Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: Panamera: Milking the Porsche cow? - Page1

Jul 20, 2007 5:56:18 AM

WBH: Expert; Loc: CA; Posts: 1963, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 2, 2004; Reply to: Emperor

Re: Panamera: Milking the Porsche cow?

Perhaps 90%+ of buyers of P/F (or any other mfr) are not very serious car guys....they're simply older guys w/a few dollars trying to buy an image...

Mfrs need to engineer/sell profitable products to survive...

Unfortunately, even in CA/NYC, not enough affluent guys are serious car guys (and frequent-repeat buyers of new $150K+ cars) to allow any mfr to simply focus on developing products to serve a narrow, hard-core, manly niche....thus, the need for equal-opportunity, transgender products like Cayenne/Panam/Gayman/Coxster/convertibles of all sorts.....not that there's anything wrong w/that....

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Jul 20, 2007 12:57:10 PM

EricAlain: Veteran; Loc: Paris, France , France; Posts: 1037, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 14, 2002; Reply to: WBH

Re: Panamera: Milking the Porsche cow?

There is also another point that has not been discussed yet: Emerging markets.

Going forward, Porsche's sales growth will come from so called emerging markets (20% of unit sales today). This side of the business has been growing very rapidly since the Cayenne introduction (sales excl North America & Europe 14% in FY 03/04, 18% in FY 05/06)

In those markets, most of the time, the "sports car" segment is non existent for many reasons (safety, road conditions, social issues, ...) therefore for Porsche the only way to address these markets is to have products like the Cayenne or the Panamera.

The Cayenne represent 35% of Porsche total sales, in some regions it's much higher.

Middle East: Cayenne 68%
China (excl. HKG) Cayenne 81%
Russia: Cayenne 84%
Latin America: Cayenne 64%

Dealers (in emerging markets) to be proftable must have more than one product to sell hence the crucial need for the Panamera.

Also in some countries like China, if your are wealthy, you have a chauffeur. I don't picture anyone sitting in the back of a 997 TT with the chauffeur driving the car ....

From what I understand the Panamera price point is likely to be at the end of the 911, hence much higher than the Cayenne.

Bottom line the Cayenne will become the Boxster/Cayman of the 4-door line-up while the Panamera will be the equivalent of the 911

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Jul 20, 2007 1:34:41 PM

doyle: Co-Pilot; Loc:; Posts: 160, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 1, 2003; Reply to: EricAlain

Re: Panamera: Milking the Porsche cow?

Damn that Ford for diluting the brand and branching out from the model T.

Porsche has well proven where the direction of the company goes when remaining "pure", whatever "pure" means. Lest we remember the dilution of the brand with the lowly 914, or heaven forbid we make any mention of how the 924/944 series saved the company from absorption at best, extinction at worst. The simple fact is that Porsche is the sole remaining independent sportscar manufacturer. Ferrari cannot claim that, Lamborghini cannot claim that, Bently, Aston Martin, nor Audi can claim that.

I would rather see Porsche owning VAG rather than a VAG, GM, Ford (take your pick) owning Porsche. If that can only be accomplished through the diversification of the brand through Cayenne or Panamera sales, then so bit it. I would rather see Porsche put more cars on the road that see Porsche used to put more Fords on the road.

Liken this to the Apple fans who were dismayed when the Mac was released...or the Mac fans who were dismayed when the iPod or the iPhone were released. Surely these all help to spread the product offering.

Many choose, pessimistically, to name this a dilution of the brand. I prefer to be more optimistic and call this a diversification of the brand. If this allow more models like the GT3, GT2, etc., then by all means Porsche, keep at it.

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Jul 20, 2007 2:23:15 PM

ezzie: Co-Pilot; Loc: UK , United Kingdom; Posts: 242, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 5, 2004; Reply to: doyle

Re: Panamera: Milking the Porsche cow?

I don't think it will be a bad thing, as am sure it will be brilliantly resolved in terms of dynamics, but maybe awkward looking less like the cayenne but will still be odd stretching the 991 looks to a saloon. Also sure it will make porsche lots of money, they are the most profitable car company after all (per car). Also lots of rich people can't fit in in a 911 or by the time they can afford one, need to carry more than one passenger. Aston is also entering the market and bentley made a saloon version of its continental gt recently too. They are becoming a mass market company though with exclusivity diminishing. At the end of the day though, they still make very exciting cars and that is the main point, however, those seeking rarity will have to look elsewhere.

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Jul 26, 2007 11:53:13 PM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13737, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: JP66

Re: Panamera: Milking the Porsche cow?

Quote:
JP66 said:
Quote:
nberry said:
As most know my biggest hang up with Porsche has been they way they have exploited the name in their quest for profit.

Ummm....don't all companies exploit their name in a quest for profit??

I should check this threads more often.

There is a difference between exploiting a brand/image and a name selling the product. Exploiting a brand means the manufacturer is going outside its product base to sell a product it is not known for. It uses its brand and image to sell the product packaging it as "almost" like the real thing.

Distinguish that from a manufacturer who is known for a particular product only sells that product. See the difference?

It is true a few of this manufacturers will license their name for products produced by someone else. Ferrari, Porsche BMW... all do this but usually these involve small items.

Porsche belongs in the exploitation category for the reasons enumerated above. The will build a pig put lipstick on it and sell if it would turn a profit. Companies like Ferrari will only build what they know and known for protecting its image regardless of profit.

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Jul 27, 2007 2:03:29 AM

SoCal Alan: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Orange County , United States; Posts: 7268, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 6, 2004; Reply to: nberry

Re: Panamera: Milking the Porsche cow?

Quote:
nberry said:
Quote:
JP66 said:
Quote:
nberry said:
As most know my biggest hang up with Porsche has been they way they have exploited the name in their quest for profit.

Ummm....don't all companies exploit their name in a quest for profit??

I should check this threads more often.

There is a difference between exploiting a brand/image and a name selling the product. Exploiting a brand means the manufacturer is going outside its product base to sell a product it is not known for. It uses its brand and image to sell the product packaging it as "almost" like the real thing.

Distinguish that from a manufacturer who is known for a particular product only sells that product. See the difference?

It is true a few of this manufacturers will license their name for products produced by someone else. Ferrari, Porsche BMW... all do this but usually these involve small items.

Porsche belongs in the exploitation category for the reasons enumerated above. The will build a pig put lipstick on it and sell if it would turn a profit. Companies like Ferrari will only build what they know and known for protecting its image regardless of profit.

Your definition of exploitation is fairly poor. Nobody gets exploited in a free market, in general.

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Jul 27, 2007 3:13:47 AM

jlr: Junior; Loc: Birmingham, Alabama; Posts: 123, Gallery; Registered on: May 15, 2005; Reply to: SoCal Alan

Re: Panamera: Milking the Porsche cow?

My take is that Porsche should be respected if they sell a focused, dynamically interesting, focused product. Whether it has 4 doors or 2 doors, rear-engined, mid-engined, or front-engined, this is the abiding question. The 928 was a fabulous product and the Panamera/GT will be too if it adheres to traditional Porsche qualities. Actually, a front-engined 4 seat car brings less expectation than a 2 seat sports car, so I predict it will be a smash. My irritation at Porsche's "sport car" range surpasses their other products, because I expect a bit more from cars that pretend to be sports cars (i.e., 911s and Caymans without lsd and credible suspension options). I think maybe a Porsche Panamera (for grocery runs) and a real sports car (like a Z06 or Lotus Exige S) would be the perfect garage...

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Jul 27, 2007 4:59:39 PM

Emperor: Veteran; Loc: London & Gothenburg; Posts: 1013, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 6, 2006; Reply to: SoCal Alan

Re: Panamera: Milking the Porsche cow?

Quote:
SoCal Alan said:
Quote:
nberry said:
Quote:
JP66 said:
Quote:
nberry said:
As most know my biggest hang up with Porsche has been they way they have exploited the name in their quest for profit.

Ummm....don't all companies exploit their name in a quest for profit??

I should check this threads more often.

There is a difference between exploiting a brand/image and a name selling the product. Exploiting a brand means the manufacturer is going outside its product base to sell a product it is not known for. It uses its brand and image to sell the product packaging it as "almost" like the real thing.

Distinguish that from a manufacturer who is known for a particular product only sells that product. See the difference?

It is true a few of this manufacturers will license their name for products produced by someone else. Ferrari, Porsche BMW... all do this but usually these involve small items.

Porsche belongs in the exploitation category for the reasons enumerated above. The will build a pig put lipstick on it and sell if it would turn a profit. Companies like Ferrari will only build what they know and known for protecting its image regardless of profit.

Your definition of exploitation is fairly poor. Nobody gets exploited in a free market, in general.

I agree. That was a terrible definition. Exploitation to me is when a company milks it's brand and reputation by selling mediocre products with weak performance or quality, or products which don't even fit in their line-up at all.

A typical example are some Fashion designers like Chanel, LV and Dior which sell plain white T-shirt, cups and teddy bear with their logos on it. They know that their customers love the brand and will buy those products regardless of their quality or price. All just for quick revenue.

With that being said i find the behavior of some people on this board to be ridiculous. As soon as they see a non rear-engined Porsche with more than 2 doors they go "OMFG!! PORSCHE ARE GOING DOWN MARKET DEVELOPING A VW COMPETITOR!"
The Panamera is far from a weekend project. Porsche has invested over 1 billion euro in the car and is not a car simply designed to fill a whole in their line up. Like I have said before it's purpose is to retain it's customers who become fathers from selling their 911 and turning to MB, BMW and Audi for a more practical high performer like the M5 and E55.

Comparing Porsche to Ferrari is pretty useless since Ferrari doesn't even stand on their own feet. They are owned by Fiat while Porsche is the leader shareholder in VW.

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Jul 27, 2007 8:28:43 PM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13737, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: Emperor

Re: Panamera: Milking the Porsche cow?

" agree. That was a terrible definition. Exploitation to me is when a company milks it's brand and reputation by selling mediocre products with weak performance or quality, or products which don't even fit in their line-up at all.

Strange you do not think my definition is correct given your definition is almost the same.

Less than ten years ago Porsche was on record that they would never build a sedan or SUV because it would not fit into their model line up or brand.

Recently, Porsche quality record took a big hit because of the poor performance of the Cayenne. Still disagree that Porsche is exploiting the brand?

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Jul 28, 2007 12:48:24 PM

W8MM: Rennteam Master; Loc: Cincinnati, OH , United States; Posts: 3997, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 8, 2003; Reply to: nberry

Re: Panamera: Milking the Porsche cow?

Quote:
nberry said:Recently, Porsche quality record took a big hit because of the poor performance of the Cayenne. Still disagree that Porsche is exploiting the brand?

OK, Nick. I see you're playing the Devil's advocate again.

The trouble is that you're a bit too enthusiastic about it. I'm beginning to suspect that you're not really a stand-in for him, but the real thing

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Jul 28, 2007 1:45:59 PM

Dr. Phil: Rennteam Master; Loc: Denmark , Denmark; Posts: 5884, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 30, 2004; Reply to: W8MM

Re: Panamera: Milking the Porsche cow?

Nick is from another planet. I'm sure of it.
His alien lungs can't absorb the oxygen of our atmosphere, so he needs to bash Porsche to stay alive - it's a strange chemical process, but apparently the only one that works for his species.

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Jul 28, 2007 3:49:42 PM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13737, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: Dr. Phil

Re: Panamera: Milking the Porsche cow?

Years ago I spent a month traveling in India. While in Benares somewhere in its dirty back streets I came upon a outside vendor selling belt buckles. He had a little table and a few belt buckles displayed. What was striking about the man was his smile and happiness he exuded. Without a doubt he was the happiest man I ever met in my life.

The following morning about 4:00 AM I was on my way down to the Ganges to watch the funeral ceremonies. I walked down the same street the vendor was on the day before. To my astonishment there he was in the same place but sleeping on top of the table where he had his belt buckles. He awoke as I was walking by and I asked him why he had not gone home. He said that was his home and has been for several years. He ate there and used public facilities to clean up.

I left and after watching the ceremonies and returned to the vendor. There was a question I needed to ask him. "How could someone be so happy (I must tell you this guy epitomized what a happy man looked like) while he lived in such dire circumstances? His answer.........

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Jul 28, 2007 4:08:46 PM

SoCal Alan: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Orange County , United States; Posts: 7268, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 6, 2004; Reply to: nberry

Re: Panamera: Milking the Porsche cow?

Quote:
nberry said:
His answer.........

Marijuana?

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Jul 28, 2007 5:26:07 PM

SVNSVN: Rennteam Pro; Loc: CA, USA; Posts: 2994, Gallery; Registered on: May 22, 2005; Reply to: SoCal Alan

Re: Panamera: Milking the Porsche cow?

Or he knew Nick was only visiting.

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Jul 28, 2007 5:52:21 PM

Dr. Phil: Rennteam Master; Loc: Denmark , Denmark; Posts: 5884, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 30, 2004; Reply to: SoCal Alan

Re: Panamera: Milking the Porsche cow?

Quote:
SoCal Alan said:
Quote:
nberry said:
His answer.........

Marijuana?

LOL! Must have been

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Jul 28, 2007 5:57:55 PM

Dr. Phil: Rennteam Master; Loc: Denmark , Denmark; Posts: 5884, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 30, 2004; Reply to: SVNSVN

Re: Panamera: Milking the Porsche cow?

Quote:
SVNSVN said:
Or he knew Nick was only visiting.

LOL!

I dunno, I think this story sounds like something from The Watchtower or L. Ron Hubbard.

I think it ended like this:

"..he stretched out his feeble arm and took my hand. With a stern but friendly look - a look I had never seen before in my life - and believe me I have seen some looks -- he solemnly said: "My friend, I am so happy, for I own not a Ferrari." He then dangled a set of Porsche Carrera GT keys in front of me, grabbed a belt and whipped my ass with it, then happily skipped along. Aaaah, yes. Truly the happiest man in the World.
Sadly this has made me hate Porsche more than anything, but what the heck".

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Jul 28, 2007 10:01:14 PM

Targa Tim: Expert; Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada , Canada; Posts: 1475, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 3, 2005; Reply to: Dr. Phil

Re: Panamera: Milking the Porsche cow?

Hey Dr. Phil, how come you can read Nick's mind so clearly? Which planet are you from??

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Jul 29, 2007 12:27:50 AM

ADias: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Southwest USA , United States; Posts: 2495, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 9, 2004; Reply to: nberry

Re: Panamera: Milking the Porsche cow?

Quote:
nberry said:
Years ago I spent a month traveling in India. While in Benares somewhere in its dirty back streets I came upon a outside vendor selling belt buckles. He had a little table and a few belt buckles displayed. What was striking about the man was his smile and happiness he exuded. Without a doubt he was the happiest man I ever met in my life.

The following morning about 4:00 AM I was on my way down to the Ganges to watch the funeral ceremonies. I walked down the same street the vendor was on the day before. To my astonishment there he was in the same place but sleeping on top of the table where he had his belt buckles. He awoke as I was walking by and I asked him why he had not gone home. He said that was his home and has been for several years. He ate there and used public facilities to clean up.

I left and after watching the ceremonies and returned to the vendor. There was a question I needed to ask him. "How could someone be so happy (I must tell you this guy epitomized what a happy man looked like) while he lived in such dire circumstances? His answer.........

... and his answer was: He was saving to buy a Porsche. He's getting a Panamera soon

Nick was astonished and since then Nick was never the same.

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Jul 29, 2007 1:02:23 AM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13737, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: ADias

Re: Panamera: Milking the Porsche cow?

Life is about balance. Happiness is knowing the middle point. I do not desire for more nor do I despair because of less. I am at equilibrium. Thus, life is the present moment which I fully embrace and savor.

What does this have to do with my Porsche sentiments?

BALANCE!

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Jul 29, 2007 5:21:15 AM

SoCal Alan: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Orange County , United States; Posts: 7268, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 6, 2004; Reply to: nberry

Re: Panamera: Milking the Porsche cow?

Nick, I want you to be happy and have balance. I want to help you achieve that by helping you take your yellow F430 off your hands (donated for free, of course), even though it has all those miles (abnormally high for an F430) on it. Send me a private reply if you are serious about this.

Waiting by my computer,

Alan

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Jul 30, 2007 12:17:42 PM

EricAlain: Veteran; Loc: Paris, France , France; Posts: 1037, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 14, 2002; Reply to: SoCal Alan

Re: Panamera: Milking the Porsche cow?

For those who believe, Porsche will go down market with the Panamera, they are just dead wrong.

From what the company said, prices should be at par or a touch higher than the 911 ...

Therefore by decreasing order, we should have 911/Panamera very close then Cayenne/Cayman then Boxster... this is not what I would call a "cheap alternative" or "going down market" ....

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Aug 5, 2007 11:21:51 AM

deathnell: Junior; Loc: GD.CHN; Posts: 74, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 4, 2007; Reply to: EricAlain

Re: Panamera: Milking the Porsche cow?

Quote:
EricAlain said:

For those who believe, Porsche will go down market with the Panamera, they are just dead wrong.

From what the company said, prices should be at par or a touch higher than the 911 ...

Therefore by decreasing order, we should have 911/Panamera very close then Cayenne/Cayman then Boxster... this is not what I would call a "cheap alternative" or "going down market" ....

I don't think so.
A bwm730 is more expensive than a 330i,but the 330 is of higher market.

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