Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR? - Page3

Apr 8, 2008 10:57:39 AM

easy_rider911: Rennteam VIP; Loc: London , United Kingdom; Posts: 22190, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 8, 2004; Reply to: nberry

Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?

Quote:
nberry said:
Your being disingenous. The GT-R is far superior in in the attributes you describe. So why don't you buy a GT-R. BECAUSE OF THE PORSCHE BADGE THAT IS WHY!

People just be honest with yourselves. To continue this canard that I don't care about the badge is just hogwash.

Me "disingenuous"? Now that's really funny!

I know I meant exactly what I wrote but I can only assume that you're so used to saying things on this forum that you don't actually believe are true that you just aren't used to the fact that other people might actually be expressing a genuine opinion.

At the end of the day, choosing a car involves so many different factors so the fact that an alternative may perform better in certain ways doesn't automatically mean that it is the best choice.

Also, no one is saying that the brand is irrelevant.

It's just far from being the only factor. But claiming that people buy a Porsche only for the badge is such a silly comment that I can only assume you made it deliberately just to provoke controversy.

I can't believe anybody would be foolish enough to actually believe that.

Or is your world that black and white?

But since I'm spending my own money (and not yours)

, who are you to tell me that my choice is right or wrong.

All of which makes me ask myself a question that so many others here have asked: what exactly are you doing here on Rennteam nberry?

Do you have anything positive/constructive to add/share or is your sole purpose just to criticise Porsche cars and their owners?

Seems like such an empty pursuit when there are so many positive things in life to talk about. Oh, how could I forget, you also enjoy the schoolboy game of my Ferrari is better than your Porsche.

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Apr 8, 2008 1:04:50 PM

WAY: Rennteam Master; Loc: Melbourne, Australia; Posts: 3344, Gallery; Registered on: May 11, 2004; Reply to: jesse

Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?

I strongly believe Europe will strike back. This is the same as when the first Lexus LS400 came out. Mercedes and BMW were forced to go back to their drawing board. Today it's GTR that is doing that to the Euro cars. I am sure the next generation 911 will counter the GT-R. In the mean time, guys like me may just end up buying a GTR.

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Apr 8, 2008 1:27:29 PM

doyle: Co-Pilot; Loc:; Posts: 160, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 1, 2003; Reply to: WAY

Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?

The real test will be in 30 years when both cars are technically classics. I would venture to bet that the TT will auction off for a much higher value than the GTR.

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Apr 8, 2008 1:39:51 PM

throt: Rennteam VIP; Loc: London , United Kingdom; Posts: 6078, Gallery; Registered on: May 9, 2005; Reply to: doyle

Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?

Quote:
doyle said:
The real test will be in 30 years

Most of the guys on here will be long gone

but they still will turn in there box though if the GTR comes up trumps on that score

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Apr 8, 2008 4:01:40 PM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13737, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: easy_rider911

Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?

FWIW, though I prefer Ferrari over Porsche or any other car, I do not hesitiate to criticize Ferrari. I have my issues with them and will forcefully make my case. The whole point of a chat site is balanced, objective and subjective views and opinions.

Your response regarding whether the badge has something to do with a car purchase only confirms what I wrote. It has everything to do with it. Yet, you cannot bring yourself to acknowledge it. Why? Does it mean you have a character flaw and weakness?

I asked the question that if the GT-R is superior in every attribute you listed as important to you as to why you buy the Porsche why do you prefer the Porsche? This despite the fact that the GT-R is also less expensive (I am assuming your not into burning English pounds only to impress

).

So tell us why do you prefer the Porsche?

If you were in Court, the jury would be snickering about now in anticipation of your "honest" answer.

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Apr 8, 2008 5:33:51 PM

easy_rider911: Rennteam VIP; Loc: London , United Kingdom; Posts: 22190, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 8, 2004; Reply to: nberry

Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?

nberry, this is getting funnier with each post.

Quote:
nberry said: ... whether the badge has something to do with a car purchase ... Yet, you cannot bring yourself to acknowledge it ...

Do I really have to repeat my previous answer (since you don't appear to have understood it the first time)?

Well, here it is again <<yawn>>:

Quote:
easy_rider911 said: ... no one is saying that the brand is irrelevant. It's just far from being the only factor ...

I'm just wondering which part of that answer wasn't clear?

How can anybody think that I wasn't "acknowledging" that the brand does indeed play a part in one's choice of car.

It's just not the ONLY factor - there are various other factors too!

Quote:
nberry said: ... I asked the question that if the GT-R is superior in every attribute you listed as important to you ...

Wrong assumption nberry

It isn't superior in EVERY attribute that is important to me. I never said that.

In my eyes, it's better "in certain ways" but not in various other ways. I would have thought that this would have been clear to you from my previous post:

Quote:
easy_rider911 said: ... At the end of the day, choosing a car involves so many different factors so the fact that an alternative may perform better in certain ways doesn't automatically mean that it is the best choice ...

Quote:
nberry said: ... So tell us why do you prefer the Porsche? ...

Hey - I don't have to justify my purchase decision to you, nberry.

How self-important of you to think that I should have to explain myself to you.

Since I'm spending my own money, I only have to justify my choice to myself (and to my wife

).

This discussion has been about whether the GT-R is a serious threat to Porsche and whether Porsche will have to react to this threat, not about why I bought my car.

Quote:
nberry said: ... If you were in Court, the jury would be snickering about now ...

How funny! You often make these trivial and irrelevant legal references, nberry.

It's tedious and puerile. Superficially, you seem to enjoy winding up other attorneys on this forum and think you are being clever

but, the more I interact with you, the more obvious it appears to me that you have a 'professional' chip on your shoulder. No number of Ferraris will remove that I'm afraid.

As so often with you, nberry, this conversation isn't going anywhere or achieving anything (except giving you undeserved attention and indulging your inflated sense of self-importance

) so I will not be wasting any more time engaging in yet another fruitless, negative discussion with you so this is the last I have to say to you on this matter.

You only seem to derive pleasure from being condescending and contemptuous towards others by putting others down. Surely, aren't you a bigger person than that?

All of which again makes me ask myself the question that so many others here have asked: what exactly are you doing here on Rennteam, nberry?

I don't recall you ever posting photos of your road trips or track days in your F430. Nor have I seen you post scenic photos of your car in beautiful locations. Where are the positive aspects of your Ferrari ownership displayed here? What have you shared with us except your prejudices and negativity? Ask yourself these questions. You may find the answers may lead you to try something new and refreshingly different for a change.

Otherwise, nberry, I regret that spending years simply criticising Porsche cars and their (in your opinion) 'deluded' buyers will mean that, in my eyes, you will have shown yourself to be no more than just a 'one-trick' pony on this forum.

All the best,
Easy

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Apr 8, 2008 5:37:20 PM

SoCalHoosier: Veteran; Loc: California , United States; Posts: 896, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 13, 2003; Reply to: easy_rider911

Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?

Hey easy_rider-

Just out of curiosity... do you have a favorite sports team? If so, would you say you are an ardent fan, or a casual observer?

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Apr 8, 2008 5:42:45 PM

964C2: Expert; Loc: Dallas, TX , United States; Posts: 1825, Gallery; Registered on: May 11, 2004; Reply to: nberry

Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?

Quote:
nberry said:
FWIW, though I prefer Ferrari over Porsche or any other car, I do not hesitiate to criticize Ferrari. I have my issues with them and will forcefully make my case. The whole point of a chat site is balanced, objective and subjective views and opinions.

Your response regarding whether the badge has something to do with a car purchase only confirms what I wrote. It has everything to do with it. Yet, you cannot bring yourself to acknowledge it. Why? Does it mean you have a character flaw and weakness?

I asked the question that if the GT-R is superior in every attribute you listed as important to you as to why you buy the Porsche why do you prefer the Porsche? This despite the fact that the GT-R is also less expensive (I am assuming your not into burning English pounds only to impress ).

So tell us why do you prefer the Porsche? If you were in Court, the jury would be snickering about now in anticipation of your "honest" answer.

The recent R&T article on the GTR/TT/Z06 said it well:
"We didn't include "mystique factor", but if we did the TT would be at the top of the list....if it weren't my own money I'd take the TT...it has that "it" factor that's hard to ignore."

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Apr 8, 2008 5:48:52 PM

SoCalHoosier: Veteran; Loc: California , United States; Posts: 896, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 13, 2003; Reply to: 964C2

Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?

Well the "it" factor is actually just another one of Porsche's many options.
It's the Invisible Car Cover and it lists for 70-80K.

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Apr 8, 2008 5:49:32 PM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: nberry

Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?

Quote:
nberry said:
FWIW, though I prefer Ferrari over Porsche or any other car, I do not hesitiate to criticize Ferrari. I have my issues with them and will forcefully make my case. The whole point of a chat site is balanced, objective and subjective views and opinions.

Exactly. I'm not buying Ferrari because of the way it looks and because it's totally exce$$ive.

You're not buying Porsche because it's not as common as a VW nor as exclusive as a Maybach.

Great!

As long as everybody understands everybody there should be no reason for anyone to make provocative-but-empty statements and disturbing importune commentaries which remind me of the drunk I happened to suffer for a few minutes last Sunday night.

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Apr 8, 2008 10:08:51 PM

fritz: Rennteam VIP; Loc: BaWü , Germany; Posts: 10248, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 23, 2003; Reply to: nberry

Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?

Quote:
nberry said:
Fritz I am crazy like a fox.

Nick, you shouldn't generalize by giving ALL foxes a bad rep. You are as crazy as a rabid fox.

Quote:
nberry said:
As to the Porschephiles response to the GT-R here is the list;

1. The car is ugly (forgetting that when the Uber frog was introduced 40 years ago that was the public reaction to it)

If you are talking about the 356, that was 60 years ago. That car did indeed look like a squatting frog. The public reaction to the 911 was in fact very positive, because it looked so much less like a squatting frog than the 356.

The GTR just looks like one of those Japanese transformer toys. Most people can't wait for it to transform, because it could only get better.

Problem is, it doesn't transform.

Quote:
nberry said:
2. The performance figures are a fraud (where did I hear this before oh yea the Z06)

You heard that before with regard to the Corvette ZO6's claimed Nürburgring time of 7'42". After the extremely skeptical reaction of people who know something about Nürburgring lap times to this claim, things got mysteriously quiet where GM was concerned.
To the best of my knowledge, GM never officially "confirmed" this claim for the standard road-going version of the Z06. This suggests to me that some members of the project team involved may have been a little "over-exuberant" in spreading the rumor.

Quote:
nberry said:
3. If the performance figures are accurate, then they are lying about the hp.

When engine performance, car weight and track performance figures do not fit into the "framework" known for various other competitive cars under comparable conditions, people are inclined to speculate about possible explanations for the discrepancies.

Quote:
nberry said:
4. If they are not lying about the hp then the performance number are as a result of a super version for press consumption.

Speculation mentioned under 3. can lead skeptical people to doubt the integrity of an over-exuberant project team which may have been put under a lot of pressure to succeed at a specific objective, such as, for instance, "Beat Porsche at all costs".

Quote:
nberry said:
5. If the car is for real, it nevertheless is a Nissan and we Porsche people do not buy lower mass produced cars.

We already saw in the early 1990s that the Porsche name alone is no guarantee that the product will sell. The buyers have to want what the product has to offer.

Quote:
nberry said:
6. It is a Nissan so the quality is lousy.

I don't remember reading that comment here.

I personally believe that Nissan's product quality is good and I was in fact seriously considering buying one - but not the GTR! The purchase was vetoed by my wife (it would have been her daily driver) because that model's ergonomics were not to her taste.

Quote:
nberry said:
7. If the car is for real it is unfair to compare the price to a Porsche because Nissan is dumping the car at a loss just to sell it.

Having seen the car, including the cut-away model of it shown at the Geneva auto show, I am very much inclined to believe that Nissan is not making as much money on the GTR as it would like to - to put it very mildly!

I suspect that pricewise the GTR will not be such a good deal in its home market as it will be in the USA.

Quote:
nberry said:
8. Finally regarding performance, at least to European audiences the car has yet to be tested by German drivers for German Magazines on German roads and therefore none of the prior test are worth a damn.

I personally am looking forward to the SportAuto Supertest of the GTR with a great deal if interest.

I know that you do not put a very high value on Horst von Saurma's test results or lap times, but they are the best "data base" that is available to sports car fans.

Quote:
nberry said:
Have I missed anything?

You have just missed the point again, Nick.

But we are accustomed to that.

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Apr 8, 2008 10:30:00 PM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: fritz

Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?

Quote:
fritz said:
Quote:
nberry said:
Fritz I am crazy like a fox.

Nick, you shouldn't generalize by giving ALL foxes a bad rep. You are as crazy as a rabid fox.

Quote:
nberry said:
As to the Porschephiles response to the GT-R here is the list;

1. The car is ugly (forgetting that when the Uber frog was introduced 40 years ago that was the public reaction to it)

If you are talking about the 356, that was 60 years ago. That car did indeed look like a squatting frog. The public reaction to the 911 was in fact very positive, because it looked so much less like a squatting frog than the 356.
The GTR just looks like one of those Japanese transformer toys. Most people can't wait for it to transform, because it could only get better. Problem is, it doesn't transform.

Quote:
nberry said:
2. The performance figures are a fraud (where did I hear this before oh yea the Z06)

You heard that before with regard to the Corvette ZO6's claimed Nürburgring time of 7'42". After the extremely skeptical reaction of people who know something about Nürburgring lap times to this claim, things got mysteriously quiet where GM was concerned.
To the best of my knowledge, GM never officially "confirmed" this claim for the standard road-going version of the Z06. This suggests to me that some members of the project team involved may have been a little "over-exuberant" in spreading the rumor.

Quote:
nberry said:
3. If the performance figures are accurate, then they are lying about the hp.

When engine performance, car weight and track performance figures do not fit into the "framework" known for various other competitive cars under comparable conditions, people are inclined to speculate about possible explanations for the discrepancies.

Quote:
nberry said:
4. If they are not lying about the hp then the performance number are as a result of a super version for press consumption.

Speculation mentioned under 3. can lead skeptical people to doubt the integrity of an over-exuberant project team which may have been put under a lot of pressure to succeed at a specific objective, such as, for instance, "Beat Porsche at all costs".

Quote:
nberry said:
5. If the car is for real, it nevertheless is a Nissan and we Porsche people do not buy lower mass produced cars.

We already saw in the early 1990s that the Porsche name alone is no guarantee that the product will sell. The buyers have to want what the product has to offer.

Quote:
nberry said:
6. It is a Nissan so the quality is lousy.

I don't remember reading that comment here.
I personally believe that Nissan's product quality is good and I was in fact seriously considering buying one - but not the GTR! The purchase was vetoed by my wife (it would have been her daily driver) because that model's ergonomics were not to her taste.

Quote:
nberry said:
7. If the car is for real it is unfair to compare the price to a Porsche because Nissan is dumping the car at a loss just to sell it.

Having seen the car, including the cut-away model of it shown at the Geneva auto show, I am very much inclined to believe that Nissan is not making as much money on the GTR as it would like to - to put it very mildly! I suspect that pricewise the GTR will not be such a good deal in its home market as it will be in the USA.

Quote:
nberry said:
8. Finally regarding performance, at least to European audiences the car has yet to be tested by German drivers for German Magazines on German roads and therefore none of the prior test are worth a damn.

I personally am looking forward to the SportAuto Supertest of the GTR with a great deal if interest.
I know that you do not put a very high value on Horst von Saurma's test results or lap times, but they are the best "data base" that is available to sports car fans.

Quote:
nberry said:
Have I missed anything?

You have just missed the point again, Nick. But we are accustomed to that.

If we ever meet, I'm buying beer

.

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Apr 8, 2008 11:34:07 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21155, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: Crash

Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?

Ditto

Fritz 2, Nick 0

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Apr 8, 2008 11:52:25 PM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13737, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: fritz

Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?

Hey, Fritz you have made a hell of a try in explaining all the excuses Porsche owners use to put down GTR. Your getting back on your game which I am happy to see.

Nevertheless, most of your responses have been nothing more than speculation and rumor whereas most if not all the test conduct by most magazines except German have confirm its superiority over the TT let alone the lowly base model 997 and 997S.

Easy Rider, showing pictures of my car in beautiful locations should not interest anyone. Certainly not me. It is a chat site and not a site for family portraits and vacations. Of course there are times they are of interest but if everyone decided to posts similar experience it the site would become a travel log. Not my cup of tea.

Finally, I was aware of you stating the positive by using a negative (the badge is not irrelevent) but where I come from it is a cop out. Just say it; "Damn it, the Porsche badge means a lot to me when making a car buying decision" There is nothing to be ashamed about in doing so. As a matter of fact, people will respect you more for it.

So say it is not irrelevent is like responding to a question from your wife when she asks whether sex in the relationship is important to you and you respond "it is not irrelevent". She how she reacts.

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Apr 9, 2008 2:19:31 PM

95jersey: Senior; Loc: US; Posts: 578, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 20, 2006; Reply to: nberry

Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?

Recently came accross this...man there is so much conflicting information on this car.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/assets/download/0508_ct_GTRZ06911_chart.pdf

According to this test, the Z06 has the fastest 1/4 mile by a 10th of a second. They have the same 0-60 times, but what might confirm the GT-R's road course capability is it's great braking results and slalom speed. The gearing is out of this world, but that explains how they got such a heavy car to perform well in acceleration.

Notice the weight difference, the GT-R comes in a 3960lb as tested!

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Apr 9, 2008 10:09:38 PM

Nidge: Junior; Loc: UK; Posts: 57, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 12, 2006; Reply to: 95jersey

Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?

The fact that we are all talking on this subject matter means that we have to accept that the GT-R has ruffled Porsche feathers. Lets take out the looks issue. Looks are subjective. Whilst the Porsche owners think the GT-R ugly, others may believe Porsche designers lazy. I have read the Porsche facelift blog until I am deranged with insomnia only for the outcome to be revised taillights. I love my Porsche looks, but do you know what? Having seen the GT-R in the flesh you have to admire its bravery. Regarding the performance conspiracy I am afraid that there are too many independent tests that demonstrate the GT-R capabilities. I therefore think we have to agree that the car is extremely quick and is giving the TT a run for its money. The outcome? Lots will still buy their Porsche whilst other will desert the brand for cars such as the R8 and GT-R. The one downside to evolution over change of substance is that over time you can become too familiar with the product and just desire a change.

I do think Porsche could do with a performance boost. Its not just the GTR that is passing the standard 911's with ease. There are a strong crop of cars that are eating into Porsche performance territory. I think that ultimately the new cars such as the GT-R will force Porsche to react. But as with most things Porsche, only in their own time.

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Apr 9, 2008 10:53:27 PM

edz: Rennteam Pro; Loc: South Orange County; Posts: 2022, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 11, 2005; Reply to: Joost

Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?

Yes and No, Porsche has the technology to match or beat a car such as the GTR but at a much higher price. Porsche will never beat the GTR price wise. Also many Porsche fans don't buy Porsches because of the performance alone.I know so many older people that would not drive over the speed limit yet the buy the fastest P-cars in the marker. I was in love with the P-cars since I was a teen and still am. Would buy a 997TT if it was a dog, certainly not but all things considered the Porsche Turbo has always been a world class car and will always be. Keep in mind GTR vs. 9977tt is more noticable on a track and in the hands of the professional. Street racers and ordinary drivers will be running very close and one little mistake one car will be behind the other

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Apr 10, 2008 6:10:50 AM

deathnell: Junior; Loc: GD.CHN; Posts: 74, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 4, 2007; Reply to: edz

Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?

What i am thinking about is that whether Gt2 still have the ability to smoke a GTR on Nordschleife by 5sec without those Michellin pilot SPORT CUP semi-slicks tires.You konw,even though GTR has about 520hp on crank in fact,it still has a slightly lower power-to-weight number to a turbo,which is much lower than GT2's.And it wears steet-tires but not r-compound tires like gt2 and gt3

The battle between Nissan and Porsche is on technology and engineering.If you are talking about history position,style and charactor,Porsche and nissan will not be porper competitors. Whan the problem comes to performance and engineering,Porsche needs to fight back to prove that Porsche is still competitive in the moden world.

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Apr 10, 2008 6:20:50 AM

reginos: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Nicosia , Cyprus; Posts: 12130, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 20, 2005; Reply to: deathnell

Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?

There are 3 issues here.
1. Does Porsche have the ability to build a GT-R type of car? The answer should be Yes IMO.
2. At what cost? The cost and hence selling price will be even higher than GT2's and therefore the disparity will be even greater and still the Price to Performance ratio will declare the GT-R the winner. So the effort will be in vain, besides an ego boost in Weissach. How Nissan do it so cheap? There are many guesses from subsidisation and hidden costs to economies of scale to unscrupulous profit margins by Porsche.
3. Do Porsche want to do a GT-R beater as a matter of priority? I don't think they care too much for now at least so as to devote engineering time and talent on a project like this, when they have their hands full with other more profitable things. Porsche's thinking is that the GT-R will come and go like many other Porsche beaters before it. It might steal some sales but that's life you win some you lose some. In 6 months time the magazines and internet boards will focus on other more recent things. How many care to read about the R8 for example, now? It was the car du jour some months ago.

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Apr 10, 2008 6:46:56 AM

Spyderidol: Rennteam Master; Loc: Mozambique; Posts: 5807, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 25, 2007; Reply to: reginos

Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?

Yes I agree, but .....The 911 has the kind of sales figures it has due in part, to it's reputation as a high performance sportscar. Much of this reputation has been built on its proven racing accomplishment on the various tracks around the world.
Today we see the 911 (in the its highest current form ;the 997RSR) getting thrashed by the Ferrari F30 GT.
Now it's road going performance is put in question by a Datsun!
You can fool some of the people all of time, and you can fool all of the people some of the time, but you cant fool all of the people all of the time.

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Apr 10, 2008 6:55:01 AM

Moogle: Rennteam Master; Loc: Bay Area , United States; Posts: 5019, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 9, 2003; Reply to: reginos

Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?

I was once like most of you...

Loved Porsche, thought they could do nothing wrong. Thought I would be buying 911s for a long time and cayennes to tow my 911 to the track.

Got the Boxster S, Turbo S, GT3/etc.

But then as cheshire porsche said, the brand is becoming so complacent and absorbed in their own 'legend' that they are really failing to innovate or create something new.

I am not sure who out there feels that 40 variants of the 911 is the right lineup... Take that down to 10-20 and give us a 200-250k mid engine supercar, less useless special editions and more emotion!

On top of that, when they do produce a gem such as the GT3RS, the dealers don't respect their long term, loyal clients, and sell the car at a high markup to speculators or poseurs.

How long does it take for them to integrate the ipod? Waiting since 2003 (MOST BUS introduction)...

That is just one example of something easy that many people want and Porsche does not listen, this sort of lacklustre attitude towards what the client wants extends from their road car development/marketing department all the way to motorsports.

Where does it go after you go through a handful of different yet very similar 911s? Right now its Aston for me and Scifrog and others like us. GT-R for chesire...etc/etc/etc.

The legitimate competitors for the 911 are growing and if you current Porsche owners still feel that you stand on some sort of unassailable podium established by Porsche's history, think again.

They used to be on the cutting edge, but they are now years behind in tech. DSG? Direct injection? Volkswagens had that 3 years ago! What is Porsche doing? Making the Cayman Porsche Design Edition (tempting to know there will be two design editions, oh my!).

Stop giving us FILLER, no one asked for it. They are flooding the marketplace with a half-hearted product and then making even more half-hearted special editions when sales slump slightly. You don't need to lie to customers with special editions named after the RS60/550/etc.

Great products sell themselves, but for various reasons. The cognescenti are now realizing that Porsche is used to be a "great product moving itself" now it is a "pretty good product selling due to great marketing".

This is the dark land we [Porsche] are in now... where the consumer is cheated, purists disenchanted, and poseurs born.

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Apr 10, 2008 7:00:08 AM

KresoF1: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Croatia , Croatia; Posts: 7856, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 3, 2005; Reply to: Moogle

Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?

Mogle,

First, Happy Birthday!

Second, I agree with you. This is that reason that I went for Audi R8. It is great sportscar, not the fastest one.
If Aston decide to open full dealership on my market I will be tempted...

Nissan GT-R? Probably not as fast as Nissan Gorilla marketing wants us to belive but, still very advanced technical achivement.

Porsche? Well... I like them a lot but, IMHO hunt for money only is over...

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Apr 10, 2008 7:18:31 AM

Moogle: Rennteam Master; Loc: Bay Area , United States; Posts: 5019, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 9, 2003; Reply to: KresoF1

Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?

Thanks Kreso

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Apr 10, 2008 7:53:10 AM

bz888: Newbie; Loc: Australia; Posts: 36, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 19, 2008; Reply to: Moogle

Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?

The Audi R8 gave the Porsche C2S, C4S and some GT3's a bit of a wake up call. The R8 V10 will take care of the GT3RS and Turbo. Now, the GTR is going after the Turbo and GT2!! Porsche is really getting hit from all directions. They WILL respond. It's just a matter of time. But, then again, so will its competitors. This game of performance leapfrog will always continue.

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Apr 10, 2008 8:03:20 AM

Italo: Veteran; Loc: UK , United Kingdom; Posts: 1055, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 29, 2007; Reply to: reginos

Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?

Quote:
reginos said:
There are 3 issues here.
1. Does Porsche have the ability to build a GT-R type of car? The answer should be Yes IMO.
2. At what cost? The cost and hence selling price will be even higher than GT2's and therefore the disparity will be even greater and still the Price to Performance ratio will declare the GT-R the winner. So the effort will be in vain, besides an ego boost in Weissach. How Nissan do it so cheap? There are many guesses from subsidisation and hidden costs to economies of scale to unscrupulous profit margins by Porsche.
3. Do Porsche want to do a GT-R beater as a matter of priority? I don't think they care too much for now at least so as to devote engineering time and talent on a project like this, when they have their hands full with other more profitable things. Porsche's thinking is that the GT-R will come and go like many other Porsche beaters before it. It might steal some sales but that's life you win some you lose some. In 6 months time the magazines and internet boards will focus on other more recent things. How many care to read about the R8 for example, now? It was the car du jour some months ago.

I partially disagree with you, Porsche could afford to build a car as fast as the GT-R and sell it at the same price. The amount a 911 is sold is 70% abouve the price it cost Porsche to build the car that's why they are the highest profit making car manufacturers

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Apr 10, 2008 8:11:04 AM

reginos: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Nicosia , Cyprus; Posts: 12130, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 20, 2005; Reply to: Italo

Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?

Quote:
Italo said:
Quote:
reginos said:
There are 3 issues here.
1. Does Porsche have the ability to build a GT-R type of car? The answer should be Yes IMO.
2. At what cost? The cost and hence selling price will be even higher than GT2's and therefore the disparity will be even greater and still the Price to Performance ratio will declare the GT-R the winner. So the effort will be in vain, besides an ego boost in Weissach. How Nissan do it so cheap? There are many guesses from subsidisation and hidden costs to economies of scale to unscrupulous profit margins by Porsche.
3. Do Porsche want to do a GT-R beater as a matter of priority? I don't think they care too much for now at least so as to devote engineering time and talent on a project like this, when they have their hands full with other more profitable things. Porsche's thinking is that the GT-R will come and go like many other Porsche beaters before it. It might steal some sales but that's life you win some you lose some. In 6 months time the magazines and internet boards will focus on other more recent things. How many care to read about the R8 for example, now? It was the car du jour some months ago.

I partially disagree with you, Porsche could afford to build a car as fast as the GT-R and sell it at the same price. The amount a 911 is sold is 70% abouve the price it cost Porsche to build the car that's why they are the highest profit making car manufacturers

Exactly, that was one of possible reasons I gave for price disparity:"unscrupulous profit margins by Porsche".

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Apr 10, 2008 8:29:04 AM

reginos: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Nicosia , Cyprus; Posts: 12130, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 20, 2005; Reply to: bz888

Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?

Quote:
bz888 said:
The Audi R8 gave the Porsche C2S, C4S and some GT3's a bit of a wake up call. The R8 V10 will take care of the GT3RS and Turbo. Now, the GTR is going after the Turbo and GT2!! Porsche is really getting hit from all directions. They WILL respond. It's just a matter of time. But, then again, so will its competitors. This game of performance leapfrog will always continue.

To be fair no one expects a company to respond to competition within weeks or months and thus always be on top.
Also most of this discussion about NBR times and tracking characteristics arises in the press and internet forums among car enthusiasts that constitute a fraction of the car buying public. The newer cars like the R8 or the GT-R for example always get the limelight and many journalists have to write good things about them to stay in business. They also have to write that it is better than Porsche or whoever is considered the pinacle of its class, because if they didn't it wouldn't be news. So many things become distorted and opinions are formulated which don't concern the average buyer who doesn't read tests and doesn't visit rennteam.com.
The vast majority buy cars based on image, looks and gadgets. How many Ferraris do you see on a normal rainy day on a motorway driven to determine the perfect line? I am sure very few compared to what you see outside clubs and casinos. These people don't give a s**t if the F430GT won its class in the ALMS. At the most they've heard of Schumacher. Real car fans are important to manufacturers but they are not their bread and butter and rightly or wrongly thay don't pay too much attention to them.

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Apr 10, 2008 8:40:54 AM

Spyderidol: Rennteam Master; Loc: Mozambique; Posts: 5807, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 25, 2007; Reply to: reginos

Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?

Sure they don't give s**t if the F430GT won it's class in the ALMS. But sure enough that information will filter down to them (in the fullness of time) if they keep winning long enough.
Also - their opinions are formed by others that do give a s**t (they're called "opinion leaders")

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Apr 10, 2008 8:43:02 AM

silvershadow: Senior; Loc: Zuerich, Switzerland , Switzerland; Posts: 757, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 6, 2003; Reply to: reginos

Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?

Simply looking at profitability Porsche will try to invest the lower amount of money to have the better improvement but not too big to screw up future incomes.
Do you remember sergei bubka? He was increasing the world record of pole vault just by 1cm at time, to make the most amount of money possible out of it.
So do not expect too much out of what will come.
And if i'm not wrong porsche now owns more then 50% of VW that means having control over a the group which owns Audi, Volkswagen, Seat and Skoda, as well as Bentley, Bugatti and Lamborghini.
Try to imagine what it will happen next.......Do you think they will allow future projects that will kick P-cars asses? :S I don't think so

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Apr 10, 2008 8:43:21 AM

Spyderidol: Rennteam Master; Loc: Mozambique; Posts: 5807, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 25, 2007; Reply to: Spyderidol

Re: Will Porsche respond to the GTR?

Just look at how Audi's image has been transformed by winning over and over again (and in spite of not having any real competition)in Sportcar racing.

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