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    Re: Cayman S Vs 997 report by AMS

    Thanks for the great write-up! I test-drove a Cayman S one week ago and came away very impressed. Balance, great handling, very stable, confidence-inspiring, great sound. It makes you smile while driving. Good power from idle to 3k rpm, kind of flat from 3k rpm to 4k rpm, then the car explodes from 4k rpm to redline. You really don't notice the location of the engine. You just drive it. It feels like a single-piece automobile. I call it a mini Ferrari. I would take it over a 911. I am thinking of getting it as a stable mate to my forthcoming Audi R8.

    Re: Cayman S Vs 997 report by AMS

    Quote:
    tony2006 said:
    I would take it over a 911.



    Indeed it would - except that Porsche will never give it sufficient power for that to happen - a great pity as it's a brilliant product with it's true potential hamstrung by Porsche's marketing and accountants.

    Re: Cayman S Vs 997 report by AMS

    Quote:
    dreamcar said:
    Quote:
    tony2006 said:
    I would take it over a 911.



    Indeed it would - except that Porsche will never give it sufficient power for that to happen



    The power is there. You just have to unleash it Its sooooo easy....

    Re: Cayman S Vs 997 report by AMS

    Quote:
    Cocodrilo said:
    The power is there. You just have to unleash it Its sooooo easy....



    Not to compete with a 911. I know what the car is capable of - I drive the roadster version with the same engine...

    Re: Cayman S Vs 997 report by AMS

    The AMS test was not very helpful. In fact its a rather misleading comparison and something they should be ashamed of publishing. Porsche has posited that the Cayman is one their sportiest handling cars while a stock suspension 997 is certainly not.

    Better would have been to compare a PCCB equipped Cayman S against a base 997 Carrera equipped with the optional Sport Suspension and LSD ..or at least PCCB that removes some unsprung weight and makes for crisper turn in.

    The 997 suspension is soft, the Cayman S suspension is not. End of story. A useless, almost Motor Trend like comparo by AMS. Shame on them.

    Re: Cayman S Vs 997 report by AMS

    I can't help feeling if the review concluded the Cayman S was crap vs. the 997 or the Boxster the general view would be the article would be held up as a accurate and a well written piece.

    It is a tough choice, I really love the new 997, its does everything so well, both the boring day to day stuff, plus it's great to drive like a lunatic. (I recently drove one at 176 MPH with one hand on the wheel, it felt entirely composed.) The trouble is the Cayman makes it feel flat footed by comparison. The handling is so sharp and it's just as engaging and rewarding to drive as its bigger brother.

    I've sold my Cayman and bought a 03 Boxster S for the summer, it's not half as good the Cayman, mainly the steering feel and accuracy, grip levels and cornering speed. I can feel the Boxster flexing; the roof creaks and windows move against the rubber seals of the windows when you go over rough ground, the Cayman sort of moved all of one piece. The ride is more compliant in the Boxster at lower speeds, you're not jiggled around as much, the other side of the coin is when you try and drive faster the chassis and suspension are fighting each other, the stiffer platform makes more difference the faster you go. It turns out I must have been using a lot more of the Caymans reserves of grip and poise than I thought, when I tried to take well know corners at a similar pace in the Boxster I nearly wrote it off and filled my pants at the same time. Once you get used to really high limits of cornering and balance its a bit tricky to go backwards. The Boxster seems to have a narrow window to catch any slide, you have to be quick, with the Cayman I was quite happy to perform 4 wheel drifts a round some bend/roundabouts up to 50 mph and was much happy to slide the car about.

    Still, I think it's going t be a good summer in the UK and a bit of roof down action should make up for it.

    Re: Cayman S Vs 997 report by AMS

    Cocodrilo

    I think what you have done with your car is the way foward, what mods have you got?

    Re: Cayman S Vs 997 report by AMS

    toplad, I really enjoyed reading everything you wrote in paragraphs 2-4 of your post #342609 above. It was very interesting to read your perspective comparing the Cayman and the Boxster 986S.

    In fact, you touched on a very inportant issue, namely, that the Cayman felt, to you, like it was "all of one piece".

    I can empathise with that totally. I assume the 997 you drove had either the standard (i.e. non S) 997 suspension or PASM.

    My car has -20mm sports suspension with rear LSD. The improvement is really drastic. My car feels like it was carved out of one solid piece of lightweight metal. It feels THAT good. Zero body roll. No discernible flexing. I am not exaggerating. And the cornering is astounding. It literally corners like it's on rails. (People often say that when describing other cars but they're exaggerating IMO. I don't believe that I am exaggerating at all when I say that about the -20mm with rear LSD set up). The steering talks to me continuously. I can imagine only the 997 GT3 could be even better somehow...It is the most amazing car I have ever driven.

    Anyway, my basic point is this, I don't think you have driven the best 911 Carrera set up so, with all due respect, please hold off making your judgement until you have done so.

    Now, I need to turn to your opening paragraph. This was really uncalled for. If the article had come down in favour of the non-S 997 over the Cayman S, I can assure you with all sincerity that I still wouldn't give this article any credence. It's so poorly written with such transparent bias that I really would not be interested in anything this writer could possibly have to say (even if he was equally biased in the opposite direction in favour of the 997).

    But what saddened me more was to read that you could think that the '911 crowd' here on rennteam could be so shallow as to applaud this mediocre writer if his conclusions were opposite. Please do not demean us in this way. We have far more integrity and sincerity than that comment would suggest. I do hope you will be good enough to take that remark back.

    Re: Cayman S Vs 997 report by AMS

    Quote:
    easy_rider911 said:
    toplad, I really enjoyed reading everything you wrote in paragraphs 2-4 of your post #342609 above. It was very interesting to read your perspective comparing the Cayman and the Boxster 986S.

    In fact, you touched on a very inportant issue, namely, that the Cayman felt, to you, like it was "all of one piece".

    I can empathise with that totally. I assume the 997 you drove had either the standard (i.e. non S) 997 suspension or PASM.

    My car has -20mm sports suspension with rear LSD. The improvement is really drastic. My car feels like it was carved out of one solid piece of lightweight metal. It feels THAT good. Zero body roll. No discernible flexing. I am not exaggerating. And the cornering is astounding. It literally corners like it's on rails. (People often say that when describing other cars but they're exaggerating IMO. I don't believe that I am exaggerating at all when I say that about the -20mm with rear LSD set up). The steering talks to me continuously. I can imagine only the 997 GT3 could be even better somehow...It is the most amazing car I have ever driven.

    Anyway, my basic point is this, I don't think you have driven the best 911 Carrera set up so, with all due respect, please hold off making your judgement until you have done so.

    Now, I need to turn to your opening paragraph. This was really uncalled for. If the article had come down in favour of the non-S 997 over the Cayman S, I can assure you with all sincerity that I still wouldn't give this article any credence. It's so poorly written with such transparent bias that I really would not be interested in anything this writer could possibly have to say (even if he was equally biased in the opposite direction in favour of the 997).

    But what saddened me more was to read that you could think that the '911 crowd' here on rennteam could be so shallow as to applaud this mediocre writer if his conclusions were opposite. Please do not demean us in this way. We have far more integrity and sincerity than that comment would suggest. I do hope you will be good enough to take that remark back.



    Hi easy

    I hear what you're saying regarding a 997 setup with LSD and -20m sports setup. It's an option I'd choose too.
    That's the basic sport chassis option on the list, isn't it? Not the same as the GT3 suspension which is the next level up and I think -30mm lower?

    The issue is not the suspension, its the engine placement which gives the Cayman more poise and less under steer before you actually turn in, with the any 911 you have to transfer the weight over the front wheel by braking more into the corners, this kills the natural under steer of the 911 and enables the tyres to get a purchase on the road, this as I'm sure your aware is the way to correctly drive any 911, the slow in fast out style (relatively speaking of course)
    I've driven a 996 with the sports chassis and it's an improvement of the basic setup, but it the engine position dictates the front end is light and a weight transfer is required. Of course this has other advantages of traction and grip once the initial turn-in stage of cornering is passed. Blasting out of corners is great fun. It's the dichotomy of the 911, the light front end which is reluctant to turn in, but once committed to the corner feels better than any other car I've driven. Which ever suspension setup you choose you'll always have this to contend with a light front end. That's why I prefer the poise and balance of a mid engine setup. The weight distribution is the key to the quicker and more nimble steering of the Boxster and the Cayman not suspension

    With regards to the comments on how valid the article is, I 'm afraid we will have to disagree unfortunately, I have noticed in the past many posters on this bb will not let anything which makes the some aspects of the Cayman out to better in some way than the 996,997 or Boxster stand as true and these comments or articles are generally dismissed as poor or Porsche marketing in some way. Some of the Rennteam crowd are that swallow and always have been since the concept was first announced. Even now silly comments like "Boxster with a fixed roof blah,blah " etc still prevail.

    My intention wasn't to offered you, but I'm sorry I don't agree

    Regards

    Re: Cayman S Vs 997 report by AMS

    For the 911 Carrera, the -20mm set up is the most sporty factory fitted suspension available.

    The GT3 set up is -30mm BUT it is not conventionally sprung like the -20mm. The GT3 set up is an improved PASM set up AFAIK.

    Of course, I agree about the 'slow in/fast out' cornering technique used by 911 drivers. When only 38% of the weight is on the front axle, one has to adapt one's driving style to take account of the light front end. But, as you rightly said, the traction out of corners is a unique and exhilarating feeling.

    Regarding engine position, it all boils down to whether you prefer a 'mid-engined' or '911 rear-engined' experience. Obviously, this is an individual choice and there are no right or wrong answers. All that matters is what gives a particular driver the thrill or buzz that he/she is seeking.

    If I had to put forward an opposing view to the 'greater poise' argument you made, it would be as follows. With the Boxster 987S and Cayman S that I have test driven, I felt that the car made light work of the cornering challenge. These cars flattered my driving ability. With the 997, it is less easy to get a corner just right i.e where one feels that one went round the corner as quickly as possible on the limit with maximum control. As such, it is more of a challenge and therefore more satisfying when one does get it right. Ultimately, I would argue that it's a more rewarding drive because of this challenge. By contrast, a mid-engined car requires less concentration and less skill IMHO. I think a 997 offers a 'more rewarding experience' as a result without us having to debate endlessly about which is the 'better car' because then we are scuppered by the issue of 'better for WHOM'...

    Regarding the article, I hear what you say and, yes, we'll have to agree to disagree on that issue.

    Regarding rennteamers' perceived prejudice, I must say I am still adamant that it's grossly unfair to generalise about what people may have written in the past. You can either generalise about all of us or not. I myself have not knowingly been rude about the Cayman so I would certainly hope you wouldn't include me in your generalisation. But then we're all being tarred with the same brush.

    Re: Cayman S Vs 997 report by AMS

    Quote:
    toplad said:
    Even now silly comments like "Boxster with a fixed roof blah,blah " etc still prevail.




    Why is that a silly comment? Why can't you and certain others accept the fact that the Cayman IS a Boxster with a fixed roof. That's not meant as an insult to the Cayman it is stating the blatantly obvious truth. I quote Autocar from their article dated 6th December 2006, remember that that magazine have gone into raptures over the Cayman and it won their best drivers car of the year in 2006 - so no prejudice there against the Cayman :-

    "Think of the new Boxster S merely as an open topped version of one of the world's best coupes. In fact, think of it as one of the worlds's best open cars that happens to come in coupe form with a different name on its tail".

    Re: Cayman S Vs 997 report by AMS

    Quote:
    easy_rider911 said:
    For the 911 Carrera, the -20mm set up is the most sporty factory fitted suspension available.

    The GT3 set up is -30mm BUT it is not conventionally sprung like the -20mm. The GT3 set up is an improved PASM set up AFAIK.

    Of course, I agree about the 'slow in/fast out' cornering technique used by 911 drivers. When only 38% of the weight is on the front axle, one has to adapt one's driving style to take account of the light front end. But, as you rightly said, the traction out of corners is a unique and exhilarating feeling.

    Regarding engine position, it all boils down to whether you prefer a 'mid-engined' or '911 rear-engined' experience. Obviously, this is an individual choice and there are no right or wrong answers. All that matters is what gives a particular driver the thrill or buzz that he/she is seeking.

    If I had to put forward an opposing view to the 'greater poise' argument you made, it would be as follows. With the Boxster 987S and Cayman S that I have test driven, I felt that the car made light work of the cornering challenge. These cars flattered my driving ability. With the 997, it is less easy to get a corner just right i.e where one feels that one went round the corner as quickly as possible on the limit with maximum control. As such, it is more of a challenge and therefore more satisfying when one does get it right. Ultimately, I would argue that it's a more rewarding drive because of this challenge. By contrast, a mid-engined car requires less concentration and less skill IMHO. I think a 997 offers a 'more rewarding experience' as a result without us having to debate endlessly about which is the 'better car' because then we are scuppered by the issue of 'better for WHOM'...

    Regarding the article, I hear what you say and, yes, we'll have to agree to disagree on that issue.

    Regarding rennteamers' perceived prejudice, I must say I am still adamant that it's grossly unfair to generalise about what people may have written in the past. You can either generalise about all of us or not. I myself have not knowingly been rude about the Cayman so I would certainly hope you wouldn't include me in your generalisation. But then we're all being tarred with the same brush.



    997 more rewarding to drive than the Cayman S?

    I'd say probably. The Cayman does flatter the driver (as does the modern 911 btw), but it's still very involving to drive; balancing the car on the throttle to carry extra speed through corners is a very rewarding process. The Cayman has something for the novice driver and for the experienced driver alike, before I purchased the Cayman I was concerned it would be to easy to driver and a bit dull, but it wasn't and enjoyed just cruising about or driving the wheels off the thing, I preferred it to the 911 layout overall. Sometimes I found it a bit tiresome to do the "911 weight transfer thing" when I couldn't be arsed thinking about it and just want to get from A-B quickly.

    As you say it's down to personal tastes and both cars are quality pieces of kit and very quick on a charge. For the record I do exclude you from my generalisations after our chat, but it's not really a Perceived prejudice, it's an actually prejudice, not so long ago the bb was a baron waste land, with no Cayman owners posting and soon being ganged up on by various posters with Cayman Axe's to grind if their did post anything positive. Ever thread ended up with the same members posting the same comments time and time again. RC, himself has always been very negative about the Cayman and this helped to reduce the number new posts to maybe one a week, even now it's not exactly a hive of activity. Today there's no Cayman owners who regularly post on Rennteam, there all had an enough of constant bickering and cleeks, the majority of poster are 911 and Boxster owners, which tells you something.

    DreamCar I don't know why I'm going to bother, but you imply the Cayman is just Boxster with a fixed roof and this doesn't offer any kind of benefit over the Boxster, it does make the car stiffer and it performs better for it.
    I found this extra stiffness improved the ability to soak up bumps, improved cornering speeds and confidence on smooth and lumpy tarmac, provided more front and rear grip, improved the feel steering by a noticeable amount, with the front end being more tied in to the road, changed the whole feel of the car, gave it a harder edge than the Boxster, which feels a bit softer and isn't the drivers car that the Cayman is. You don't have to drive at the limit to notice the difference either.

    Re: Cayman S Vs 997 report by AMS

    Quote:
    toplad said:
    DreamCar I don't know why I'm going to bother, but you imply the Cayman is just Boxster with a fixed roof and this doesn't offer any kind of benefit over the Boxster,




    The words are Autocar's, not mine. But then they don't have delude themselves, do they?

    Re: Cayman S Vs 997 report by AMS

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    The AMS test was not very helpful. In fact its a rather misleading comparison and something they should be ashamed of publishing. Porsche has posited that the Cayman is one their sportiest handling cars while a stock suspension 997 is certainly not.

    Better would have been to compare a PCCB equipped Cayman S against a base 997 Carrera equipped with the optional Sport Suspension and LSD ..or at least PCCB that removes some unsprung weight and makes for crisper turn in.

    The 997 suspension is soft, the Cayman S suspension is not. End of story. A useless, almost Motor Trend like comparo by AMS. Shame on them.



    Jim in that AMS comparison test 997 Carrera was equiped with optional -20mm/LSD!

    Re: Cayman S Vs 997 report by AMS

    I knew I shouldn't have bothered with you.

    Maybe if you weren't such a [beep] driver you'd be able to tell the difference.

    Re: Cayman S Vs 997 report by AMS

    Quote:
    toplad said:
    I knew I shouldn't have bothered with you.

    Maybe if you weren't such a [beep] driver you'd be able to tell the difference.



    If you bothered to read Autocar's article they couldn't tell the difference either with the latest revisions. You must be a more discerning driver than their testers, also?

    Re: Cayman S Vs 997 report by AMS

    Kreso, Thank you for clearing that up .

    It would be interesting to see a AMS comparo test of a same year and identically configured C7S, 987S and a base model zero option 987. I am curious to see much $$ per tenth of a second it costs to get a quicker lap Ring time.

    Re: Cayman S Vs 997 report by AMS

    For me the Cayman S is my first Porsche and the entry ticket to the Porsche world. The 911 is an icon for sure but the Cayman S seems to be designed in heaven and drives perfectly. That said I wonder why we don't see more Cayman's on the roads in Europe. Maybe those customers interested in a Porsche move directly to the 911 or go to a Boxster because they want a convertible. If I had the chance to move up to the 911 it would be an S model for sure and hopefully not under 400 hp (new model with power kit). The difference in price and performance between the Cayman S and the base 911 is for sure in favour of the Cayman. If you move up in the 911 range I think the 911 wins.
    German

    Re: Cayman S Vs 997 report by AMS

    I would go for a Cayman S over a 997 (Not S). IMO there is not a such huge difference for the performance of the cars and Cayman S looks so wild.

    But of course Carrera S a different story...

    Re: Cayman S Vs 997 report by AMS

    Quote:
    VGA18 said:
    I would go for a Cayman S over a 997 (Not S). IMO there is not a such huge difference for the performance of the cars and Cayman S looks so wild.

    But of course Carrera S a different story...



    Don't tell toplad, but so would I, not for the looks as much as the drive...

    Re: Cayman S Vs 997 report by AMS

    Quote:
    dreamcar said:
    Quote:
    VGA18 said:
    I would go for a Cayman S over a 997 (Not S). IMO there is not a such huge difference for the performance of the cars and Cayman S looks so wild.

    But of course Carrera S a different story...



    Don't tell toplad, but so would I, not for the looks as much as the drive...



    You wouldn't appreciate it anyway, you're to busy mincing about in your Boxster like a big girls blouse


    Re: Cayman S Vs 997 report by AMS

    Quote:
    toplad said:
    You wouldn't appreciate it anyway, you're to busy mincing about in your Boxster like a big girls blouse




    A childish and moronic comment. I shouldn't have expected any better, I suppose.

    Re: Cayman S Vs 997 report by AMS

    The weight distribution is the key to the quicker and more nimble steering of the Boxster and the Cayman not suspension
    => Funny, because I much prefer the 911 weight distribution.
    It's MORE FUN. I had a boxster. Yes it is easier and quicker...but it does not communicate the same feeling that you *are*about*to*be*too*fast* that the 911 does.
    Also, unless they fit a LSD to the boxster/cayman, there is no way back for me...I just love the traction of the 911...let alone the C4 I drive now.
    A hairpin exit on the wet with a boxster/cayman is just a frustrating experience...

    Re: Cayman S Vs 997 report by AMS

    Quote:
    Jeannot said:
    The weight distribution is the key to the quicker and more nimble steering of the Boxster and the Cayman not suspension
    => Funny, because I much prefer the 911 weight distribution.
    It's MORE FUN. I had a boxster. Yes it is easier and quicker...but it does not communicate the same feeling that you *are*about*to*be*too*fast* that the 911 does.
    Also, unless they fit a LSD to the boxster/cayman, there is no way back for me...I just love the traction of the 911...let alone the C4 I drive now.
    A hairpin exit on the wet with a boxster/cayman is just a frustrating experience...




    I know what you mean, the 911 weight distribution is highly entertaining and provides more grip exiting wet hairpins, but I don't thinks it's more fun. The more accurate steering and balance allow the Cayman driver to slice through corners with a lot of speed, I always found this rewarding in the Cayman. The Cayman is a lot more keyed into the road than 986 or 987 Boxster. The steering gives the same levels of feed back as aa 997, but not quite as much as information as the 996 steering, which I rated the least filtered and best out of the bunch but, its not as tight with more play than the Cayman's

    Both chassis setups are highly entertaining, it's just down to driver choice

    Re: Cayman S Vs 997 report by AMS

    Depends what is fun for you. Slicing (easily) through the corners with a lot of speed may be fun to you. I just call it going fast :-)
    I have much more fun from doing the same with a 911...regardless of the speed achieved :-)

    Re: Cayman S Vs 997 report by AMS

    Those that pout that the steering on a Cayman is better than a 997 might want to strengthen their limpy wrists and focus on driving more instead of playing with their cellphone, makeup, Cayman passenger etc..

    Re: Cayman S Vs 997 report by AMS

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Those that pout that the steering on a Cayman is better than a 997 might want to strengthen their limpy wrists and focus on driving more instead of playing with their cellphone, makeup, Cayman passenger etc..



    Now, who's just been a bit of a Cock for the sake of it?

    Re: Cayman S Vs 997 report by AMS

    997 owners may be busy with their passengers too :-)

    Re: Cayman S Vs 997 report by AMS

    Wow, I don't believe I read through this whole thing...

    Ah well, it reminds me why I no longer visit here very often.

    Re: Cayman S Vs 997 report by AMS

    Quote:
    Jeannot said:
    The weight distribution is the key to the quicker and more nimble steering of the Boxster and the Cayman not suspension
    => Funny, because I much prefer the 911 weight distribution.
    It's MORE FUN. I had a boxster. Yes it is easier and quicker...but it does not communicate the same feeling that you *are*about*to*be*too*fast* that the 911 does.
    Also, unless they fit a LSD to the boxster/cayman, there is no way back for me...I just love the traction of the 911...let alone the C4 I drive now.
    A hairpin exit on the wet with a boxster/cayman is just a frustrating experience...



    why didn't you get a 9974S? have you driven one? if so, how much better is it?

    and maybe you could elaborate on your last comment about the "frustrating experience" of driving in the wet in a cayman?

    thank you.

     
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