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    Turbo's handling/roadholding vs. competitors

    I am interested in how good the turbos road holding and handling is. I understand that it is hard to control at the limit, and that it may not behave very good at the limit, is that what you guys mean by handling??? But does it have a high limit, such as a lot of grip or good ablity to change directions, meaning it has good bite. How does it compare to its competitors. Some members are claming the gallardo and audi R8 are taking corners faster. Is the turbo still a great handling/roadholding car? Or is it just slitely trailing other cars in this department.
    PS. Numbers are great and what exactly is the difference between roadholding and handling?

    Re: Turbo's handling/roadholding vs. competitors

    Quote:
    dsts6 said:
    I am interested in how good the turbos road holding and handling is. I understand that it is hard to control at the limit, and that it may not behave very good at the limit, is that what you guys mean by handling??? But does it have a high limit, such as a lot of grip or good ablity to change directions, meaning it has good bite. How does it compare to its competitors. Some members are claming the gallardo and audi R8 are taking corners faster. Is the turbo still a great handling/roadholding car? Or is it just slitely trailing other cars in this department.
    PS. Numbers are great and what exactly is the difference between roadholding and handling?



    Handling is basically how the car responds to your input and how easily it changes direction and behaves. Roadholding is just grip (tyres and suspension).

    Re: Turbo's handling/roadholding vs. competitors

    I track my 997TT a fair amount and I have to say I find it nervous on anything but Hoosier racing tires. It does have an odd combination of understeer/oversteer at 8-9/10th's driving. It is a relatively heavy car - 150kg or so heavier than the GT3 which uses the same size tires and the Z06 which uses even bigger (275/325) tires. Physics tells you that to even the playing field in terms of handling you need more grip. On Hoosiers there is not much out there that will completely outclass the TT - that level being a 996 cup car, Panoz GT2 race car, some open wheel racers.

    Re: Turbo's handling/roadholding vs. competitors

    Quote:
    eclou said:
    I track my 997TT a fair amount and I have to say I find it nervous on anything but Hoosier racing tires. It does have an odd combination of understeer/oversteer at 8-9/10th's driving. It is a relatively heavy car - 150kg or so heavier than the GT3 which uses the same size tires and the Z06 which uses even bigger (275/325) tires. Physics tells you that to even the playing field in terms of handling you need more grip. On Hoosiers there is not much out there that will completely outclass the TT - that level being a 996 cup car, Panoz GT2 race car, some open wheel racers.



    Given your track experience, you must surely know how it compares to 996tt & 997GT3?

    What settings do you prefer - PSM/PASM on/off?

    Re: Turbo's handling/roadholding vs. competitors

    Honestly my experience in the 996TT is limited mainly as a passenger. I have not driven the 997GT3 yet but am picking one up in 2 weeks.

    For the TT I use PASM in Sport on my track (smooth surface) and PSM I leave ON. I have had 2 major slides at 120+mph on a major turn with cold tires and PSM quickly corrected the attitude of the car. For me, PSM is a welcome added measure against disaster. I am sure there are some drivers out there who are much more skilled and more comfortable driving the car closer to 10/10th's with PSM OFF.

    Re: Turbo's handling/roadholding vs. competitors

    Quote:
    eclou said:
    Honestly my experience in the 996TT is limited mainly as a passenger. I have not driven the 997GT3 yet but am picking one up in 2 weeks.

    For the TT I use PASM in Sport on my track (smooth surface) and PSM I leave ON. I have had 2 major slides at 120+mph on a major turn with cold tires and PSM quickly corrected the attitude of the car. For me, PSM is a welcome added measure against disaster. I am sure there are some drivers out there who are much more skilled and more comfortable driving the car closer to 10/10th's with PSM OFF.



    If they had PSM on the CGT, it would be in my garage today.

    Re: Turbo's handling/roadholding vs. competitors

    Quote:
    mp said:
    Quote:
    eclou said:
    I track my 997TT a fair amount and I have to say I find it nervous on anything but Hoosier racing tires. It does have an odd combination of understeer/oversteer at 8-9/10th's driving. It is a relatively heavy car - 150kg or so heavier than the GT3 which uses the same size tires and the Z06 which uses even bigger (275/325) tires. Physics tells you that to even the playing field in terms of handling you need more grip. On Hoosiers there is not much out there that will completely outclass the TT - that level being a 996 cup car, Panoz GT2 race car, some open wheel racers.



    Given your track experience, you must surely know how it compares to 996tt & 997GT3?

    What settings do you prefer - PSM/PASM on/off?



    I tracked my TT recently using the street tires and I was in for a very big surprise, the car heavily understeers with PSM ON and it would fight me at every tight turn. On the straights passing everyone was not a problem but on the turns the front tires showed their limits of grip very early and the only way to get rid of severe understeer was to turn PSM off, which now allowed throttle oversteer. With PASM ON and PSM OFF, the car became a joy to drive that until the street tires overheated and the drifting started, not a good thing since a 996 GT3 I was regularly passing, became right on my tail and eventually passed me. I agree with Eclou that a set of slicks on the TT could transform into a very competitive track machine.
    My 0.2 cents.

    Re: Turbo's handling/roadholding vs. competitors

    K so how does the turbos handling and roadholding compare to the 996tt?
    btw thanks for the input everyone

    Re: Turbo's handling/roadholding vs. competitors

    I wonder whether the 997s nervousness is related more to its PASM setup, or to the new AWD system...

    Re: Turbo's handling/roadholding vs. competitors

    FWIW: In a very large sense the original question is irrelevant.

    If you're talking about just driving the car (and it's competition), however "frisky," on public roads they are all fantastic and _perfect_ handling cars.

    No matter how hard you try on public roads, there's not one thing you can do, short of driving like a dangerous freekin' lunatic, that would differentiate one car as being the "better" car for handling and performance.

    Re: Turbo's handling/roadholding vs. competitors

    Quote:
    nberry said:


    If they had PSM on the CGT, it would be in my garage today.



    Haha that would be the only Porsche I would not put in my garage no matter what, personally I hated that car, about the only think I like is the engine alone.

    Anyway, 996 is tuned more safely, Porsche has stated that 997 are tuned more 'pro' like in handling compared with the old car and in the hands of experts they are much more fun than the 996s, for mere mortals the 996 would be a much safer car to drive at/near the limit than the 997.

    Re: Turbo's handling/roadholding vs. competitors

    I still don't see how the 997 Turbo understeers on street tires, I have heavy understeer only with cold Michelin Cup tires. After they increase temperature, they stick like hell but it takes too long during street driving and another problem is dirt from the road which sticks to the tire, the Cup tires are like a dirt collector.
    Meaning: Cup tires are useless for street driving, they make the 997 Turbo more difficult to handle, especially since you need to adapt to temperature changes AND you need to have the right tire pressure. Lowering the tire pressure for street driving is too dangerous since the Cup tire builds up heat only slowly (street) and you need to reach the recommended values very fast to avoid longterm (invisible) tire damage. For street driving, stick to street tires, they're even good for a couple of fast rounds on the track.

    No matter what the reviews have told us, the 997 Turbo is still a very fast car but I agree that it is more difficult to control at the limit than the 996 Turbo for example. Still, a pro driver can squeeze out a bit more out of the 997 Turbo than he could squeeze out of the 996 Turbo but the difference isn't as big as people may think and it actually is susprisingly bigger on tight tracks with lots of twists and turns. The 997 Turbo did almost the same track time like the 997 GT3 in Hockenheim, a "low speed" track, so I guess that we can still assume that this is an impressive car. However, I think that Porsche made a couple of development mistakes, maybe even by purpose.

    I remember when a lot of customers were making complaints about the too neutral setup of the 996 Turbo back in 2000.
    They claimed the 996 Turbo is too boring, not involving enough, etc. etc. (sounds familiar? ). Porsche took this to their heart and created a 911 Turbo successor with a more "classic" handling behaviour, meaning: heavy oversteer.
    To be honest, I don't like this setup. I drive my car to enjoy it and to be fast. Heavy oversteer may be fun for some adolescents proving their drifting skills but for me, this is actually a fun killer since it makes the car slowlier under certain driving conditions. We could argue all day long what is fun and what isn't but on a AWD car, I definetely expect a more neutral setup, not a behaviour like in a RWD. The latest Sport Auto actually indicates pretty well the existing flaws and although the 997 Turbo is still the hell of a sportscar, the competition is at the same performance level or even slightly better. Of course the GT2 may change things but comparing the new 997 Turbo to the old one, I get a bad taste on my tongue. All that new technology (VTG, PASM, PTM, etc.) and the new 997 Turbo is actually slowlier on the Nordschleife than the old one? (considering that the tested 997 Turbo had Cup tires and the tested 996 Turbo didn't). Then take the additional 60 HP in the 997 Turbo and this car looks even more bad.

    Don't get me wrong, I love my 997 Turbo and I would never exchange it for a 996 Turbo again. The only thing I'm upset about is the fact that Porsche did it again: instead of improving a product substantially, they actually just created the same thing around new technology which was actually NOT necessary. There may be some benefit regarding the VTG technology but what is it good to have an electronically controlled AWD if it isn't as good as the "old" mechanical one? I don't get it. Especially with the manual transmission, the 997 Turbo doesn't seem to benefit at all from the new AWD system. I'm also disappointed that Porsche didn't offer an optional real sport suspension on the 997 Turbo instead of PASM. PASM hasn't impressed anybody so far, so I wonder why they still stick to it? Is it pride? Is Porsche stuck in longterm contracts to achieve a better price? I don't get it. PASM sucks and the only advantage it has is actually a psychological one: making the car stiffer provides a sportier FEEL but the truth is that the car is actually slowlier on ANY track with speeds over 60 kph or so.

    With the exception of the Corvette Z06, the 997 Turbo is still one of the best bangs for your buck considering the overall performance and reliability. I'm just not sure if the customers really asked for this? In the "good old days", the 911 Turbo was the synonyme for a killer sportscar. Nowadays, people have the feeling that it is more of a modern do-it-all Grand Tourismo. It still is as fast as a 997 GT3 on tight tracks on the right tires but after a couple of rounds, the additional weight of the 997 Turbo shows. So what is the 997 Turbo? In my opinion, the 997 Turbo is a good successor to the 996 Turbo but unfortunately not the "killer application" I expected from Porsche. The reasons may be obvious: cost AND customer dumbness. Why should Porsche spend more money on a product if it sells anyway? If it sells slowlier, improvements are easily possible since they started with the "base performance". I don't like this strategy at all, it may provide Porsche with additional income from a GT2, powerkit, Turbo S model, etc. but for me as a customer, this marketing strategy is not only obvious, it hits me in the face.

    Next time I'll think twice before buying a new 911 Turbo and this comes from a "hardcore" 911 Turbo fan. If Porsche wants my money next time, they need to work harder. Otherwise, I'll have to go shopping elsewhere and it never has been easier to find another "pretty daughter" than nowadays. The competition is getting harder for Porsche.

    Re: Turbo's handling/roadholding vs. competitors

    Harsh words but very informative as always

    However you wrote some weeks ago that the 997TT may have posted better lap times on the NBR (Sport Auto Supertest) with standard Michelin PS2.
    You seem now to imply the opposite when you write that the 997TT is slower around the NBR than the 996TT considering the different type of tyres used.
    Or do I understand wrongly ?

    Btw, we don't say "more bad" but "worse"

    Re: Turbo's handling/roadholding vs. competitors

    So the 997 turbo is good handling at low speeds?

    Re: Turbo's handling/roadholding vs. competitors

    RC- do I see a gallardo in your future;)?

    Re: Turbo's handling/roadholding vs. competitors

    I fully expect Nick to jump in again to echo RC's comments.

    Anytime now.....

    Re: Turbo's handling/roadholding vs. competitors

    Quote:
    dsts6 said:
    So the 997 turbo is good handling at low speeds?



    my impression is the TT's handling at both low speeds and high speeds is great. Yes you can encounter oversteer during spirited street driving, but understeer does not show itself until very aggressive driving on the track and on street tires with PSM ON.
    btw, does anyone know what pasm/psm setting was used during that mediocre NBR lap? I am certain now that different settings would yield significantly different numbers even with the same driver.

    Re: Turbo's handling/roadholding vs. competitors

    I have 'heard' that a X73 setup for the 997TT will be released shortly through tequipment. One can only hope.

    Re: Turbo's handling/roadholding vs. competitors

    Quote:
    bostonmini said:
    RC- do I see a gallardo in your future;)?



    While some on this board may not be fully satisfied with the 997tt, finding something better is difficult, unless you don't need the capacity to seat more than 2 adults.

    In which case a few other vehicles offer valid alternatives (you know which ones) BUT will surely have their own drawbacks, such as: much higher prices, limited supply, limited practical use (low mileage & summers only) etc.

    I considered an M6, but just couldn't get over its (bad) design, jerky sequential transmission, poor low-end torque, too big/heavy etc.

    At the end of the day, Porsche will produce cars which sell, not what a few purists want. On the plus side, they offer many alternatives - 997GT3/RS/GT2.

    Re: Turbo's handling/roadholding vs. competitors

    MP- I agree, the M6 is no 911 TT, I just cant imagine why they backstepped on the PASM bit...hmmph. not to mention for the US the GT3 sunroof issue!

    Re: Turbo's handling/roadholding vs. competitors

    My two cents is that, handling wise, you must differenciate between slow and fast corners, as the 997 Turbo does behaves very differently;

    -In slow corners (the typical mountain road) the car does understeer but also oversteers, particularly in sport mode and even with PSM on. The alternance of over and understeer is quite balanced and can be induced/controlled with steering throtle and weight transfer in the purest classical Porsche tradition (reminds me a lot of the 964 c4 only with twice the limits). This can be fun, although you reach the limit at pretty high speed and this is a heavy car so concentration is a must on tight, public roads (only flying a helicopter requires more concentration in my experience). Think driving a group B car with a half a ton of bricks in ballast. There is a good chance an average driver will pound a well driven gt3 in these circumnstances, although it will not be as an engaging or involving experience. In most sequences of turns you just leave the car in one gear and push the throttle and brakes as needed, while the gt3 driver works the car like mad. You'll arrive first but he'll have the time of his life. But you'll arrive first, which is important.

    -In fast corners (typical track work) the car is very, very boring. As on track your speed is higher, the tyres warmer/asphalt of better quality and the turn radius generally broader it becomes more difficult to power oversteer. You can put the car sideways by transferring weight forward at the entrance of the curve (as you can do on the mountain road of course) as in most 911s, but that does little good for your times or fluidity on a track. As the tyres wear you become increasingly aware of the potential of losing the back on a trailing throttle or of experiencing massive understeer, but you still can't experience big power oversteer, so the frustration compounds (for example you cannot use power oversteer to rein in oversteer or to maintain a slide generated by an overcooked corner entrance on a trailing throttle). The end result is that an ever widening front end saps time and you just end up driving the best possible line as you would do on a car with 100hp and forget about giving too much gas in a corner period. No space whatsoever for creativity or initiative. Just pick the best line and drive it over and over again and your times will be very good. You'll probably keep that gt3 at bay too, unless is driven by a champ. But try to have fun and you'll add three seconds a lap by oversteering all over the place.
    This is no fun; you feel grandma could drive the car and do the lap of the day, so what's the value added you bring? The gearing adds to the frustration; the car NEEDS one gear more than the gt3 (or than a carrera S!) in most corners, as the engine can't rev high but does deliver all of its torque in the low to mid range. Simple physics dictates that if your power is delivered that low you might as well use 3rd in a 2nd gear corner, particularly if the rpm progression is almost the same in the two gears as it is for the Turbo. You can take that corner in 2nd, but you'll be slower. So you have on average almost 2000 less rpm in most corners compared to the gt3, and do much less shifting on a lap. Yet you power out of the corners just as fast. But while on the mountain road this flexibility is an advantage, on track is not because the gt3 can overcome its lower torque by being always in its sweet rpm spot (something that is more difficult to do on the road), so you are just as fast, not faster than the gt3. You may say that's not bad. It generally isn't if the driver of the gt3 is an average joe. The gt3 is twitcy at the limit and most people will not drive it 10/10ths even on a track. They will drive it 8/10ths and think they are doing 11/10ths. But the gt3 carries 200kgs or so less than the Turbo and this weight is carried on the tyres by the square of its speed. That means if you are willing to dare race speed corner entrances on the gt3 physics will be on your side and you won't understeer into oblivion as if you were in a turbo. Similarly, the gt3 can easily outbrake the turbo on any track (but most people don't know that because the Turbo is already phenomenal in that respect and outiright exceeding the turbo braking performance on a road car feels like you are going to crash). I sat beside Sascha Maassen at Imola on a GT3 driven at race pace and can tell most people (including me) are more comfortable initiating a 220kmh brake a bit more than 150meters from the apex, just in case something goes wrong.
    So, if someone is driving the gt3 like it's meant to they will have a hairy ride, but they will easily keep up with (or even could beat) a Turbo particularly if the track has a combination of heavy braking and tight corners (like Imola). This is a bit sad, because the Turbo, the mean porsche, feels really like the overweight grand tourer in this context, unable to shake the less powerful and smaller car and unable to entretain its driver. On the road you were thinking the car made more sense than a GT3, its pliant suspension, traction and engine flexibility making the most of the conditions. A bit unentretaining but effective. But you now realize the price to pay is that you have a good road car and not a good Track car at all. And for 150k you thought you should have both. And something more visceral in any case.

    Talking about visceral experiences, I recently went on a test ride with famous Lambo senior test driver Valentino on a Superleggera, and boy what a galvanizing, overwhelming sensation feast. The noise of the engine, gearbox and overall feeling was of a pure racer unleashed on the road. Not even the gt3 can get close.
    Yet I don't think my 997tt would have been any slower on the same road (and I often drive my car on the same road at a good pace, so I know), in fact I think the Turbo is faster cornering and more surefooted at the back at the limit on those roads (Monaco hills).


    This again proves the Turbo is very effective on the road, if soulless. As for the track, too heavy and very soulless just sums it up for me.
    The Lambo superleggera just addresses the soul factor amply, while with the new weight reduction should also make it stunning on the track. If it only didn't look like a drug dealer's car!

    The real, real proble with the lambo, or the gt3 for that matter, is that they cant cover ground quicker than the Turbo. On a real world road with an average driver, the Turbo will mince them if they are driven by an average driver and otherwise keep up with them if they are driven by a good one. And that is the only thing that has prevented me from selling the turbo yet, even as I am about to take delivery of an R8. My heart pounds at the thought of a Gt3, Superleggera or R8, while I am left completely cold by the TT I own. But I just can't do without the feeling of knowing I can leave any of them in the dust by just squeezing the go pedal without a downshift and without my passenger thinking I am even trying. This effortless performance is not emotional, but gives you a feeling of "omnipotence" on the road. It's that turbo thing. Multiplying torque with forced induction is still the best cheat on the books after so many years and billions spent in R/D.

    PS: Aquaplaning: If there is one true handling gripe I have with the car (although I believe it has to do with tyre choices rather than pure handling issues per se) is perfomance on very wet road surfaces. I have been surprised several times in the wet by skittish or downright dangerous behaviour while travelling in downpours or heavy rain even at very moderate (130kmh) speeds. The car just seems to want to float over poodles or water accumulation like nothing else I have driven before. I once found myself travelling at slow speed on a STRAIGHT piece of motorway during heavy rain when the car went on a spin (!) on its own (!!!) which I was barely able to recover with full lock countersteer and after a true "tankslapper".
    At the time I imputed the problem to the very wide summer tyres, probably not ideal for heavy rain in cold weather, the 10,000km wear on them (although the thread was still quite good in my view) and the presence of skis on the roof which I thought may generate a magical draft creating positive lift over the wing. However, this tendence to aquaplane now continues after having removed the ski carrier and the temperatures risen, so I no longer feel confident driving the car at even moderate speed when very wet. Has anyone had a similar problem?

    Re: Turbo's handling/roadholding vs. competitors

    Living in the Pacific Nortwest with lots of rain, I find the 997TT quite capable in the wet. However, I'm not sure if I mostly drive it with the Continental TS810S or the Bridgestone RE050A during the rainy days.

    What tires do you have? Do you have proper tires pressure?

    Re: Turbo's handling/roadholding vs. competitors

    I have found the aquaplaning point with summer tires to be about 60-65 mph on heavy road water with all the turbos I have owned.

    Re: Turbo's handling/roadholding vs. competitors

    Nice observations Porschist, agreed with all. On street tires I think the TT is very stubborn at the track - not enjoyable at all. I have found that most of the idiosyncrasies disappear or become less frustrating with true track tires (the N1 MPSC are still street tires).

    Re: Turbo's handling/roadholding vs. competitors

    Sounds like you might be happier with a gt3 porschist.

    Re: Turbo's handling/roadholding vs. competitors

    This effortless performance is not emotional, but gives you a feeling of "omnipotence" on the road. It's that turbo thing. Multiplying torque with forced induction is still the best cheat on the books after so many years and billions spent in R/D.

    +++ There is life after FI. And you can frequent racetracks to help aleviate Boost withdrawals.

    Re: Turbo's handling/roadholding vs. competitors

    Tyres are Pilots with about 5mm of thread left. Pressure is always in the prescribed range (and I monitor it real time quite often).
    Anyone has opinions on what's a better wet tyre than the Pilots without loosing too much dry grip? I doubt a there exist a compromise tyre that does a good job of gripping in most conditions for this car but who knows....

     
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