latter.
Re: GT-R does 7.29 at 'ring
Quote:
nberry said:Quote:
Ferdie said:
This is one of the fastest growing threads on the forum. Ridiculous.
If you are so keen on NBR laptimes, answer me one question:
How come Kurosawa achieves such an outstanding time in a 964 Turbo with 320 hp (stock) , yet even the 993 Turbo with powerkit (430 hp) in the SportAuto supertest achieved a 8.12 min laptime? This doesn't make you lose sleep as well, does it?
Ferdie, if you check my posts for years I have been down playing the importance of the Ring times. I don't put much stock in them. However, when you have a production street car that is priced around $70,000 which obliterates (I mean by almost 20 sec.)Porsche, Ferrari, Lambo, MB times then I must ask what are we paying for?
Ferrari, Porsche and the rest of them are the gold standard (or so they lead us to believe). They are suppose to be on the cutting edge in race technology. Hell, Ferrari spends a zillion dollars on racing technological advancement. Porsche engineers are suppose to be second to none in performance technology.
Yet, a Japanese company comes along and produces a product which honestly embarrasses them with it superiority in performance advancements. How can either Ferrari and Porsche with a straight face display their cars at an auto show and extol the virtue of their high performance car?
The time has come for European car companies to put up or shut up. Either they accept their inferiority leave with their tail between their legs and hope that past reputation and heritage sell their cars or demonstrate they are as good as they say they are. I do not hold out much hope for the latter.
I'm with Nick on this one, the European manufacturers are really riping us off..total boycott I say.
Re: GT-R does 7.29 at 'ring
+1 for what Nick said....
That video with Walter Rorhl giving test rides on the closed roads in the 997tt being almost smug about how AMAZING the 997tt is now seems like a farce, it seems a GTR half the price could probably have overtaken him !
This one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwvNe7ZRcyk
That video with Walter Rorhl giving test rides on the closed roads in the 997tt being almost smug about how AMAZING the 997tt is now seems like a farce, it seems a GTR half the price could probably have overtaken him !
This one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwvNe7ZRcyk
Re: GT-R does 7.29 at 'ring
Quote:
nberry said:
Ferdie, if you check my posts for years I have been down playing the importance of the Ring times. I don't put much stock in them. However, when you have a production street car that is priced around $70,000 which obliterates (I mean by almost 20 sec.)Porsche, Ferrari, Lambo, MB times then I must ask what are we paying for?
Ferrari, Porsche and the rest of them are the gold standard (or so they lead us to believe). They are suppose to be on the cutting edge in race technology. Hell, Ferrari spends a zillion dollars on racing technological advancement. Porsche engineers are suppose to be second to none in performance technology.
Yet, a Japanese company comes along and produces a product which honestly embarrasses them with it superiority in performance advancements. How can either Ferrari and Porsche with a straight face display their cars at an auto show and extol the virtue of their high performance car? It would be an insult to the intelligence of the automotive world to have them tell you about how great their cars are.
My comment was intended to show how much importance laptimes, partly unconfirmed, have if one puts them into comparison with other various sources. What has Porsche's official laptime been for the 964 3.3 Turbo fifteen years ago? How come, an independent test with an undoubtly excellent driver could achieve a laptime several seconds less than Porsche's official claim?
All I am trying to imply is that numbers are of little importance, the people who regularly drive on a track will know how much variables come into play, the most important one being the driver. If the GT-R will force competition on the premium markes, namely Porsche, Ferrari and Lamborghinin and even including GM's Corvette, this would be a great contribution for all of us. This has been brought up before and I wholeheartedly agree. From my point of view, it is not the lower price that is important but the fact that finally another car can offer the Turbo's versatility and performance in one package.
Have you ever asked yourself the question why Porsche never officially announced the NBR laptime for the Carrera GT? And why the GT2 supposedly was driven during manufacturers' days and not on a closed circuit? The fact that so many users debate about these laptimes, even on this board, just shows of how much relevance this seems to be to some.
Re: GT-R does 7.29 at 'ring
Not to draw this thread out (I don't want Ron to get on me ) but what strikes me the most about the GT-R is the huge disparity in performance and cost between presumably the elite performance cars and the GT-R. It really got my attention.
It is one thing for my 430 to do 7.55 and the 997TT do 7.54 or the 997GT3 and RS just below 7.50. I can live with few seconds difference. What I cannot accept is almost 20 sec. (assuming the 7.38 in the more accurate time for the GT-R).
Just when do we consumers draw the line and say " what am I paying for"? At least with the Z06, the cost is relatively close to the GT-R. For us to buy a European "high performance" sport car we need to pay and arm and a leg. The base 911 and S seemed like a good deal but now with the GT-R that thought is ridiculous.
Sadly, European manufacturers will not change until buyers demand more of them. My view it isn't going to happen and I am as guilty as anyone.
) but what strikes me the most about the GT-R is the huge disparity in performance and cost between presumably the elite performance cars and the GT-R. It really got my attention.It is one thing for my 430 to do 7.55 and the 997TT do 7.54 or the 997GT3 and RS just below 7.50. I can live with few seconds difference. What I cannot accept is almost 20 sec. (assuming the 7.38 in the more accurate time for the GT-R).
Just when do we consumers draw the line and say " what am I paying for"? At least with the Z06, the cost is relatively close to the GT-R. For us to buy a European "high performance" sport car we need to pay and arm and a leg. The base 911 and S seemed like a good deal but now with the GT-R that thought is ridiculous.
Sadly, European manufacturers will not change until buyers demand more of them. My view it isn't going to happen and I am as guilty as anyone.
May 2, 2008 6:02:49 PM
- ADias
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- Loc: Southwest USA , United States
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Reply to:
Carlos from Spain
Re: GT-R does 7.29 at 'ring
Quote:
Carlos from Spain said:Quote:
TB993tt said:
I think you may be wrong on this - the car will be limited supply, UK have ~1000 orders and Europe ~500 so far. I really think a high percentage of people who will buy this car are indeed real enthusiasts certainly NOT the general public (lets face it why would anyone buy one over a Porsche unless you really appreciated the engineering benefits)
I agree on what you say, but I was refereing to general car enthusiasts, not necesarily buyers, who read these things on the magazines. The GT-R is Nissan's image flagship model and carries a big weight in terms of brand image for Nissan, hence all this hidden marketing they are doing when its not even available in US or Europe. They could care less about the number of sales they make and profit, thats why its limited production and such a bargain (at least in Asia), the GT-R's brings profits to Nissan in elevating the brand image and getting brand exposure, and this is just part of it.Quote:
TB993tt said:and if/when Nissan's lies are exposed then the sh!t will hit the fan big time and Nissan's reputation will be destroyed
I'n not so sure, people forget easily and also its a manufacturer's claim not a magazine's claim, people don't take it seriously. At least nothing happened when Spaort AUto times turned not to be even close to othe manufacturer's claims in the past.
Carlos: you sound like you are worried that the GT-R is as good as the claims say. You are even comparing it to 600HP sacred cows to try to discredit it. And what if it is as good as they say? in my book all sports enthusiasts benefit. Maybe PAG will be finally forced to work on substance instead of fluff on its 911 line.
BTW... even if the GT-R is as good as they say, the CS and the Turbo will not be any worse than they were before.
Road & Track tested a GT-R and said it was faster than a Z06. As a C6 owner am I upset? Not at all. I think it's great. We'll all win.
Re: GT-R does 7.29 at 'ring
Quote:
nberry said:
Sadly, European manufacturers will not change until buyers demand more of them. My view it isn't going to happen and I am as guilty as anyone.
That is unfortunately true. And that is because PAG/Ferrari/Aston and others are mostly catering to people who buy their products for their image and not for their substance.
Heck... I remember the time when 911s had no image, just substance.
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