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    Streetable mods

    Hi guys

    First i wanna say Hi to RennTeamm Community

    I have an 07 997 Turbo - Auto trans -... Looking for good streetable daily use mods such as exhuast , intake , ecu ...etc

    Do u recommend the U.S or Germany tuners? which one is better ( quality/price/reliabilty ) ?

    I already make some searching here but i still confuse with which tuner i would go..

    Thanks in Advance

    Re: Streetable mods

    Quote:
    Freak997Turbo said:
    Hi guys

    First i wanna say Hi to RennTeamm Community

    I have an 07 997 Turbo - Auto trans -... Looking for good streetable daily use mods such as exhuast , intake , ecu ...etc

    Do u recommend the U.S or Germany tuners? which one is better ( quality/price/reliabilty ) ?

    I already make some searching here but i still confuse with which tuner i would go..

    Thanks in Advance



    1. living in the US, I would definetely choose a US tuner, take your pick and remember that nothing in life is for free. Meaning: cheap tuning delivers cheap quality.

    2. power upgrades up to 540 HP or so are simple to achieve with an ECU mod and a sport exhaust with sport cats only (200 cell or 100 cell). BUT: the question is if you REALLY need it in the US. German car magazine AMS tested five tuned 997 Turbos in the 530-550 HP range and the best performance gain was in the 0-250 kph range, usually by one second or maybe two. Again: we're talking about a 1-2 seconds performance gain from 0 to 156 mph. When did you drive 156 mph lately in the US? Bottom line: no matter if you gain 0.3 seconds from 0-60 mph or maybe half a second from 0-125 mph, the performance gain is marginal at lower speeds. For this little performance gain, you risk your warranty. Not worth it.

    3. more substantial power mods should be done by real pros. Some US tuners get rid of the cats and do other mods too which in Germany would be completely illegal for street usage. Of course these tuners know very well that their customers will never have the chance to drive their tuned Turbos at lets say 190 mph for 5 minutes non-stop, so they don't care. The new VTG technology produces incredibly high exhaust temperatures and I just have to look at my Cargraphic exhaust and rear pipes to realize what is going on. At night, a friend told me that after extended high speed driving, my exhaust mufflers is GLOWING red. From the colour change of the mufflers and the rear pipes to a blueish colour, I can tell how much heat is produced. I remind you that my car is 100% stock with the exception of the Cargraphic exhaust/cats.

    My advice to all 997 Turbo owners can only be: if you plan to have extensive engine mods...WAIT. The current results from serious tuners are nice but not impressive and the more impressive mods are usually not street legal or are not tested long enough, especially under prolonged stress and heat.

    Right now, you can add a nice sport exhaust to your car, a sport airfilter and maybe some lowering springs for your PASM suspension. Larger wheels beyond 19'' and removing the PASM or getting wider rear tires may sound great but it is counterproductive. None of these measures will enhance performance, on the contrary. You can also add the Michelin Pilot Sport Cup tires to your car, allowing (if the tires have the right temperature) slightly better track times through twists and turns but at the cost of a lowered error margin.

    I know that 90% of the owners who plan mods won't listen to my words and usually are falling for the ads from Tuners. I can live with that, I don't care. It is just sad that apparently some people still believe in Santa and don't use their brains. I would ask myself: why does this dumb German named RC recommend against certain mods? There are two answers possible: I want to sell you my own stuff (which I don't ) or...I know what I'm talking about.

    Anyway: IF you want to mod your car, just make sure you choose a well known Tuner, not the cheapest one around the corner.

    Re: Streetable mods

    If your cargraphic exhaust is glowing red, wouldn't the stock exhaust be even worse? i.e. hotter?

    Re: Streetable mods

    RC,

    I sincerely value your opinion and do not consider you a dumb German. I'm not on 6speedonline because I consider that forum to be "product/market driven". What are your thoughts on EVOMS products for the 997 tip ? As you are aware, I will never hit 190 mph (let alone hit that for literally 5 minutes straight. The Stage 4 package is fairly inexpensive considering you get 610 crank hp. Tulsa Turbo on our listserve loves his package. What is your experience/knowledge of their products ?

    Re: Streetable mods

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    Freak997Turbo said:
    Hi guys

    First i wanna say Hi to RennTeamm Community

    I have an 07 997 Turbo - Auto trans -... Looking for good streetable daily use mods such as exhuast , intake , ecu ...etc

    Do u recommend the U.S or Germany tuners? which one is better ( quality/price/reliabilty ) ?

    I already make some searching here but i still confuse with which tuner i would go..

    Thanks in Advance



    1. living in the US, I would definetely choose a US tuner, take your pick and remember that nothing in life is for free. Meaning: cheap tuning delivers cheap quality.

    2. power upgrades up to 540 HP or so are simple to achieve with an ECU mod and a sport exhaust with sport cats only (200 cell or 100 cell). BUT: the question is if you REALLY need it in the US. German car magazine AMS tested five tuned 997 Turbos in the 530-550 HP range and the best performance gain was in the 0-250 kph range, usually by one second or maybe two. Again: we're talking about a 1-2 seconds performance gain from 0 to 156 mph. When did you drive 156 mph lately in the US? Bottom line: no matter if you gain 0.3 seconds from 0-60 mph or maybe half a second from 0-125 mph, the performance gain is marginal at lower speeds. For this little performance gain, you risk your warranty. Not worth it.

    3. more substantial power mods should be done by real pros. Some US tuners get rid of the cats and do other mods too which in Germany would be completely illegal for street usage. Of course these tuners know very well that their customers will never have the chance to drive their tuned Turbos at lets say 190 mph for 5 minutes non-stop, so they don't care. The new VTG technology produces incredibly high exhaust temperatures and I just have to look at my Cargraphic exhaust and rear pipes to realize what is going on. At night, a friend told me that after extended high speed driving, my exhaust mufflers is GLOWING red. From the colour change of the mufflers and the rear pipes to a blueish colour, I can tell how much heat is produced. I remind you that my car is 100% stock with the exception of the Cargraphic exhaust/cats.

    My advice to all 997 Turbo owners can only be: if you plan to have extensive engine mods...WAIT. The current results from serious tuners are nice but not impressive and the more impressive mods are usually not street legal or are not tested long enough, especially under prolonged stress and heat.

    Right now, you can add a nice sport exhaust to your car, a sport airfilter and maybe some lowering springs for your PASM suspension. Larger wheels beyond 19'' and removing the PASM or getting wider rear tires may sound great but it is counterproductive. None of these measures will enhance performance, on the contrary. You can also add the Michelin Pilot Sport Cup tires to your car, allowing (if the tires have the right temperature) slightly better track times through twists and turns but at the cost of a lowered error margin.

    I know that 90% of the owners who plan mods won't listen to my words and usually are falling for the ads from Tuners. I can live with that, I don't care. It is just sad that apparently some people still believe in Santa and don't use their brains. I would ask myself: why does this dumb German named RC recommend against certain mods? There are two answers possible: I want to sell you my own stuff (which I don't ) or...I know what I'm talking about.

    Anyway: IF you want to mod your car, just make sure you choose a well known Tuner, not the cheapest one around the corner.



    I agree with everything you said except the part about performance gains at lower speeds. It seems that you guys across the pond are having some trouble acknowledging that better gains have been achieved here. My car was proof to me and I confirmed it by buying a Racelogic GPS device and testing the car. The 100-200km/h I got with the very first run in sport mode was 7.3 seconds and assuming the 0-100km/h did not improve, we are talking 11 seconds to 200km/h, down from 12.3-12.8 for the stock car. If this is not a significant improvement, I don't know what is.
    btw, a Techart 580 was just tested by Excellence magazine and the 100-200 was a mediocre 8.1 seconds which tells me no way that car is making 580hp .

    Re: Streetable mods

    I think the exhaust is the only thing I would do on the TT. Only bc it's so anemic from the factory, otherwise I would leave it bone stock, nothing wrong with that!

    Re: Streetable mods

    Quote:
    aah986 said:
    My car was proof to me and I confirmed it by buying a Racelogic GPS device and testing the car. The 100-200km/h I got with the very first run in sport mode was 7.3 seconds and assuming the 0-100km/h did not improve, we are talking 11 seconds to 200km/h, down from 12.3-12.8 for the stock car. If this is not a significant improvement, I don't know what is.
    btw, a Techart 580 was just tested by Excellence magazine and the 100-200 was a mediocre 8.1 seconds which tells me no way that car is making 580hp .



    To achieve a 0-200 kph (125 mph) acceleration time in 11 seconds, your car needs to have at least REAL 560-580 HP.
    We're talking about a streetlegal modded car, not a car without cats and lowered weight.

    German tuners have to comply with TÜV standards and regulations, this is the LAW in Germany. Meaning: it is much easier for a Tuner in the US for example to achieve a substantial amount of power more than a german Tuner. Some german Tuners are actually very clever, they sell non-TÜV approved stuff to the US and the Middle East, at the same time they hope that these cars will never be driven at the limit. I know several tuned cars who caught fire (mostly 996 Turbo and one 997 Turbo), apparently because of the tuning, so I leave it to you to judge.
    When US journalists testdrive Porsches tuned by german Tuners, they usually come to Europe to do that. Meaning: they usually get a streetlegal car, simply because most german Tuners can't afford of having two or three different tuned versions. Another thing is that the equipment usually used to testing is provided by the german Tuners, equipment which is calibrated and controlled by state laws. Just an example, I don't say that it is much different in the US.

    Like I said before, nothing in life is for free and ALL tuners are cooking with water like we say over here. The difference between them is: experience, knowledge of details, thorough testing and of course their financial possibilities. Give me a 997 Turbo motronic and a computer with the necessary software, I mod a dozend of mapping keys and I bet your car runs like hell. For a while...

    New engine cost is around 35000 Euro (I think something around 50000 USD in the US, I'm not sure about the latest engine prices of PCNA). We're talking about the engine only!
    Engine tuning is detectable by Porsche, if your engine breaks down, they do a thorough analysis of the motronic parameters and of course of the engine itself. Unless your dealer is willing to lie for you and to send false data to Porsche, you're busted. Since dealers usually get the bill from Porsche if something is wrong, I doubt that any serious dealer would take the risk to install a new engine on warranty and then not to be able to recover the cost from the customer.

    Like I said before, I don't care (anymore). I spent years of warning people to be careful but I also remember the whining "why do I need to pay 50000 bucks for a new engine?". This doesn't mean it will happen to you and anybody else. It CAN happen but the worst part is: the chances are PRETTY GOOD that it is going to happen and most people won't come back here to report how dumb they were. Please don't take this personal, this is just a "generalization" of what could happen, it doesn't have anything to do with your or your mods.

    Re: Streetable mods

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    aah986 said:
    My car was proof to me and I confirmed it by buying a Racelogic GPS device and testing the car. The 100-200km/h I got with the very first run in sport mode was 7.3 seconds and assuming the 0-100km/h did not improve, we are talking 11 seconds to 200km/h, down from 12.3-12.8 for the stock car. If this is not a significant improvement, I don't know what is.
    btw, a Techart 580 was just tested by Excellence magazine and the 100-200 was a mediocre 8.1 seconds which tells me no way that car is making 580hp .



    To achieve a 0-200 kph (125 mph) acceleration time in 11 seconds, your car needs to have at least REAL 560-580 HP.
    We're talking about a streetlegal modded car, not a car without cats and lowered weight.

    German tuners have to comply with TÜV standards and regulations, this is the LAW in Germany. Meaning: it is much easier for a Tuner in the US for example to achieve a substantial amount of power more than a german Tuner. Some german Tuners are actually very clever, they sell non-TÜV approved stuff to the US and the Middle East, at the same time they hope that these cars will never be driven at the limit. I know several tuned cars who caught fire (mostly 996 Turbo and one 997 Turbo), apparently because of the tuning, so I leave it to you to judge.
    When US journalists testdrive Porsches tuned by german Tuners, they usually come to Europe to do that. Meaning: they usually get a streetlegal car, simply because most german Tuners can't afford of having two or three different tuned versions. Another thing is that the equipment usually used to testing is provided by the german Tuners, equipment which is calibrated and controlled by state laws. Just an example, I don't say that it is much different in the US.

    Like I said before, nothing in life is for free and ALL tuners are cooking with water like we say over here. The difference between them is: experience, knowledge of details, thorough testing and of course their financial possibilities. Give me a 997 Turbo motronic and a computer with the necessary software, I mod a dozend of mapping keys and I bet your car runs like hell. For a while...

    New engine cost is around 35000 Euro (I think something around 50000 USD in the US, I'm not sure about the latest engine prices of PCNA). We're talking about the engine only!
    Engine tuning is detectable by Porsche, if your engine breaks down, they do a thorough analysis of the motronic parameters and of course of the engine itself. Unless your dealer is willing to lie for you and to send false data to Porsche, you're busted. Since dealers usually get the bill from Porsche if something is wrong, I doubt that any serious dealer would take the risk to install a new engine on warranty and then not to be able to recover the cost from the customer.

    Like I said before, I don't care (anymore). I spent years of warning people to be careful but I also remember the whining "why do I need to pay 50000 bucks for a new engine?". This doesn't mean it will happen to you and anybody else. It CAN happen but the worst part is: the chances are PRETTY GOOD that it is going to happen and most people won't come back here to report how dumb they were. Please don't take this personal, this is just a "generalization" of what could happen, it doesn't have anything to do with your or your mods.



    Work keeping you up, Christian?
    So, are you still considering modding your car, despite the inherent risks which you've just presented or have you decided that 500 PS is enough?

    Re: Streetable mods

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Work keeping you up, Christian?
    So, are you still considering modding your car, despite the inherent risks which you've just presented or have you decided that 500 PS is enough?



    Today is a holiday over here...thanks god.

    Honestly, I didn't mod my car yet, only the exhaust. I have five major Porsche Tuners in a 200 km radius, one even offered an engine mod at half the price just to report about it. I'm still waiting. The reason is simple: my 997 Turbo runs very well and up til now, I didn't meet ANY car on the Autobahn (or anywhere else ) to be able to keep up with me or even be faster. I usually have my fun with "fighting off" motorcycles, so you can imagine how fast the 997 Turbo is. So there is no real need for an engine mod but still...I think I want it. Stupid, right?!

    Maybe I'm waiting to see what Porsche is offering in the near future, especially because some Tuners are very clever using Porsche original parts (incl. the software) for their mods. Call me a "Pussy" but I really don't want to end up with a lot of problems which are NOT covered by Porsche warranty. It will need much more than some nice words or assurances from Tuners to make me "do it". Waiting always pays off regarding tuning, the more time passes by, the more engines are destroyed and the more tuners learn about possible problems.

    Re: Streetable mods

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Work keeping you up, Christian?
    So, are you still considering modding your car, despite the inherent risks which you've just presented or have you decided that 500 PS is enough?



    Today is a holiday over here...thanks god.

    Honestly, I didn't mod my car yet, only the exhaust. I have five major Porsche Tuners in a 200 km radius, one even offered an engine mod at half the price just to report about it. I'm still waiting. The reason is simple: my 997 Turbo runs very well and up til now, I didn't meet ANY car on the Autobahn (or anywhere else ) to be able to keep up with me or even be faster. I usually have my fun with "fighting off" motorcycles, so you can imagine how fast the 997 Turbo is. So there is no real need for an engine mod but still...I think I want it. Stupid, right?!

    Maybe I'm waiting to see what Porsche is offering in the near future, especially because some Tuners are very clever using Porsche original parts (incl. the software) for their mods. Call me a "Pussy" but I really don't want to end up with a lot of problems which are NOT covered by Porsche warranty. It will need much more than some nice words or assurances from Tuners to make me "do it". Waiting always pays off regarding tuning, the more time passes by, the more engines are destroyed and the more tuners learn about possible problems.



    Good to hear that the Turbo is so strong at the top end ! Regarding mods, I would hardly call anyone a pussy for not wanting to toy with their brand new 40.000 Euro engine (turbochargers cost an additional 5000 Euro, correct?). I know I wouldn't, unless the tuner offered a written warranty statement. Anyway, that tuner should have offered his package for free if he wanted you to play a guinea pig, not make you pay for it .

    Happy holiday!

    Re: Streetable mods

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    aah986 said:
    My car was proof to me and I confirmed it by buying a Racelogic GPS device and testing the car. The 100-200km/h I got with the very first run in sport mode was 7.3 seconds and assuming the 0-100km/h did not improve, we are talking 11 seconds to 200km/h, down from 12.3-12.8 for the stock car. If this is not a significant improvement, I don't know what is.
    btw, a Techart 580 was just tested by Excellence magazine and the 100-200 was a mediocre 8.1 seconds which tells me no way that car is making 580hp .



    To achieve a 0-200 kph (125 mph) acceleration time in 11 seconds, your car needs to have at least REAL 560-580 HP.
    We're talking about a streetlegal modded car, not a car without cats and lowered weight.

    German tuners have to comply with TÜV standards and regulations, this is the LAW in Germany. Meaning: it is much easier for a Tuner in the US for example to achieve a substantial amount of power more than a german Tuner. Some german Tuners are actually very clever, they sell non-TÜV approved stuff to the US and the Middle East, at the same time they hope that these cars will never be driven at the limit. I know several tuned cars who caught fire (mostly 996 Turbo and one 997 Turbo), apparently because of the tuning, so I leave it to you to judge.
    When US journalists testdrive Porsches tuned by german Tuners, they usually come to Europe to do that. Meaning: they usually get a streetlegal car, simply because most german Tuners can't afford of having two or three different tuned versions. Another thing is that the equipment usually used to testing is provided by the german Tuners, equipment which is calibrated and controlled by state laws. Just an example, I don't say that it is much different in the US.

    Like I said before, nothing in life is for free and ALL tuners are cooking with water like we say over here. The difference between them is: experience, knowledge of details, thorough testing and of course their financial possibilities. Give me a 997 Turbo motronic and a computer with the necessary software, I mod a dozend of mapping keys and I bet your car runs like hell. For a while...

    New engine cost is around 35000 Euro (I think something around 50000 USD in the US, I'm not sure about the latest engine prices of PCNA). We're talking about the engine only!
    Engine tuning is detectable by Porsche, if your engine breaks down, they do a thorough analysis of the motronic parameters and of course of the engine itself. Unless your dealer is willing to lie for you and to send false data to Porsche, you're busted. Since dealers usually get the bill from Porsche if something is wrong, I doubt that any serious dealer would take the risk to install a new engine on warranty and then not to be able to recover the cost from the customer.

    Like I said before, I don't care (anymore). I spent years of warning people to be careful but I also remember the whining "why do I need to pay 50000 bucks for a new engine?". This doesn't mean it will happen to you and anybody else. It CAN happen but the worst part is: the chances are PRETTY GOOD that it is going to happen and most people won't come back here to report how dumb they were. Please don't take this personal, this is just a "generalization" of what could happen, it doesn't have anything to do with your or your mods.



    I am with you about the tuning being a gamble and yes it is not for everyone. My post was in response to your initial statement that lower speed imrpovements are difficult and they are not. I agree that here in the US we will never find out how a US tuned car would do after several minutes of 200 mph runs, but we were talking about 0-200 km/h which takes only seconds and would unlikely put the car on fire.
    BTW, I have 8500 miles since the tune and I do not baby the car. No problems so far.

    Re: Streetable mods

    RC, I think the overwhelming majority of TT owners in the US are going to heed your advice. Usually the ones who will modify the new cars have enough money to support their HP fever, or are too impulsive to care. The real bulk of mods won't occur until these cars drift out of warranty and pass through their 2nd and 3rd owners.

    Re: Streetable mods

    690R EVOMS Upgrade. I will gladly pay for a new engine if these mods creator the original engine ... then I will gladly come to this board and bare my arse!

    Life is a risk for a gain. Some of us got to where we are in life by taking calculated risks for a gain. I have never (as in never ever) blown an engine due to pushing it too far. If this is the first time, so be it.

    I would agree that those that can't take the risk of paying for a new engine are playing with fire. However, for some of us, the risk is worth the gain!

    I have taken my 997TT as far as I am willing to risk for the engine it has installed in it. Although I have taken every precaution to keep things cool, I believe the biggest risk is that the set-up I have chosen will dissipate the additional heat caused by the added horsepower!

    I will keep you all posted!

    Re: Streetable mods

    I would add a peculiar trait of the TT engine that would tend to indicate Porsche's confidence in it's durability:

    The EGT probes are in the turbine housing of the turbos, and NOT in the headers. For those not familiar with the usage of EGT probes, they are used primarily to ascertain the state of the combustion chamber of the engine. EGT's are measured in aircraft and race engines to help learn the state of tune, if the engine is running too lean, too rich, timing, etc. Elevated EGTs suggest that an engine is running too close to the edge and may burn a piston or valve and require a major overhaul.

    Porsche decided to use EGT's to monitor the status of the turbos and not the combustion chambers. They are seemingly more concerned about the turbos than the engine. The turbo, unless the compressor wheel actually disintegrates and showers the intake path with metallic debris, cannot cause a catastrophic engine failure. A failed turbo (bearings cooked) will not spin faster than a healthy turbo. A failing turbo will generate less flow and thus lead to a rich condition, low boost condition, no boost situation. These are safe conditons compared to overboosting and going lean. No engine ever detonated on rich or low boost conditions. Detonation only occurs with over boost or lean-out.

    Why does Porsche do this? It is because the turbo IS the safety valve. It WILL fail before the engine. So, are we going to blow the motor before the turbo, very, very unlikely. It can happen, but Porsche must know that their combustion chamber is tolerant for a level of heat beyond the limit of the turbos.

    Re: Streetable mods

    RC is spot on as usual.

    Re: Streetable mods

    Quote:
    eclou said:
    Why does Porsche do this? It is because the turbo IS the safety valve. It WILL fail before the engine. So, are we going to blow the motor before the turbo, very, very unlikely. It can happen, but Porsche must know that their combustion chamber is tolerant for a level of heat beyond the limit of the turbos.



    Well...what does it help if the car catches fire because of overheating turbos/exhaust system and the engine is still OK?

    Re: Streetable mods

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    eclou said:
    Why does Porsche do this? It is because the turbo IS the safety valve. It WILL fail before the engine. So, are we going to blow the motor before the turbo, very, very unlikely. It can happen, but Porsche must know that their combustion chamber is tolerant for a level of heat beyond the limit of the turbos.



    Well...what does it help if the car catches fire because of overheating turbos/exhaust system and the engine is still OK?



    Forget the fire extinguisher. You don't want the car anymore even after a small engine fire.

    Most of the non factory Dyno reports cannot be accepted at face value.

    Not only are there different brand Dynometers, there are different ways of calibrating them and even different ways of operating them that can vary the results.

    And for all of the USA mods like ECU/200 cell cats, I bet that most of the modded US driven cars will not perform as well as a unmodded one driven hard at high speed lots in Germany.

    Porsche motors seem to run best when they have been driven very hard and near Vmax frequently. It really does loosen up the engine substantially.

    Re: Streetable mods

    How is the turbo going to overheat? The EGT probe is still there to measure and safeguard against overheating by pulling boost and timing?

    For a simple analogy, compare the turbo vs a heater in a room. You can run 2 heaters in 2 identical rooms. Both rooms(A+B) heat up to the same temperature. Take one room (A)and open all of the windows and turn on a ceiling fan. That room will be less hot than the room (B) with the closed windows. You might even turn up the heater controls on the room (A) with the open windows and that room will still be cooler than room (B). This is what reduction in backpressure is doing. Heat is no longer trapped in the turbo.

    Now RC your exhaust pipes may be getting hotter than on the stock car, since more heat is being expelled by the Cargraphic exhaust than the stock. That also means that your turbo is running cooler. Your turbo longevity will be improved.

    Re: Streetable mods

    eclou,

    You will acknowledge, as an "engineer" (professional, mechanical, chemical ?), that at some point in modding the 997TT, the stock turbo technology will not be acceptable and degrade. I think RC was simply pointing out the obvious limitations of the stock turbos. Again, you will ackowledge that all mechanical things have their limitations and tolerances for which they were built. When a modder grossly exceeds those tolerances their WILL be failure. The question becomes not will there be failure, but WHEN will it occur. Modders will presumptively swap out the 997TT turbos for Garretts (or whatever) at some HP level (maybe 700-750 crank hp ?). I'm guessing as to the specific level, but you get the point. Like engineers, not all tuners are equal. Just my 2 cents.

    Re: Streetable mods

    I calculated out that the stock turbos are drifting into a less efficient state at 1.2 bar. No one is contesting that point nor that increases in power/stress can lead to a loss in durability. It is not black and white, and there is not a fixed HP number after which the engine will just explode. We are not in any real disagreement.

     
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