Crown
Board: Porsche
Language: English
Region: Worldwide
Close
CloseForum - Thread
Mar 18, 2008 5:53:41 AM
- Spyderidol
- Rennteam Master
-
- Loc: Mozambique
- Posts: 5807, Gallery
- Registered on: Apr 25, 2007
- Reply to: ADias
Re: A lucid perspective on PAG and Herr WW...
I agree with much of what was written.
There is one point, in particular, that I have been trying to say on this forum for some time.
De Lorenzo says it better:
"And I've responded in kind with this: Promoting short-term profitability ahead of decades of accrued brand equity is a fool's errand, one that will ultimately prove to have disastrous consequences. Sell enough Cayenne SUVs and the upcoming Panamera four-door sedans to people whose interest in the vehicles only goes as far as wanting a Porsche emblem - an emblem that's being slapped on a wider array of vehicles totally disconnected from the brand's raison d'etre - while being clueless as to why they're buying it in the first place - and eventually they'll displace the hard-core True Believers who bought into Porsche's original brand essence in the first place."
There is one point, in particular, that I have been trying to say on this forum for some time.
De Lorenzo says it better:
"And I've responded in kind with this: Promoting short-term profitability ahead of decades of accrued brand equity is a fool's errand, one that will ultimately prove to have disastrous consequences. Sell enough Cayenne SUVs and the upcoming Panamera four-door sedans to people whose interest in the vehicles only goes as far as wanting a Porsche emblem - an emblem that's being slapped on a wider array of vehicles totally disconnected from the brand's raison d'etre - while being clueless as to why they're buying it in the first place - and eventually they'll displace the hard-core True Believers who bought into Porsche's original brand essence in the first place."
Mar 18, 2008 6:33:59 AM
- ADias
- Rennteam Pro
-
- Loc: Southwest USA , United States
- Posts: 2495, Gallery
- Registered on: Apr 9, 2004
- Reply to: Spyderidol
Re: A lucid perspective on PAG and Herr WW...
Quote:
Spyderidol said:
I agree with much of what was written.
There is one point, in particular, that I have been trying to say on this forum for some time.
De Lorenzo says it better:
"And I've responded in kind with this: Promoting short-term profitability ahead of decades of accrued brand equity is a fool's errand, one that will ultimately prove to have disastrous consequences. Sell enough Cayenne SUVs and the upcoming Panamera four-door sedans to people whose interest in the vehicles only goes as far as wanting a Porsche emblem - an emblem that's being slapped on a wider array of vehicles totally disconnected from the brand's raison d'etre - while being clueless as to why they're buying it in the first place - and eventually they'll displace the hard-core True Believers who bought into Porsche's original brand essence in the first place."
Precisely! And unfortunately it's happening already. The majority of 911/Boxster/Cayman buyers have no clue about the engineering/design/driving characteristics, they bought thesew cars for the badge's cachet. They will switch to another brand soon enough, the same way they change a shirt.
There was this talk that WW would be history. Is Wendelin being fired or what?
Re: A lucid perspective on PAG and Herr WW...
The "hard-core True Believers" can still buy their GTs and experience the core values of the brand. Moreover, such cars are value for money compared to the "exotics" and to the equivalent Porsches of 20 or 30 years ago.
In today's environment no manufacturer can survive for long without spreading and becoming more mainstream (look at Mercedes today compared to the past) unless it is swallowed by the bigger fish(see Lotus)or it lives a parasite's life off the back of a giant (see Ferrari, Maserati, Buggati).
In today's environment no manufacturer can survive for long without spreading and becoming more mainstream (look at Mercedes today compared to the past) unless it is swallowed by the bigger fish(see Lotus)or it lives a parasite's life off the back of a giant (see Ferrari, Maserati, Buggati).
Re: A lucid perspective on PAG and Herr WW...
The only thing watering down the image is the fact that porsche co-developed the exterior with VW and the V6 version power-wise.
Ironically, the single car that built the most of the porsche image was the 928. And on the racing side the legend of the 917. the 956/962 and Mclaren tag turbo didn't hurt.
There is nothing wrong with more model lines as long as they lead their category in design and performance. The panamera looks like a major flop waiting to happen.
Ironically, the single car that built the most of the porsche image was the 928. And on the racing side the legend of the 917. the 956/962 and Mclaren tag turbo didn't hurt.
There is nothing wrong with more model lines as long as they lead their category in design and performance. The panamera looks like a major flop waiting to happen.
Re: A lucid perspective on PAG and Herr WW...
Quote:
racerx said:
The only thing watering down the image is the fact that porsche co-developed the exterior with VW and the V6 version power-wise.
Ironically, the single car that built the most of the porsche image was the 928. And on the racing side the legend of the 917. the 956/962 and Mclaren tag turbo didn't hurt.
There is nothing wrong with more model lines as long as they lead their category in design and performance. The panamera looks like a major flop waiting to happen.
But...the Panamera 2 door coupe is the new 928.
Re: A lucid perspective on PAG and Herr WW...
Quote:
racerx said:
The only thing watering down the image is the fact that porsche co-developed the exterior with VW and the V6 version power-wise.
Agreed. Cayenne looks fugly IMHO, and the V6 version is a stain on the Porsche name (although it's right at home in the Touareg).
Quote:
racerx said:Ironically, the single car that built the most of the porsche image was the 928.
You've got to be kidding. The 928 was a landmark (it's the car that got me addicted to Porsche in the first place), but your refusal to acknowledge the 911 is ridiculous.
Even though the 928 was the superior vehicle, even though Porsche management wanted to phase out the obsolete and costly 911, customers kept buying the latter because the 911 was and remains the iconic Porsche.
Re: A lucid perspective on PAG and Herr WW...
Quote:
ADias said:Quote:
Spyderidol said:
I agree with much of what was written.
There is one point, in particular, that I have been trying to say on this forum for some time.
De Lorenzo says it better:
"And I've responded in kind with this: Promoting short-term profitability ahead of decades of accrued brand equity is a fool's errand, one that will ultimately prove to have disastrous consequences. Sell enough Cayenne SUVs and the upcoming Panamera four-door sedans to people whose interest in the vehicles only goes as far as wanting a Porsche emblem - an emblem that's being slapped on a wider array of vehicles totally disconnected from the brand's raison d'etre - while being clueless as to why they're buying it in the first place - and eventually they'll displace the hard-core True Believers who bought into Porsche's original brand essence in the first place."
Precisely! And unfortunately it's happening already. The majority of 911/Boxster/Cayman buyers have no clue about the engineering/design/driving characteristics, they bought thesew cars for the badge's cachet. They will switch to another brand soon enough, the same way they change a shirt.
There was this talk that WW would be history. Is Wendelin being fired or what?
That my friend is the problem in a nutshell. Porsche in the past was the purist car. They were built solely for that reason.
To attract more customers, Porsche embarked on a program to have a Porsche in every garage which meant they needed to widen the appeal of their cars. In successfully doing so, they compromised the purist appeal and tarnish the badge with wholesale wide distribution of numerous models.
While it is true their strategy has worked, it also has laid the seeds of mediocrity. Porsche are no longer special regardless of their performance. What distinguishes a special car from a mediocre one is not performance but a multitude factors including exclusivity, styling, sensuousness, public perception and value. When you think about it, Porsche does give you some value in performance but the Porsche owner sacrifices other intangibles which add up to rather pedestrian car.
Sadly, it is the future for this once proud brand which in the past always had me salivating to get one during my unwise years. FWIW, the media still is in its corner but slowly beginning to recognize what many of us already know that Porsche is not what it used to be.
Re: A lucid perspective on PAG and Herr WW...
Quote:
The Groom said:
You've got to be kidding. The 928 was a landmark (it's the car that got me addicted to Porsche in the first place), but your refusal to acknowledge the 911 is ridiculous.
Even though the 928 was the superior vehicle, even though Porsche management wanted to phase out the obsolete and costly 911, customers kept buying the latter because the 911 was and remains the iconic Porsche.
They kept buying the 911 because the 928 was too pricey for most. That would be like saying that today most prefer a C2 over a TT or GT2/3. I would be willing to bet that if 997tt were the same sticker price as 997c2 the TT would outsell the c2.
I didn't want to write a big long response just the distilled version.
Of course the 911 is a great part of Porsche, and since the demise of the 928 and Le Mans domination, IT IS PORSCHE. But we are talking about the image of Porsche, as the top maker of quality high performance luxury cars.
That image was created by the 928 not the 911's that came before it. The 928 program was a big step-up for Porsche in engineering, quality, design, everything. The 1980's were Porsche's heyday. Dominating endurance cars and dominating the luxury sports car market. Selling 5000 high priced, high performance 928's per year when lambo sold a couple hundred countach/jalpa of questionable quality and ferrari sold a few more of the brand new TR's.
Not only was the 928 of a superior engineering and build quality to everything else on the market, but it sold in what was massive numbers given its price tag.
The original 911 turbo gets some credit too. It wasn't until the 997 that the 911 series finally caught up to the standard set by the 928. The 997 is a great car!
I was in Porsche showrooms back then, I have driven most generations of 911, I am just saying if money grew on trees 928's would have sold even more and only the most dedicated track racer would have chosen 911 over 928. btw most of the porsche managers including Ferry drove 928's.
Re: A lucid perspective on PAG and Herr WW...
Quote:
racerx said:...
Of course the 911 is a great part of Porsche, and since the demise of the 928 and Le Mans domination, IT IS PORSCHE. But we are talking about the image of Porsche, as the top maker of quality high performance luxury cars.
"Porsche" the car I know and love is the 911, first and foremost. That is the icon that has been around since 1963. The Boxster and now the Cayman (terrible name) are worthy designs too, as they hail from the 550 Spyder.
The 924/928 may have been OK cars but they had no lineage and evidently had no staying power to establish one.
The Cayenne is not a "Porsche," just a very good, overpriced, SUV sold by Porsche. Same for the new Panamera which seems to be a total disappointment.
The question is, will PAG continue to evolve the 911/Boxster/Cayman in a meaningful way?
Re: A lucid perspective on PAG and Herr WW...
"Porsche" the car designated by Ferry Porsche himself and the engineers, and the directors of Porsche was to be the 928. It was a clean sheet design to create the best possible sports car that the engineers of Porsche could make. It took 7 years.
But as they say sh!t happens and the oil crisis of the 1970's forced changes. It was supposed to debut with a 6.0 liter engine.
Your lack of knowledge about the company is showing. The 924 has no connection to the 928 except for engine placement. It, the 924, was a stillborn effort for Audi, rebadged for porsche.
The 928 was not just an OK car, it was simply the best that the engineers who built Porsche's racing heritage could construct!
If you have a problem with the 928, you have a problem with Porsche. The Porsche run by Porsche.
And I still like the 911.
But as they say sh!t happens and the oil crisis of the 1970's forced changes. It was supposed to debut with a 6.0 liter engine.
Your lack of knowledge about the company is showing. The 924 has no connection to the 928 except for engine placement. It, the 924, was a stillborn effort for Audi, rebadged for porsche.
The 928 was not just an OK car, it was simply the best that the engineers who built Porsche's racing heritage could construct!
If you have a problem with the 928, you have a problem with Porsche. The Porsche run by Porsche.
And I still like the 911.
Re: A lucid perspective on PAG and Herr WW...
Quote:
racerx said:...Your lack of knowledge about the company is showing. The 924 has no connection to the 928 except for engine placement. It, the 924, was a stillborn effort for Audi, rebadged for porsche....
OK, OK! You say potato, I say potato...
Of course the 928 was a milestone design. It was the first to move the tranny backwards and that is an excellent idea. I know it well... my C6 does that too.
Of course Ferry, endorsed the 928... but that design is no different than my C6 or an F599 and many others. The classic Porsche is an all-in-the-rear (356/911) or a rear mid-engine 555/Boxster/Cayman.
And BTW... this is opinion... my opinion. I'm OK with yours, as I care less for what you think.
Mar 18, 2008 8:57:34 PM
- Atzporsche
- Rennteam VIP
-
- Loc: Vancouver , Canada
- Posts: 9118, Gallery
- Registered on: Feb 7, 2005
- Reply to: ADias
Re: A lucid perspective on PAG and Herr WW...
guys the 911 started it all for porsche and is indeed porsches classic image.
The 928 is a superb car in every way. It was actually meant to replace the 911.. but [beep] indeed happened. did you guys know it was the fastest production car on the market in its time...
I wish porsche would put as much effort in their new stuff, especially considering the budget available.
I am willing to argue that the 944 is a true porsche as well because it show cased their evolution ability rather than revolution ability of others. The 944 was Porsches evolution from the "audi" 924.
Sad reality is that the new 928, which will probably come out, will just be a quick and lazy sister of the Panamera, which is a quick and lazy concept alltogether
At the end of the day, i think the general car buyer is ruining the whole automobile industry.. Porsche is unfortunately falling into this secment to sell sell sell but this takes away their true root of being sports car like. THey got to keep making CGTs and 959s and GT1s to compensate for Cayenne, Panamera...
my $.02
The 928 is a superb car in every way. It was actually meant to replace the 911.. but [beep] indeed happened. did you guys know it was the fastest production car on the market in its time...
I wish porsche would put as much effort in their new stuff, especially considering the budget available.
I am willing to argue that the 944 is a true porsche as well because it show cased their evolution ability rather than revolution ability of others. The 944 was Porsches evolution from the "audi" 924.
Sad reality is that the new 928, which will probably come out, will just be a quick and lazy sister of the Panamera, which is a quick and lazy concept alltogether
At the end of the day, i think the general car buyer is ruining the whole automobile industry.. Porsche is unfortunately falling into this secment to sell sell sell but this takes away their true root of being sports car like. THey got to keep making CGTs and 959s and GT1s to compensate for Cayenne, Panamera...
my $.02
Mar 18, 2008 10:02:57 PM
- racerx
- Rennteam VIP
-
- Loc: 1985 porsche dealership , Bouvet Island
- Posts: 8751, Gallery
- Registered on: Jul 27, 2004
- Reply to: Atzporsche
Re: A lucid perspective on PAG and Herr WW...
Quote:
Atzporsche said:
guys the 911 started it all for porsche and is indeed porsches classic image.
The 928 is a superb car in every way. It was actually meant to replace the 911.. but [beep] indeed happened. did you guys know it was the fastest production car on the market in its time...
I wish porsche would put as much effort in their new stuff, especially considering the budget available.
I am willing to argue that the 944 is a true porsche as well because it show cased their evolution ability rather than revolution ability of others. The 944 was Porsches evolution from the "audi" 924.
Sad reality is that the new 928, which will probably come out, will just be a quick and lazy sister of the Panamera, which is a quick and lazy concept alltogether
At the end of the day, i think the general car buyer is ruining the whole automobile industry.. Porsche is unfortunately falling into this secment to sell sell sell but this takes away their true root of being sports car like. THey got to keep making CGTs and 959s and GT1s to compensate for Cayenne, Panamera...
my $.02
Wise beyond your years.
Re: A lucid perspective on PAG and Herr WW...
Someone here couldn't have said it better.
Nick:
"Porsche in the past was the purist car. They were built solely for that reason. THAT REALLY SAYS IT ALL !
To attract more customers, Porsche embarked on a program to have a Porsche in every garage which meant they needed to widen the appeal of their cars. In successfully doing so, they compromised the purist appeal and tarnish the badge with wholesale wide distribution of numerous models.
While it is true their strategy has worked, it also has laid the seeds of mediocrity. Porsche are no longer special regardless of their performance. What distinguishes a special car from a mediocre one is not performance but a multitude factors including exclusivity, styling, sensuousness, public perception and value. When you think about it, Porsche does give you some value in performance but the Porsche owner sacrifices other intangibles which add up to rather pedestrian car."
The rest is what happens when you whore out to the badge driving Lease Brigade.
The flip side of Porsches conquest of the automobile world is that maybe Porsche can afford to remake the Porsche brand into what made it great.
They can start by building one sports car that won't appeal to dental assistants, aged bankers or risk adverse IT managers.
Nick:
"Porsche in the past was the purist car. They were built solely for that reason. THAT REALLY SAYS IT ALL !
To attract more customers, Porsche embarked on a program to have a Porsche in every garage which meant they needed to widen the appeal of their cars. In successfully doing so, they compromised the purist appeal and tarnish the badge with wholesale wide distribution of numerous models.
While it is true their strategy has worked, it also has laid the seeds of mediocrity. Porsche are no longer special regardless of their performance. What distinguishes a special car from a mediocre one is not performance but a multitude factors including exclusivity, styling, sensuousness, public perception and value. When you think about it, Porsche does give you some value in performance but the Porsche owner sacrifices other intangibles which add up to rather pedestrian car."
The rest is what happens when you whore out to the badge driving Lease Brigade.
The flip side of Porsches conquest of the automobile world is that maybe Porsche can afford to remake the Porsche brand into what made it great.
They can start by building one sports car that won't appeal to dental assistants, aged bankers or risk adverse IT managers.
Mar 19, 2008 9:55:31 AM
- Spyderidol
- Rennteam Master
-
- Loc: Mozambique
- Posts: 5807, Gallery
- Registered on: Apr 25, 2007
- Reply to: JimFlat6
Re: A lucid perspective on PAG and Herr WW...
Could not agree more Jim.
This is where WW has his weakness. He doesn't seem to be able to get the "mix" right.
Everything he does is about "short term" profits; and he is very good at that.
Some of the investments he makes today may not be immediate "cash cows" , but they should be undertaken nonetheless, as they serve to guarantee the image and heritage of the company.
It is in this area that I have some serious concerns over his leadership.
This is where WW has his weakness. He doesn't seem to be able to get the "mix" right.
Everything he does is about "short term" profits; and he is very good at that.
Some of the investments he makes today may not be immediate "cash cows" , but they should be undertaken nonetheless, as they serve to guarantee the image and heritage of the company.
It is in this area that I have some serious concerns over his leadership.
Mar 19, 2008 12:32:26 PM
- easy_rider911
- Rennteam VIP
-
- Loc: London , United Kingdom
- Posts: 22190, Gallery
- Registered on: Nov 8, 2004
- Reply to: Spyderidol
Re: A lucid perspective on PAG and Herr WW...
For me, the proof of how Porsche has simply been chasing profits while appearing to forget (1) its sporty origins and (2) its philosophy of developing cars for purists is the release of so many 'special editions' which are in reality anything but special. Those special editions are just special deals on a particular combination of options! It's so transparently just a way of milking some extra money from their existing R&D investment.
I love my Porsche. It's very special to me but I won't kid myself into denying what seems obvious now.
IMHO Porsche's sporty pedigree is now largely historic and not so much 'current' anymore. As such, talking about race success and building cars for purists is more to do with clever marketing than making a statement based on reality.
I think nberry's post was 100% correct.
I love my Porsche. It's very special to me but I won't kid myself into denying what seems obvious now.
IMHO Porsche's sporty pedigree is now largely historic and not so much 'current' anymore. As such, talking about race success and building cars for purists is more to do with clever marketing than making a statement based on reality.
I think nberry's post was 100% correct.
Mar 19, 2008 4:41:37 PM
- reginos
- Rennteam VIP
-
- Loc: Nicosia , Cyprus
- Posts: 12130, Gallery
- Registered on: Mar 20, 2005
- Reply to: easy_rider911
Re: A lucid perspective on PAG and Herr WW...
Quote:
easy_rider911 said:
For me, the proof of how Porsche has simply been chasing profits while appearing to forget (1) its sporty origins and (2) its philosophy of developing cars for purists is the release of so many 'special editions' which are in reality anything but special. Those special editions are just special deals on a particular combination of options! It's so transparently just a way of milking some extra money from their existing R&D investment.
I love my Porsche. It's very special to me but I won't kid myself into denying what seems obvious now.
IMHO Porsche's sporty pedigree is now largely historic and not so much 'current' anymore. As such, talking about race success and building cars for purists is more to do with clever marketing than making a statement based on reality.
I think nberry's post was 100% correct.
Strange that they won overall the Sebring 12H last weekend, one of the most celebrated races in the USA.
When I read about the "purist era" I wonder when such period of time existed. Because in the 60s "purists" complained about the 914, in the 70s-80s about the 924/944 and in the 90s-00s about anything watercooled. IMO the present range has nothing to be jealous of engineering-wise and from the sporty driving point of view from any other Porsche period and from any other manufacturer for that matter.
Like everything in life things move on and staying attached to sterotypes and formulae of the past makes us look like romantic fools.
Mar 19, 2008 5:56:44 PM
- 964C2
- Expert
-
- Loc: Dallas, TX , United States
- Posts: 1825, Gallery
- Registered on: May 11, 2004
- Reply to: easy_rider911
Re: A lucid perspective on PAG and Herr WW...
I think as long as Porsche continues to make road cars like the GT2 and GT3 and continues racing, we'll be OK, if they stop both, then I'll worry.
I remember in the early 60's all the Porsche purists saying the last "real" Porsche was the 356
I remember in the early 60's all the Porsche purists saying the last "real" Porsche was the 356
Mar 19, 2008 6:05:50 PM
- Porsche-Jeck
- Rennteam Master
-
- Loc: Rheinland , Germany
- Posts: 4856, Gallery
- Registered on: Jun 27, 2005
- Reply to: 964C2
Mar 19, 2008 6:28:07 PM
- Atzporsche
- Rennteam VIP
-
- Loc: Vancouver , Canada
- Posts: 9118, Gallery
- Registered on: Feb 7, 2005
- Reply to: Porsche-Jeck
Re: A lucid perspective on PAG and Herr WW...
Quote:
Porsche-Jeck said:Quote:
964C2 said:
I remember in the early 60's all the Porsche purists saying the last "real" Porsche was the 356
yeah cause the thing will probably drive itself with some magnetic stuff and be battery powered... probably also look hidious
Mar 19, 2008 6:41:27 PM
- doyle
- Co-Pilot
-
- Loc:
- Posts: 160, Gallery
- Registered on: Oct 1, 2003
- Reply to: Porsche-Jeck
Re: A lucid perspective on PAG and Herr WW...
The 924's connection to Audi was in an Audi engine and having been built in an Audi plant, but it was very much a Porsche and never intended as an Audi. An early VW maybe, but not an Audi.
These so called "purists" have never been enough to salvage the brand and hence we got Porsche's much unloved bastards like the 924/944 and the more recent Boxsters and Cayenne's. Ironically it's these bastard children that have allowed the "purists" to keep enjoying the 911 line. The same 911 line that continues to hamper the development of better models. The 951 was killed because it was getting to close in speed to the 911. The 928 was killed for the same reason. The Cayman was intentionally designed with one arm tied behind it's back so as to not threaten the 911's top dog position.
Personally, I have no problem with Porsche expanding and making money. Does it dilute the brand? Perhaps but brand exclusivity is a thing of the past. A nostalgic memory of yesteryear. I'm glad that companies like Porsche are forward thinking enough to know they must move on to survive. Ferrari couldn't have don it without Fiat. Lamborghini could not have done it without Chrysler, VW, Maytag, Whirlpool, and the myriad of other owners they have had through the years. GM has been semi-successful in differentiating the Corvette from the likes of the Chevettes, the Cobalts, and the Celebrity's that have tarnished the highways of this world, but in the end, Corvette as a standalone product would never have survived through the [beep] years of the mid eighties.
Like it or not progress moves on and purists are simply people who refuse to acknowledge that progress.
These so called "purists" have never been enough to salvage the brand and hence we got Porsche's much unloved bastards like the 924/944 and the more recent Boxsters and Cayenne's. Ironically it's these bastard children that have allowed the "purists" to keep enjoying the 911 line. The same 911 line that continues to hamper the development of better models. The 951 was killed because it was getting to close in speed to the 911. The 928 was killed for the same reason. The Cayman was intentionally designed with one arm tied behind it's back so as to not threaten the 911's top dog position.
Personally, I have no problem with Porsche expanding and making money. Does it dilute the brand? Perhaps but brand exclusivity is a thing of the past. A nostalgic memory of yesteryear. I'm glad that companies like Porsche are forward thinking enough to know they must move on to survive. Ferrari couldn't have don it without Fiat. Lamborghini could not have done it without Chrysler, VW, Maytag, Whirlpool, and the myriad of other owners they have had through the years. GM has been semi-successful in differentiating the Corvette from the likes of the Chevettes, the Cobalts, and the Celebrity's that have tarnished the highways of this world, but in the end, Corvette as a standalone product would never have survived through the [beep] years of the mid eighties.
Like it or not progress moves on and purists are simply people who refuse to acknowledge that progress.
Re: A lucid perspective on PAG and Herr WW...
Quote:
reginos said:
Strange that they won overall the Sebring 12H last weekend, one of the most celebrated races in the USA.
When I read about the "purist era" I wonder when such period of time existed. Because in the 60s "purists" complained about the 914, in the 70s-80s about the 924/944 and in the 90s-00s about anything watercooled. IMO the present range has nothing to be jealous of engineering-wise and from the sporty driving point of view from any other Porsche period and from any other manufacturer for that matter.
Like everything in life things move on and staying attached to sterotypes and formulae of the past makes us look like romantic fools.
Well said, not any purer perhaps, but a high point had to be 1985 with total domination of F1, endurance racing, and the high end sports car market.
Their engineering is still superb, its the design that could use a little help. And I would like to see a 575 hp, ceramic braked, $145,000.00 928 in a Porsche showroom today.
Re: A lucid perspective on PAG and Herr WW...
Quote:
racerx said:Quote:
reginos said:
Strange that they won overall the Sebring 12H last weekend, one of the most celebrated races in the USA.
When I read about the "purist era" I wonder when such period of time existed. Because in the 60s "purists" complained about the 914, in the 70s-80s about the 924/944 and in the 90s-00s about anything watercooled. IMO the present range has nothing to be jealous of engineering-wise and from the sporty driving point of view from any other Porsche period and from any other manufacturer for that matter.
Like everything in life things move on and staying attached to sterotypes and formulae of the past makes us look like romantic fools.
Well said, not any purer perhaps, but a high point had to be 1985 with total domination of F1, endurance racing, and the high end sports car market.
Their engineering is still superb, its the design that could use a little help. And I would like to see a 575 hp, ceramic braked, $145,000.00 928 in a Porsche showroom today.
Why only 575?
Give the top model the CGT engine with sequential turbochargers and 700 PS. Make it the fastest thing on the road, if you mean business. The 928 used to be one of the fastest production cars available, so it would need to repeat that.
Re: A lucid perspective on PAG and Herr WW...
I did some math, Crash. If the 928 was to be relaunched and keep its position in the porsche line-up relative to the turbo as it existed in the mid 1980's to today's 997tt, the numbers I mentioned would be the numbers.
575 hp, 550 tq, 145K price, 215 top speed, but 0-60 3.8.
Those numbers give guys who were too young to know those days today's equivalent pound for pound if parity existed and the 928 was still in production. They are not pie in the sky wishes for some new version.
Since the luxury and engineering was already there, the only additions I could see would be a HUD display, paddle shifting F1 gearbox, and leveling suuspension.
Today's luxury market is very different supporting much more production than those days. If it existed today with those spec's, I think it would take the majority of Aston, Maserati, R8, and a sizable chunk of lambo and ferrari sales.
Seeing a nice one drive by is still an awesome sight, only saw 1 in the last year!
575 hp, 550 tq, 145K price, 215 top speed, but 0-60 3.8.
Those numbers give guys who were too young to know those days today's equivalent pound for pound if parity existed and the 928 was still in production. They are not pie in the sky wishes for some new version.
Since the luxury and engineering was already there, the only additions I could see would be a HUD display, paddle shifting F1 gearbox, and leveling suuspension.
Today's luxury market is very different supporting much more production than those days. If it existed today with those spec's, I think it would take the majority of Aston, Maserati, R8, and a sizable chunk of lambo and ferrari sales.
Seeing a nice one drive by is still an awesome sight, only saw 1 in the last year!
Re: A lucid perspective on PAG and Herr WW...
Quote:
racerx said:
I did some math, Crash. If the 928 was to be relaunched and keep its position in the porsche line-up relative to the turbo as it existed in the mid 1980's to today's 997tt, the numbers I mentioned would be the numbers.
575 hp, 550 tq, 145K price, 215 top speed, but 0-60 3.8.
Hey, didn't Porsche just release a front engine 928 style coupe, with even faster 0-60 time than 3.8 sec, incredible handling, F1 tranny, and for Cayman prices?? Oops, sorry, that was Nissan..
Re: A lucid perspective on PAG and Herr WW...
Quote:
4trac said:Quote:
racerx said:
I did some math, Crash. If the 928 was to be relaunched and keep its position in the porsche line-up relative to the turbo as it existed in the mid 1980's to today's 997tt, the numbers I mentioned would be the numbers.
575 hp, 550 tq, 145K price, 215 top speed, but 0-60 3.8.
Hey, didn't Porsche just release a front engine 928 style coupe, with even faster 0-60 time than 3.8 sec, incredible handling, F1 tranny, and for Cayman prices?? Oops, sorry, that was Nissan..
Oh, you mean the amazing, computer-controlled origami? A 997TT will make minced meat out of it on the Autobahn.
Mar 20, 2008 3:01:21 AM
- connoisseur
- Senior
-
- Loc: Nebraska
- Posts: 752, Gallery
- Registered on: Jan 30, 2005
- Reply to: reginos
Re: A lucid perspective on PAG and Herr WW...
If the economic scenario outlined by The Groom and others for the coming decade comes to fruition, then buying Volkswagen makes perfectly good sense. But using VW only to expand their offerings in the upscale market will only result in their desctuction.
Forum
About Rennteam | Help | Terms of use | Privacy Policy | Support | Contact | Imprint | Archive
Powered by
Community
and
