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Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?
This is what the 997 Turbo needed and does not have.
''The Nissan AWD system wasn't developed from the 959. It was developed from scratch from the results of super-computer simulations and other mathematical analysis. The system is far more comprehensive than that developed for the 959 or 964 C4. Basically Nissan determined the ideal front/rear torque split under all road condtions and vehicle orientations, developed an AWD transaxle to implement the theory (which is very ingenious in how it works), and developed complex sensors and computer programs to help apply the theory. No Porsche car does this.
BTW, the system is called ATTESA E-TS: Advanced Total Traction Engineering System for All Electronic Torque Split. It actually can differentiate between entering a corner and exiting one.''
From 6speedonline
''The Nissan AWD system wasn't developed from the 959. It was developed from scratch from the results of super-computer simulations and other mathematical analysis. The system is far more comprehensive than that developed for the 959 or 964 C4. Basically Nissan determined the ideal front/rear torque split under all road condtions and vehicle orientations, developed an AWD transaxle to implement the theory (which is very ingenious in how it works), and developed complex sensors and computer programs to help apply the theory. No Porsche car does this.
BTW, the system is called ATTESA E-TS: Advanced Total Traction Engineering System for All Electronic Torque Split. It actually can differentiate between entering a corner and exiting one.''
From 6speedonline
Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?
Quote:
AUM said:
This is what the 997 Turbo needed and does not have.
''The Nissan AWD system wasn't developed from the 959. It was developed from scratch from the results of super-computer simulations and other mathematical analysis. The system is far more comprehensive than that developed for the 959 or 964 C4. Basically Nissan determined the ideal front/rear torque split under all road condtions and vehicle orientations, developed an AWD transaxle to implement the theory (which is very ingenious in how it works), and developed complex sensors and computer programs to help apply the theory. No Porsche car does this.
BTW, the system is called ATTESA E-TS: Advanced Total Traction Engineering System for All Electronic Torque Split. It actually can differentiate between entering a corner and exiting one.''
From 6speedonline
Yep. That's the only thing I really love about the GT-R. Its AWD system is the best there is.
Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?
Quote:
nberry said:Quote:
KresoF1 said:
Costumer cars in USA are more powerfull then 480hp(crank). GT-R is producing at least 520hp(crank), maybe even 530-540hp... All dynos so far confirmed that figures.
Question is why is Nissan lying about true hp?
MY fellow lawyer, I am afraid you are being myopic. Your digging around in the dirt to justify your bias for a German car. Get out of the hole you are digging look at the entire forest, and acknowledge what you know in your heart is true, NISSAN HAS OUT ENGINEERED THE FORMER ENGINEERING LEADER PORSCHE
Just appreciate the wonderful achievement as have all the car magazines that have reviewed the GT-R. It is light years ahead the the base 911 models and certain substantially ahead of the TT, GT3 and GT3RS. I also believe it is ahead of my 430 but my saving grace is Ferrari is not only about performance as Porsche MUST be.
If there is a stake in the heart of Porsche by the GT-R it is this; Porsche have always been about performance/value and that is why you buy it. Styling, resale value and originality are not its strong suit. No comes a car that beats it so bad that Porsche now looks like it has old prune which cannot find a toilet fast enough to relieve itself.
Deal with it.
Final point. To my knowledge, no one has independently confirmed that the GT-R is running at a higher hp level. There is a deference between hope and fact. As a lawyer you must deal with facts.
Nick,
I did not expect such POS response from you...
First, I do not own Porsche or celebrate Porsche cars as the best sportscars. Some other members here do that...
Second, I am digging a hole? Well, your language is pretty well, strange... Since you are here personally attacking someone else opinion. You do not like when other members do that to you, don't you...
Third, three independant dynos at various magazines from USA and UK showed very clearly that GT-R is producing at least 520hp at crank. That is the FACT my fellow lawyer. You need to live with it, not me.
Fourth, why don't you buy GT-R since it is soo damn good? According to mythical reviews in some magazines it is better then any Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini or Aston Martin. Then simply buy it and enjoy it.
Fifth, you are apparently skipping the fact that GT-R sales in EU will start in March 2009. Here in good old Europe we only know basic specs and price. That's it! We DO NOT know CO2 emission or fuel consumption of EU specs GT-R. Why? Ask Nissan since they claim that GT-R for EU will receive some minor changes in suspension tune, engine ECU and headlight system. Small changes indeed...
You simply do not understand that I am talking here about car that DO NOT EXIST yet on European market. Only Japanese grey import cars and entering UK(RHD) market in small numbers...
When EVO reviews EU specs GT-R and Sport Auto reviews EU specs GT-R I will post my final opinion. Of course, I hope that I will get some test drive of GT-R...
If the numbers and subjective opinion of for example R.Meaden and Horst von Saumra says that GT-R is the best sportscar in the world I will except it. BUT, my internal gut is telling me that end result will not be that positive...
In the end Nick, I simply did not expect such negative post towards me from you. Guess I was all wrong about you...
Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?
It is of highest importance to highlight (as Kreso did in his recent post) that there have been no proper tests of the GTR in the German press yet. Also, it is important to note that the GTR will not be sold to German customers before mid 2009. At the same time Nissan is already taking deposits from potential buyers... I am not naive enough to believe that all this is a coincidence 
My conclusion: The GTR is (most likely) a big cheat
My conclusion: The GTR is (most likely) a big cheat
Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?
Quote:
MKSGR said:
It is of highest importance to highlight (as Kreso did in his recent post) that there have been no proper tests of the GTR in the German press. Also, it is important to note that the GTR will not be sold to German customers before mid 2009. At the same time Nissan is already taking deposits from potential buyers...
My conclusion: The GTR is (most likely) a big cheat
Yep.
Apr 13, 2008 9:55:39 AM
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Carlos from Spain
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MKSGR
Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?
Quote:
nberry said:
NISSAN HAS OUT ENGINEERED THE FORMER ENGINEERING LEADER PORSCHE
nick, you sound a bit stressed out and exasperated
all that negativety and fustration towards Porsche sportcars you don't even drive is getting to you... and why you choose to be wasting so much time in P-car forums intead of getting out and driving F-car or the Mini beats me. Try it, it works for me 
Don't worry, it may be hard to see but there is life beyond Porsche
Apr 13, 2008 10:02:35 AM
- Moogle
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Carlos from Spain
Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?
Well, various reliable periodicals have tested both GT-R and Turbo... GT-R wins by a small but sizable margin. It really looks like Porsche has been beat.
Styling / interior is another story... but I wonder why people refuse to accept that the GT-R is faster and technologically more advanced?
Styling / interior is another story... but I wonder why people refuse to accept that the GT-R is faster and technologically more advanced?
Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?
Quote:
Moogle said:
Well, various reliable periodicals have tested both GT-R and Turbo... GT-R wins by a small but sizable margin. It really looks like Porsche has been beat.
Not sure whether the available tests are that reliable. Just think of the one test (forgot the magazine) where the GTR was about 5s faster than 997TT and Z06 on a 1 minute track... Obviously that cannot be called a "reliable" test report
However, I agree, that even SportAuto will (most likely) achieve *slightly* better NBR/HHR times with the GTR than with the 997TT (HvS indicated that in one of the recent issues). That, indeed, is a great achievement for Nissan
Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?
Quote:
Moogle said:
Well, various reliable periodicals have tested both GT-R and Turbo... GT-R wins by a small but sizable margin. It really looks like Porsche has been beat.
Styling / interior is another story... but I wonder why people refuse to accept that the GT-R is faster and technologically more advanced?
Because on the Autobahn, it isn't faster and in real-world twisties, the difference will probably be unnoticable. As for track work, one would have to be pretty insane to track a 2-tonne car.
Apr 13, 2008 10:19:24 AM
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Carlos from Spain
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Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?
Quote:
Crash said:
''The Nissan AWD system wasn't developed from the 959. It was developed from scratch from the results of super-computer simulations and other mathematical analysis. The system is far more comprehensive than that developed for the 959 or 964 C4. Basically Nissan determined the ideal front/rear torque split under all road condtions and vehicle orientations, developed an AWD transaxle to implement the theory (which is very ingenious in how it works), and developed complex sensors and computer programs to help apply the theory. No Porsche car does this.
BTW, the system is called ATTESA E-TS: Advanced Total Traction Engineering System for All Electronic Torque Split. It actually can differentiate between entering a corner and exiting one.''
From 6speedonline
Since we are dealing with sportcars and not family sedans, I will reserve my judgement after I tried it, since IMO AWD's kill a little bit of the sportcar driving enjoyment (some more than others), there is a reason why the GT3, GT2 and CGT are RWD, or Ferraris, etc. I'd preffer an +/- equally fast car but achieved through less weight, mid or rear engine and RWD for example, not through and AWD and 1700kg kerb weight. An M5 can be more or less equally fast on the highway compared to a 997Turbo but which would you like to be driving...
Its like secuential trannies, they increase performance over the manual but without a clutch and stick, part of the driving enjoyment is taken out of the equation. I'm speaking for myself here, tastes and preference may vary and are perfectly respectable.
Thats all great in racecars, but in street sportcars, I preffer driving enjoyment over tenths of a second or paper figures bragging rights. I'm all for performance but not when its at the expense of enjoyment, unless we are talking about safety (ESP, airbags, all-weather tires, etc). I'm looking foward to seeing SportAuto's Supertest of a production unit on the "real world" Nurburgring and Saurma's comparative impressions.
Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?
Quote:
Crash said:
Because on the Autobahn, it isn't faster and in real-world twisties, the difference will probably be unnoticable. As for track work, one would have to be pretty insane to track a 2-tonne car.
Heh, reminds me of a post I saw on aston martin forum... some bloke was complaining how his DB9's brakes were fried after a few hard laps at the track and was asking what combination of fluids/pads would rectify that LOL...
The only response I could muster was that it was not meant to be tracked or to get brembos hah.
I suppose the point of all this is that in the real world when split seconds don't matter in terms of performance, it comes down to emotion and feel. That is where Japanese and American cars fall short.
Apr 13, 2008 10:43:05 AM
- WAY
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Carlos from Spain
Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?
Motor Magazine in Australia tested the R32, R33, R34 and R35 GTR back to back in the latest issue. On a 1 min track, it beat the R34 by 5 secs!!! That is incredible. Those of you who have driven or know about the R34 will agree with this. Go Google some R34 reviews on the internet and you will see what a great car it is (on the track at least) and to have it so comprehensively beaten by the R35 is incredible to say the least. This legend is real guys. Call me naive, but I believe it and am very close to putting a deposit on one...
Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?
Quote:
eclou said:Quote:
Nissan Motor Co., Ltd.
17-1, 6 chome, Chuou-ku, Ginza
Tokyo Japan
www.nissan.co.jp
Dear Valued Nissan GT-R customers,
Thank you very much for purchasing Nissan GT-R. We deeply apologize for the late delivery of the Nissan GT-R.
The reason of the delay is due to the decrease in production of the Nissan GT-R model caused by the shortage of the special crutch for the transmission manufactured by the American maker.
Nissan GT-R is featured in the magazine and Internet, and getting excellent reputation in the market. In order to produce remarkably smooth and fast pick-up high speed as well as the powerful resistance in driving, the special crutch is required with the guaranteed high level of precision and function, which are far different from those for standard continental cars. Unfortunately, the delivery shortage of 50 ~ 200 vehicles / month is caused by the limited capacity of the current manufacturer's production started since last year.
Maintaining the standard of quality of function and trust to all the customers is the Nissan GT-R's the first priority. We guarantee the quality and precision in every production process with strict inspection. This is also the reason for the delay in delivery. There is absolutely no other factor of defect.
In addition, the manufacturer is in the progress of expanding its production plant urgently. It is planned to start production in March or April. Once the new plant is opened, the production will be on schedule.
We, again, would like to apologize for the inconvenience caused by the late delivery of the Nissan GT-R. We seek the customer's understanding about the situation.
Thank you for continues support to Nissan GT-R at the moment and in the future.
Sincerely yours,
Nissan Motor Co., Ltd.
2nd Project Group
Chief Vehicle Engineer and
Chief Product Specialist
Interesting letter. Where did you find it?
Subtle touch, blaming delivery delays on production difficulties with the crutch made by an American supplier.
The letter was obviously intended for Japanese-market "consumption".
Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?
Having said all that, some information has come to light from that Motor article. It is claimed by the guy who personally imported the car that in Japan, the GT-R actually requires a service after each time you track it. And it cost $1000 each time! And after 100,000km, it requires an engine strip down for the recoating of some plasma. This is one expensive car to keep, which is one thing that puts me off it...
Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?
Quote:
Crash said:Quote:
Moogle said:
Well, various reliable periodicals have tested both GT-R and Turbo... GT-R wins by a small but sizable margin. It really looks like Porsche has been beat.
Styling / interior is another story... but I wonder why people refuse to accept that the GT-R is faster and technologically more advanced?
Because on the Autobahn, it isn't faster and in real-world twisties, the difference will probably be unnoticable. As for track work, one would have to be pretty insane to track a 2-tonne car.
Crash, just like to remind you that very few of us on this forum would ever travel on the autobahn in their own cars. Even for those who need to, most would consider 280kmh (or whatever the top speed of the GT-R is) plenty fast enough.
Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?
Quote:
WAY said:
Having said all that, some information has come to light from that Motor article. It is claimed by the guy who personally imported the car that in Japan, the GT-R actually requires a service after each time you track it. And it cost $1000 each time! And after 100,000km, it requires an engine strip down for the recoating of some plasma. This is one expensive car to keep, which is one thing that puts me off it...
Why does this surprise you so much? Participating in motor sport always was expensive and the higher the level of performance gets, the higher the costs are.
Since the GTR's engine has a high specific performance (power output of some engines is reputedly even much higher than Nissan wants to admit to) I would be very surprised if engines of cars primarily used on the track survive 100,000 km between strip-downs.
Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?
No, the 100,000km service doesn't relate to track time. That is for all cars reaching that milestone. And in terms of service after each track day, I used to do that on my Porsches too, but they were simple services like oil change, brake fluid, back to road pads etc. Usually cost me $200-300 done by Porsche motorsport division. But $1000 after each track day? That is a bit too rich for me. I don't race my cars, just do the social track days.
Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?
Quote:
WAY said:
Having said all that, some information has come to light from that Motor article. It is claimed by the guy who personally imported the car that in Japan, the GT-R actually requires a service after each time you track it. And it cost $1000 each time! And after 100,000km, it requires an engine strip down for the recoating of some plasma. This is one expensive car to keep, which is one thing that puts me off it...
That sounds very weird... Somehow the mechanical quality of the car might reflect the low price
Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?
Imagine if every 997 Turbo requires engine total rebuild after 100.000km...
IMO we, members from Europe really need to skip all comments about GT-R until that car reach EU market. When we finally see CO2 emission and fuel consumption specs of EU GT-R we can see some light, as well as final DIN PS figures... Of course, in-depth reviews and measurements from Sport Auto, EVO etc. will also add some additional wisdome...
IMO we, members from Europe really need to skip all comments about GT-R until that car reach EU market. When we finally see CO2 emission and fuel consumption specs of EU GT-R we can see some light, as well as final DIN PS figures... Of course, in-depth reviews and measurements from Sport Auto, EVO etc. will also add some additional wisdome...
Apr 13, 2008 12:38:21 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?
Quote:
WAY said:
No, the 100,000km service doesn't relate to track time. That is for all cars reaching that milestone. And in terms of service after each track day, I used to do that on my Porsches too, but they were simple services like oil change, brake fluid, back to road pads etc. Usually cost me $200-300 done by Porsche motorsport division. But $1000 after each track day? That is a bit too rich for me. I don't race my cars, just do the social track days.
Thats to be taken into account in the purchase since that makes the GTR less bang for the buck than what the retail price would suggest, since the resale value of the car is going to be even less than the already low resale expected if thats true.
Apr 13, 2008 12:55:05 PM
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eclou
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Carlos from Spain
Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?
Fritz,
the quote is from the GTR forums. They are now realizing that orders are not going to start being filled until late 08 or early 09.
No one wants to comment on the Autoweek article stating the GTR is less satisfying to drive than the IS-F? That the GTR was felt to make the driver only a secondary component of the driving experience?
the quote is from the GTR forums. They are now realizing that orders are not going to start being filled until late 08 or early 09.
No one wants to comment on the Autoweek article stating the GTR is less satisfying to drive than the IS-F? That the GTR was felt to make the driver only a secondary component of the driving experience?
Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?
Quote:
Crash said:Yep. That's the only thing I really love about the GT-R. Its AWD system is the best there is.
The Mitsubishi EVO X has a similarly excellent system which they call Super All Wheel Control (which includes about 10 different acronyms). It makes sure the car never understeers (or oversteers) in a corner by vectoring torque to each of the 4 wheels as necessary. No understeer is very difficult to achieve in a front-engined AWD car. It comes standard with LSD on both front and rear axles (as well as electronic center diff) too.
It is also much more advanced than Porsche's PTM...
Apr 13, 2008 1:22:43 PM
- Porsche-Jeck
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Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?
Quote:
eclou said:
No one wants to comment on the Autoweek article stating the GTR is less satisfying to drive than the IS-F? That the GTR was felt to make the driver only a secondary component of the driving experience?
Sounds like exactly the same verdict topgear (?) stated in a GT-R/R8 comparo. I'm with Carlos (see his earlier post in this thread): the driving experience/fun is what counts for the majority of (non-poser) buyers. And that's hard/impossible to judge from the numbers on paper.
When I bought the 987S some two years ago I tested all the competitors before making the decision - of course also the (then) new 350Z - same story at a "lower" level: pricepoint appr. 50% compared to the P-car, but less involving drive. Re total cost of ownership: spare parts and especially insurance premiums for the upscale Nissan models are more expensive compared to Porsche (at least in Germany). 1,000 bucks after each trackday ? LoL - would blow up my trackday budget into another sphere
Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?
Quote:
Grant said:Quote:
Crash said:Yep. That's the only thing I really love about the GT-R. Its AWD system is the best there is.
The Mitsubishi EVO X has a similarly excellent system which they call Super All Wheel Control (which includes about 10 different acronyms). It makes sure the car never understeers (or oversteers) in a corner by vectoring torque to each of the 4 wheels as necessary. No understeer is very difficult to achieve in a front-engined AWD car. It comes standard with LSD on both front and rear axles (as well as electronic center diff) too.
It is also much more advanced than Porsche's PTM...
...on a car that is 1/6th of the price.
Apr 13, 2008 1:28:22 PM
- WAY
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Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?
Quote:
Porsche-Jeck said:Quote:
eclou said:
No one wants to comment on the Autoweek article stating the GTR is less satisfying to drive than the IS-F? That the GTR was felt to make the driver only a secondary component of the driving experience?
Sounds like exactly the same verdict topgear (?) stated in a GT-R/R8 comparo. I'm with Carlos (see his earlier post in this thread): the driving experience/fun is what counts for the majority of (non-poser) buyers. And that's hard/impossible to judge from the numbers on paper.
Yeah but if driving experience and fun is all we are after then why aren't we all buying a Lotus Exige or better still even an Arial Atom?
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