Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: Oversteered Again - No Help From PCM - Page1

Nov 14, 2007 2:53:40 AM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004

Oversteered Again - No Help From PCM

Took a familiar corner a bit frisky, lots of viz. lots of room, nobody in sight. Unfortunately the road was a little damp.

Car oversteers, shudders, rear swings out. Prepared and forewarned I just bailed and purposefully let off gas (going pretty slow, lots of room) and glare at dash looking for PCM light: nothing.

With my 997 C2S I knew exactly what would happen on this familiar turn: PCM nanny would catch the little grip loss and take over admirably and ruin the fun; no big whoop.

I would be very grateful if you could point me to the thread on this Turbo Dynamic Traction Control or PSM or steering set up problem again. I didn't nail it down the last time.

Also, any other input would be equally appreciated.

P.S. was NOT in "sport" mode.

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Nov 14, 2007 3:40:01 AM

Dan L: Expert; Loc: Santa Barbara, CA , United States; Posts: 1957, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 2, 2006; Reply to: MMD

Re: Oversteered Again - No Help From PCM

Are you new to Porsches with rear engines? (New, being, less than 3 years). These 997s are fairly forgiving (the earlier 911s were very tricky). If you get the chance to drive (frisky like) an early 911 you will advance very quickly with these later ones.

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Nov 14, 2007 4:57:10 AM

Heist: Rennteam Master; Loc: Washington, DC , United States; Posts: 4147, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 15, 2007; Reply to: Dan L

Re: Oversteered Again - No Help From PCM

Yikes! You let OFF the gas in a rear end oversteer? You're lucky you didn't get SNAP oversteer on the correction.

PCM cannot overcome physics ... if the light didn't come on though, I'd take it to the shop for inspection of the system.

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Nov 14, 2007 5:09:01 AM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: Dan L

Re: Oversteered Again - No Help From PCM

Quote:
Dan L said:
Are you new to Porsches with rear engines?

Nope. I owned a '68 911T a long time ago. Several friends and relatives have had 911s along the way too. Familiar with that rear end weight bias in earier cars.

What bugs me is this current P-car doesn't seem to be doing anything "modern" to save my a**.

The current TT PSM seems to be working because it has intervened before (once on a slippery bridge deck) and the dash light went on.

Today I believe it should have demonstrated a lot more concern for my (and it's) well-being (not that I expect much

)

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Nov 14, 2007 5:13:47 AM

eclou: Veteran; Loc: Texas , United States; Posts: 1182, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 4, 2006; Reply to: MMD

Re: Oversteered Again - No Help From PCM

PSM saved my a$$ in a slide at 120mph on the track. No complaints here

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Nov 14, 2007 5:19:00 AM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: Heist

Re: Oversteered Again - No Help From PCM

Quote:
Heist said:
Yikes! You let OFF the gas in a rear end oversteer? You're lucky you didn't get SNAP oversteer on the correction.

Yes, "after" the oversteer, but things were pretty calm by the time I let off gas. It essentially was a fast right turn, so I guess we're not talking huge amounts of kinetic energy. IOW, I didn't want to add more power or even sustain power because the car didn't seem to be doing anything to help me; sounds _waaaay_ stupid I know, but the speed wasn't a big factor.

I was kinda pissed at no PSM light and wanted the action stopped. There was no snap back or fishtailing; not fast enough?

I definitely understand that letting up on gas in a turn lessens grip of the rubber and can lead to a very wild ride. There was no "terror-induced" uplift of the right foot to make things worse.

What bugs me is with my 997S on the _same_ turn I _would_ get some PSM intervention if I got carried away or the road was damp.

With the Turbo, on this damp surface, I got nothing from the PSM dispite the a loss of traction and a partial sidesways slide out of the rear end.

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Nov 14, 2007 5:14:02 PM

AAHTT: Senior; Loc: san diego , United States; Posts: 654, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 21, 2006; Reply to: MMD

Re: Oversteered Again - No Help From PCM

Quote:
MMD said:
Took a familiar corner a bit frisky, lots of viz. lots of room, nobody in sight. Unfortunately the road was a little damp.

Car oversteers, shudders, rear swings out. Prepared and forewarned I just bailed and purposefully let off gas (going pretty slow, lots of room) and glare at dash looking for PCM light: nothing.

With my 997 C2S I knew exactly what would happen on this familiar turn: PCM nanny would catch the little grip loss and take over admirably and ruin the fun; no big whoop.

I would be very grateful if you could point me to the thread on this Turbo Dynamic Traction Control or PSM or steering set up problem again. I didn't nail it down the last time.

Also, any other input would be equally appreciated.

P.S. was NOT in "sport" mode.

on the 997TT PSM is configured to allow a certain amount of oversteer before it intervenes and this is what you experienced. My light doesn't come ON with mild oversteer either. The other explanation is that you missed the light because it is there for only a fraction of a second at low speeds.

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Nov 14, 2007 7:53:48 PM

Nickoz: Co-Pilot; Loc: NSW Australia; Posts: 171, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 11, 2007; Reply to: MMD

Re: Oversteered Again - No Help From PCM

FWIW, although I'm not new to rear engine cars, I am new to the TT. I plan to take my car to a local advanced driver training school and throw it around on a wet skid pan for an hour or 2 to find out exactly what happens at the limit. A couple of times in the last few days since picking up my car I've done manouvers which I would have expected the PSM to take an interest in but like you, no light on the dash. My guess is that the system is indeed fairly forgiving and doesn't interfere unless really necessary.

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Nov 14, 2007 8:09:10 PM

TT Surgeon: Senior; Loc: Long Island, NY , United States; Posts: 783, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 28, 2004; Reply to: Nickoz

Re: Oversteered Again - No Help From PCM

Never let off in a 911 in an oversteer situation. My PSM has saved my ass at least twice on the track. The car is perfect.

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Nov 15, 2007 2:49:24 AM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: Nickoz

Re: Oversteered Again - No Help From PCM

Quote:
Nickoz said:
FWIW, although I'm not new to rear engine cars, I am new to the TT. I plan to take my car to a local advanced driver training school and throw it around on a wet skid pan for an hour or 2 to find out exactly what happens at the limit. A couple of times in the last few days since picking up my car I've done manouvers which I would have expected the PSM to take an interest in but like you, no light on the dash. My guess is that the system is indeed fairly forgiving and doesn't interfere unless really necessary.

Hummmm..., I'm glad you experienced something similar.

Just wondering if the PSM intervention of the Turbo occurs at different situations and, because of the 4WD, does it feel distinctly different from that of the C2S?

BTW, you've got THE right idea Nickoz: take the car to the track and thrash it (within reason, of course

) Please let us know what you experience!!!!

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Nov 15, 2007 6:42:29 AM

Bux: Newbie; Loc: Napa Valley, CA; Posts: 12, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 28, 2006; Reply to: MMD

Re: Oversteered Again - No Help From PCM

ditto TT's input...don't let off the gas.

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Nov 15, 2007 8:27:11 AM

cannga: Expert; Loc: Los Angeles's "twisties" :-) , United States; Posts: 1940, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 6, 2005; Reply to: MMD

Re: Oversteered Again - No Help From PCM

Hi MMD,

I'm (obviously) neither a race driver, or even an advanced amateur, or even a "better" driver, just adding to the discussion here.

If you let go of the throttle in the middle of the turn or coming into it too fast, I don't think PSM *can* prevent a rear swing or spin as this is just the law of physics. I'd think PSM would activate subsequently, not during the event of the swing, where really no amount of slowing down the wheel to grab traction will prevent the tail from wanting to follow momentum.

Same thing with wet road (I know you only mentioned "damp," btw were the tires cold too?). I don't know if PSM would help or activate DURING a complete break of tire traction where tire is sliding sideway. (The extreme of this situation is a sharp turn on icy road--car will slide per forward momentum and no amount of PSM would prevent this slide.)

A couple times now you've mentioned tail swing into corner? First, take care! Otherwise: I don't know enough to guess what happened, other than of course you were playing with/testing the system and obviously the speed was too high. The only time that I've found this car to be tail happy, as expected and as you might have experienced, is accelerating into turn, realizing I'm too fast, and let go of gas pedal, to get into more "trouble."

With the amazing amount of power and torque involved here, I am even more careful now to accelerate only after apex, and going into the turn slower.

Quote:
MMD said:
Took a familiar corner a bit frisky, lots of viz. lots of room, nobody in sight. Unfortunately the road was a little damp.

Car oversteers, shudders, rear swings out. Prepared and forewarned I just bailed and purposefully let off gas (going pretty slow, lots of room) and glare at dash looking for PCM light: nothing.

With my 997 C2S I knew exactly what would happen on this familiar turn: PCM nanny would catch the little grip loss and take over admirably and ruin the fun; no big whoop.

I would be very grateful if you could point me to the thread on this Turbo Dynamic Traction Control or PSM or steering set up problem again. I didn't nail it down the last time.

Also, any other input would be equally appreciated.

P.S. was NOT in "sport" mode.

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Nov 15, 2007 9:06:04 AM

wtsnet: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Bath, UK; Posts: 2430, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 19, 2004; Reply to: cannga

Re: Oversteered Again - No Help From PCM

MMD, is your issue that you're not sure that the PSM is working properly?
Can you take it to a skid pan to try to deliberately provoke it?
I've had a couple of times in my Boxster when I'm sure the PSM/Traction control should have kicked in, but no light blinked. Best I could do was take it on a wet field, and I did get some sort of light flicker on breaking traction, but it wasn't a big enough or flat enough field to try anything properly dynamic! (Plus, there were people watching - it was a public car park field).

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Nov 15, 2007 2:13:36 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59590, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: wtsnet

Re: Oversteered Again - No Help From PCM

The PSM can't beat physics, just for the book.

Btw: it is mandatory to get a proper suspension alignment/etc. AFTER picking up the car at the dealer/factory because from my experience, it is never OK.

Mr. Lieb from RUF did wonders with my 997 Turbo regarding the suspension, if you can put your hands on his "values" (somebody in the forum mentioned the details in a thread a while ago), you'll be very very happy.

Still...like I said...PSM can't beat physics.

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Nov 15, 2007 3:51:38 PM

Alex_997TT: Rennteam Master; Loc: Reading , United Kingdom; Posts: 3320, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 20, 2005; Reply to: RC

Re: Oversteered Again - No Help From PCM

I can't find the Ruf alignment specs someone posted, but I did find this long discussion on Turbo handling:

http://www.rennteam.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=366203&page=&fpart=1&vc=1

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Nov 17, 2007 4:01:56 AM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: wtsnet

Re: Oversteered Again - No Help From PCM

Quote:
wtsnet said:
MMD, is your issue that you're not sure that the PSM is working properly?

I dunno what's going on with this car. The other cars I have always make clear what they're doing.

I have my "circuit" (familiar rural roads). Sometimes I drive frisky but not wrecklessly. What's funny is my M3, BoxsterS and former 997S all handled those roads well and gave me lots of confidence in their handling.

Now comes the TT (traded the 997S), I'm on the same roads and I'm losing control of the TT! Twice!

All I can say is I'm _not_ anywhere near beating the cr*p outta the Turbo (THAT would be insane!) and it's behaving like it wants to kill me. Driving it "friskily" pretty much like the other cars. In the past all the other cars have intervened like good nannys when I'm doing something _almost_ excessive.

Turbo "let go" twice and I wasn't even being excessive (You know, I'm not even skilled enough to reach "excesssive" with this car!). I guess I was driving it thru turns like a NA Carrera. Basically the only time those turbos are powering-up the car is when I'm passing in a straight line.

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Nov 17, 2007 4:06:00 AM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: Alex_997TT

Re: Oversteered Again - No Help From PCM

Quote:
Alex_ said:
I can't find the Ruf alignment specs someone posted, but I did find this long discussion on Turbo handling:

http://www.rennteam.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=366203&page=&fpart=1&vc=1

I'm very grateful for the link, thank you.

I also feel indebted to you other guys. I promise to get to the bottom of this (eventually-things are bizzy now) with my car/situation and report back.

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Nov 17, 2007 5:44:49 AM

Nickoz: Co-Pilot; Loc: NSW Australia; Posts: 171, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 11, 2007; Reply to: MMD

Re: Oversteered Again - No Help From PCM

I'm tempted to suggest there may be something amiss with the way your car is set up. I've just switched from a very well balanced Boxster S to my new TT, and my impression to date is that the TT is much, much more sure footed. I've pushed it hard in corners where the Boxster would be sliding out the tail for sure but the TT feels like it's on rails, and so far not even a hint of intervention form PSM (sport mode on). Took another 911 driver for a long run through the twisties today and he was astonished by the level of grip. Makes me wonder about suspension setup and in particular poor wheel alignment when I hear about the negative experiences some people have. I wonder if it varies country to country? I couldn't be happier with the car.

In fact, on a slightly different matter I'm now shelving the plans I had for ECU and exhaust upgrades. The power and torque exceeds my most optomistic expectations, even at this early stage (1000 kms). During hard acceleration when the car hooks up I'm pretty close to the limits of adhesion, even on dry straight roads. It's astonishing, I tell ya! I'm now happily feeling I got very good value for money with this car, even at the ludicrous price we have to pay down under.

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Nov 17, 2007 2:25:08 PM

jpcourt: Co-Pilot; Loc: Connecticut , United States; Posts: 267, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 2, 2006; Reply to: Nickoz

Re: Oversteered Again - No Help From PCM

Here is a quick thought, is it getting cold where you are, the tires we have on these cars do not like cold weather at all, I had mine out the other day and had a very similar experience, but I know it was because the tires were cold. One thing I can tell you about the PSM is that it is set much more aggressively than it was on my C4S and it does not kick in as quickly.

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Nov 18, 2007 2:44:03 AM

WBH: Expert; Loc: CA; Posts: 1963, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 2, 2004; Reply to: MMD

Re: Oversteered Again - No Help From PCM

Quote:
MMD said:
Quote:
wtsnet said:
MMD, is your issue that you're not sure that the PSM is working properly?

[/quot

I dunno what's going on with this car. The other cars I have always make clear what they're doing.

I have my "circuit" (familiar rural roads). Sometimes I drive frisky but not wrecklessly. What's funny is my M3, BoxsterS and former 997S all handled those roads well and gave me lots of confidence in their handling.

Now comes the TT (traded the 997S), I'm on the same roads and I'm losing control of the TT! Twice!

All I can say is I'm _not_ anywhere near beating the cr*p outta the Turbo (THAT would be insane!) and it's behaving like it wants to kill me. Driving it "friskily" pretty much like the other cars. In the past all the other cars have intervened like good nannys when I'm doing something _almost_ excessive.

Turbo "let go" twice and I wasn't even being excessive (You know, I'm not even skilled enough to reach "excesssive" with this car!). I guess I was driving it thru turns like a NA Carrera. Basically the only time those turbos are powering-up the car is when I'm passing in a straight line.

In scenarios/contexts you describe, doubt a non-faulty 997TT would destabilize so easily...

Have dealer chk tire P's; alignment; and any PSM fault codes....

Many P's seemingly are delivered w/erroneous tire P's, misalignment, etc.....combination of shipping impact and inept dealers....also, stresses of poor pavement may create post-deliv misalignments and wheel deformations, even if dealer was competent in prepping car for deliv...

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Nov 18, 2007 4:57:41 PM

Silver Bullet: Veteran; Loc: Canada; Posts: 1126, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 24, 2004; Reply to: WBH

Re: Oversteered Again - No Help From PCM

Oversteer occurs when the rear tires slip and the front don't, or the rear tires slip more than the front (the latter is a four wheel drift and it is extremely difficult to understand precisely what is happening in those situations, so I'll ignore it for now).

There are 3 main ways to induce oversteer (or traction loss / slip of the rear wheels)

1) lighten the rear end: this is the well known 'lift off the gas oversteer'. You are in a turn, it feels too fast/scary, you intuitively lift off the gas, weight transfers to the front wheels so they get more grip and the rear tires lose grip, and the momentum of the turn (combined with a rear weight bias) swing the rear end out. A 911 is less prone to have this occur in the first place because of the rear weight bias, but when it does happen - look out.

2) Brake the rear wheels only. Everybody is familiar with this one - you pull the handbrake in a turn so the rear wheels slow (or lock) and must slide.

3) Power oversteer: In this situation, the throttle is on and forces the rear wheels to spin faster than the cars speed would otherwise allow. Too much throttle cause this, and the treatment for it is to come off of the throttle, whether you are in a 911 or any car. This is in fact how PSM intervenes in power oversteer - it cuts the throttle.

The point of the above is to discourage the adage that one should NEVER come off the gas in an oversteer situation in a 911. This is an over simplification and it is not true.

The 997TT has apparently been designed to naturally favor a little oversteer. The 996TT and 996C4 series were quite prone to understeer for a variety of reasons, and Porsche's response to that were the changes introduced in the 997TT. Many auto journals have identified the "loose' rear end of the 997TT. You have to be careful with all that torque. Smoothness, patience, practice and experience are even more important.

I think the comments about the colder temps and tire grip are key (I notice this all the time now!), and I also would second the tip to have the alignment, camber and toe checked because they are frequently off "out of the box" so to speak.

Regarding the PSM light - I have been told by driving instructors that PSM was intervening during lapping sessions at the track. I retorted that I never felt anything and that the light on the dash never came on. Nevertheless, they were quite sure that something was correcting my mistakes. I've never resoled the issue. The question is: can PSM intervene so quickly and for so short a time as to do so without activating the dash light? I'd love an answer to that one.

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Nov 18, 2007 5:43:53 PM

cannga: Expert; Loc: Los Angeles's "twisties" :-) , United States; Posts: 1940, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 6, 2005; Reply to: Silver Bullet

Re: Oversteered Again - No Help From PCM

Hello Silver Bullet, very good post.

>>>>>
The point of the above is to discourage the adage that one should NEVER come off the gas in an oversteer situation in a 911. This is an over simplification and it is not true.
>>>>>>>>>>

What you say is, of course, correct, however, I think there is a subtle difference between what you wrote and the point stressed in previous posts (both points are correct, but are different), which is: "Don't put yourself in a position where you have to lift off throttle in a turn because it will cause oversteer of a bad kind, the kind that there is almost no happy solution to."

I think techniques such as trail braking, or slow-in-fast-out, are approaches to prevent above.

Again, just my humble opinions; I am no race driver!

Quote:
Silver Bullet said:
.....
There are 3 main ways to induce oversteer (or traction loss / slip of the rear wheels)

1) lighten the rear end: this is the well known 'lift off the gas oversteer'. You are in a turn, it feels too fast/scary, you intuitively lift off the gas, weight transfers to the front wheels so they get more grip and the rear tires lose grip, and the momentum of the turn (combined with a rear weight bias) swing the rear end out. A 911 is less prone to have this occur in the first place because of the rear weight bias, but when it does happen - look out.

2) Brake the rear wheels only. Everybody is familiar with this one - you pull the handbrake in a turn so the rear wheels slow (or lock) and must slide.

3) Power oversteer: In this situation, the throttle is on and forces the rear wheels to spin faster than the cars speed would otherwise allow. Too much throttle cause this, and the treatment for it is to come off of the throttle, whether you are in a 911 or any car. This is in fact how PSM intervenes in power oversteer - it cuts the throttle.

The point of the above is to discourage the adage that one should NEVER come off the gas in an oversteer situation in a 911. This is an over simplification and it is not true.

.....

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Nov 18, 2007 8:14:08 PM

AAHTT: Senior; Loc: san diego , United States; Posts: 654, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 21, 2006; Reply to: Silver Bullet

Re: Oversteered Again - No Help From PCM

Quote:
Silver Bullet said:
Regarding the PSM light - I have been told by driving instructors that PSM was intervening during lapping sessions at the track. I retorted that I never felt anything and that the light on the dash never came on. Nevertheless, they were quite sure that something was correcting my mistakes. I've never resoled the issue. The question is: can PSM intervene so quickly and for so short a time as to do so without activating the dash light? I'd love an answer to that one.

you will see the light flicker when the car is helping you, if you don't then it is not helping you. PSM decreases throttle input like you said and it feels like the car just cut off the gas for a fraction of a second.
In my last DE the PSM became so annoyingly intrusive after a few laps that I decided to turn it off which improved my line so much, the instructor sitting there couldn't believe the huge difference with and without PSM.
Once you get used to the power, the car is so much more fun on the track without PSM, especially "slow" events like AX and DEs with tight courses.

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Nov 18, 2007 9:10:33 PM

Dan L: Expert; Loc: Santa Barbara, CA , United States; Posts: 1957, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 2, 2006; Reply to: AAHTT

Re: Oversteered Again - No Help From PCM

I wouldn't count on the car saving you when you are pushing the physics limits with the turbo. Some intervention will occur but not enough if you get into severe trouble. Certainly check it out (suspension) and also consider other tires. Many years ago I absolutely hated the Pirelli P7 tire as I never had any warning when i would break loose. I switched to Yokohama A008s and never looked back. Tires make a big difference.

Dan

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Nov 19, 2007 2:23:57 AM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: Dan L

Re: Oversteered Again - No Help From PCM

Hey Dan, what do you think of Michelin Pilot Sports? That's what's on mine. I'll pay more attention to what y'all say about tires in the future.

Silver Bullet: thank you.

Here's a PTM summary.

PTM seems "bullet proof." Makes me even more freaked that I had these incidents of oversteer.

It would seem if I expected PTM to aid PSM in correcting my oversteer I would be _required_ to keep foot on throttle.

Is this correct? (i.e. see last paragraph). Does PTM contribute anything to PSM system when you ease off the gas?

Seems like you should "never" ease off with this car unless you've gotten to the bottom of a ditch.

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Nov 19, 2007 5:43:29 AM

Dan L: Expert; Loc: Santa Barbara, CA , United States; Posts: 1957, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 2, 2006; Reply to: MMD

Re: Oversteered Again - No Help From PCM

MMD--no time on the current Pirellis or Michelis. Been on the Bridgestones with my Carrera S and have enjoyed their handling and long life.

dan

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Nov 19, 2007 11:38:24 AM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: MMD

Re: Oversteered Again - No Help From PCM

Quote:
MMD said:
PTM seems "bullet proof."

So did the Titanic. They've obviously made several changes to the newer cars in order to make them handle properly.

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Motor Sp.	24-Hour race Nürburgring 2018	5/25/23 10:42 PM Grant	11272	55

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Oversteered Again - No Help From PCM

Re: Oversteered Again - No Help From PCM

Re: Oversteered Again - No Help From PCM

Re: Oversteered Again - No Help From PCM

Re: Oversteered Again - No Help From PCM

Re: Oversteered Again - No Help From PCM

Re: Oversteered Again - No Help From PCM

Re: Oversteered Again - No Help From PCM

Re: Oversteered Again - No Help From PCM

Re: Oversteered Again - No Help From PCM

Re: Oversteered Again - No Help From PCM

Re: Oversteered Again - No Help From PCM

Re: Oversteered Again - No Help From PCM

Re: Oversteered Again - No Help From PCM

Re: Oversteered Again - No Help From PCM

Re: Oversteered Again - No Help From PCM

Re: Oversteered Again - No Help From PCM

Re: Oversteered Again - No Help From PCM

Re: Oversteered Again - No Help From PCM

Re: Oversteered Again - No Help From PCM

Re: Oversteered Again - No Help From PCM

Re: Oversteered Again - No Help From PCM

Re: Oversteered Again - No Help From PCM

Re: Oversteered Again - No Help From PCM

Re: Oversteered Again - No Help From PCM

Re: Oversteered Again - No Help From PCM

Re: Oversteered Again - No Help From PCM

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