Crown

What do you mean by breaking traction? 

"A man wrapped up in himself makes for a very small bundle."

It means the TC kicks in.

noone1:

It means the TC kicks in.

This - In a straight line under full throttle.... it is the torque which causes it, Whoopsy's source probably meant (it lost traction/TC intervention) on uneven roads which can happen in 4th gear with 800NM, Porsche aren't in the business of selling dangerous cars, they learnt that lesson with the CGT. 

997 GT2 2014 3.9 Mezger, 800PS @ 1.2 bar

993 Turbo, 2006 built 3.8, 577PS/797NM, 1440kg DIN

TB993tt:

noone1:

It means the TC kicks in.

This - In a straight line under full throttle.... it is the torque which causes it, Whoopsy's source probably meant (it lost traction/TC intervention) on uneven roads which can happen in 4th gear with 800NM, Porsche aren't in the business of selling dangerous cars, they learnt that lesson with the CGT. 

Very likely you are correct, I didn't not ask for elaboration before.

Regardless, In 2 weeks we are going to have a private session with FSW and AP with the car in Goodwood. Sort of like a couple years ago in Geneva with the 911R.

This is going to be one scary car to drive! I like the fact the Turbo is AWD and the GT3 is not such a monster to drive. Then again I like things that scare me 

Tesla Model S P100D & Model X P90D & 2016 BMW i8 & 2014 991 TTS Cab - Sept 991.2 GT3 ordered. 2017 Porsche Mission E on order

EnglishManInNY:

This is going to be one scary car to drive! I like the fact the Turbo is AWD and the GT3 is not such a monster to drive. Then again I like things that scare me 

With modern ESP systems even 700hp RWD (rear/mid engine) car is not so scary. The 488 is surprisingly manageable. Of course is has a more linear power delivery than the Turbo. When I think about it if the GT2 makes an even bigger "power explosion" over the same relatively narrow power band as the Turbo it could be scary :)

The explosiveness of the Turbo also has to do with the AWD, maximum power is being put down via unbelievable traction.

Same power will not be that explosive in a RWD car, the extra thrust available will just turned into rubber smoke, or killed off by the traction control.

Whoopsy:

The explosiveness of the Turbo also has to do with the AWD, maximum power is being put down via unbelievable traction.

Same power will not be that explosive in a RWD car, the extra thrust available will just turned into rubber smoke, or killed off by the traction control.

 

It is interesting that they are suggesting 0-100kph in 2.9s (and 200kph in under 9s) which suggests similar traction to the the AWD turbo, this makes me wonder if the GT2 will have some kind of boost by gear to limit the torque in first and probably second to produce this impressive (for a 2WD) traction....

997 GT2 2014 3.9 Mezger, 800PS @ 1.2 bar

993 Turbo, 2006 built 3.8, 577PS/797NM, 1440kg DIN

I suppose the wider rear tires and its different specification ( MPSC or some special Dunlop ) will increase traction a bit compaired with the Turbos more narrow standard tires☺

I would certainly think Porsche would apply the same approach as Ferrari did with the 488 regarding power delivery, capping the torque in 1st gear and gradually upping the limit in subsequent gear changes. 

The wider tires help a bit, but even in the GT3RS the rear tires can be easily be smoked during acceleration from rest, well at least in 1st gear. 

TB993tt:

noone1:

It means the TC kicks in.

This - In a straight line under full throttle.... it is the torque which causes it, Whoopsy's source probably meant (it lost traction/TC intervention) on uneven roads which can happen in 4th gear with 800NM, Porsche aren't in the business of selling dangerous cars, they learnt that lesson with the CGT. 

Should say : "dangerous drivers not CGT".

Dangerous car would be the one that does something unexpected and is unpredictable.

CGT was VERY predictable and did not suffer fools, stupidity and lack of respect for that car were punished swiftly and harshly.

absent:

Should say : "dangerous drivers not CGT".

Dangerous car would be the one that does something unexpected and is unpredictable.

CGT was VERY predictable and did not suffer fools, stupidity and lack of respect for that car were punished swiftly and harshly.

From the starting point that all 400+hp/tonne cars are inherently "dangerous" the CGT needed PSM to take it to the same level of safety as other Porsches of the era. The TC on the CGT was inadequate for taming a very torquey 600hp motor if driven with gusto on cambered lumpy roads, the amount which have been written off reinforces this belief  rather than me and all the drivers having the crashes being total imbeciles behind the wheel 

997 GT2 2014 3.9 Mezger, 800PS @ 1.2 bar

993 Turbo, 2006 built 3.8, 577PS/797NM, 1440kg DIN

absent:

TB993tt:

noone1:

It means the TC kicks in.

This - In a straight line under full throttle.... it is the torque which causes it, Whoopsy's source probably meant (it lost traction/TC intervention) on uneven roads which can happen in 4th gear with 800NM, Porsche aren't in the business of selling dangerous cars, they learnt that lesson with the CGT. 

Should say : "dangerous drivers not CGT".

Dangerous car would be the one that does something unexpected and is unpredictable.

CGT was VERY predictable and did not suffer fools, stupidity and lack of respect for that car were punished swiftly and harshly.

Very predictable doesn't mean it's a safe car.

Why did you think Porsche started the Sports Driving School?

when the 930 Turbo first came out, people were crashing left and right. It wasn't very good reputation wise for Porsche, even though the tail going away when lifting is extremely predictable, plus the dose of extra torque when boost comes on. Porsche started the school to educate their customers on how to drive a rear engined widow maker. 

I predict this car is going to become uncontrollable the moment I do this slightly wrong.

Predictable doesn't mean safe. The CGT was such that the tires of that tire and lack of electronic aides meant it was very easy for someone to overstep their talent and wreck it.

I would say 95% of all exotic owners fit into the "inexperienced fools who lack respect for the car" category. Of the last 5%, it's say 95% of those don't even set foot on a track and just get on the highway and go full throttle expecting planted, perfect performance. This is why we have the modern TC/ESP systems in these super high performance cars.

You guys only prove my point, not the fault of the car that most of the drivers lack necessary skills to take it anywhere near the limits.

Electronic nannies did not exist not that long ago and all drivers had to deal with it, it made them better suited to deal with high performance vs today when most have to rely on "help" to be able to drive these cars (or any cars for that matter).

Just because the car is built like they used to be, without babysitters watching your every move and reigning you in when you do anything aggressive, does not make it dangerous.

There is nothing in CGT that can MAKE you cause a crash, granted there is nothing to prevent it either when your actions lead to one.

Cars are crashing left and right when their owners turn off the aids (trying to show off? overestimating own skills?).

In essence, are you saying that cars are  dangerous when not equipped with electronic nannies?

I think the feeling of safety comes from how the car is set up.  Bobby Rahal told me concerning the CGT he used to own, "Those things oversteer like crazy!"  

Yes ... they...do.  I adjusted the rear anti-roll bar in mine to full soft and increased the rear tire section from 335 to 345 to try to get some more rear stiction.  It helped immensely.  However, the 918's rear-wheel-steering makes me never want to drive a CGT again.

The CGT seemed set up from the factory to be entertaining for ex-karting jockeys who delight in using 20+ degree rear slip angle to corner the car because they're used to locked rear ends.  I'm a conventional 911 pilot from the old days and using wild rear slip angles makes me nervous as heck.

If anything, the CGT was the true "widow maker" for no reason better than it was cool to drive it like a drift car.  It's very difficult to be smooth enough to be truly fast with ass-out attitude required in the CGT.  If the ass wasn't out while you drove, Z06 Corvettes would eat you alive at track days.

Nannies be damned, better chassis setup is all I wanted and the CGT didn't have it.

Flame suit on!

Mike

918 Spyder + 991 GT3 RS +Tesla Roadster 1.5 & Model S + Panamera Turbo +  BMW Z8 + BMW 3.0 CSi + Bentley Arnage T

absent:

You guys only prove my point, not the fault of the car that most of the drivers lack necessary skills to take it anywhere near the limits.

Electronic nannies did not exist not that long ago and all drivers had to deal with it, it made them better suited to deal with high performance vs today when most have to rely on "help" to be able to drive these cars (or any cars for that matter).

Agree with what W8MM says re the CGT but also worth pointing out re the above statement  that 600hp/600NM cars were not around pre electronic nannies, in the 959/F40 era 450PS was about all you got.

I do agree that the new super nannies have meant that there are now plenty of rich owners with access to mega hp exotica who in days gone by would be in trouble, I remember in about 1988 driving my 911SC around a track and watching a friend's colleague being schooled by his 959 as it went tail first off the track and into the barrier - my friend was an experienced racer (ironically he has crashed a CGT) and his colleague was his wealthy (but not into driving) business associate who wanted in on the deal when they purchased two 959s ! 

997 GT2 2014 3.9 Mezger, 800PS @ 1.2 bar

993 Turbo, 2006 built 3.8, 577PS/797NM, 1440kg DIN

As I never put a foot in a CGT, and I most likely never will get the opportunity to drive one I enjoy reading about your experiences with the CGT. 
 

Kobalt:

As I never put a foot in a CGT, and I most likely never will get the opportunity to drive one I enjoy reading about your experiences with the CGT. 
 

Agreed! It remains my ultimate goal. Stories like these just add to its legend..

1992 Mercedes-Benz W124 500E / 2003 BMW M3 CSL (sold) / 2008 Porsche 911 GT3 RS / 2014 BMW-Alpina D3 biturbo Touring / 2014 BMW-Alpina B3 biturbo Touring Allrad

I drove the CGT a couple of times but always had the necessary respect for this car, especially since I always had Walter Roehrl's mishap in mind (there is a video). I still believe though that under normal driving circumstances, the CGT isn't hard to drive, at least not harder than my R8 with ESP turned off (Audi did a bad job here in my opinion). 

In the end, it always comes to the driver and his skills and of course how much risk he is willing to take. I almost crashed  my R8 over here  in Italy because I forgot to re-activate the ESP (once you switch to Performance Dry, the ESP switches into the sportiest and almost non inteusive mode) and wasn't expecting that sudden and quite scary oversteer, which could have ended in a serious spin at higher speeds (I was doing around 80-100 kph close to a rockface). The road was a tiny bit wider than my car, so I was really lucky that I drove with ESP partially turned off before and adapted fast enough. Shit happens when you play around with ESP and driving modes, probably why these systems always reset themselves to stamdard factory setup once you turn off the engine. 

The CGT has basically only one driving mode (OK, two with TC) but the driving behavior is actually the same all the time, so no big deal adapting. With the CGT the driver is the weak link, not the car. Also maybe the tires when some owners choose to do a few hundreds of kilometers per year with ten year old tires. Just dumb!

Knowing how much Porsche cares about safety and chassis setups, I bet that even with ESP turned off, the new GT2 RS will be quite forgiving, even without the electronic nannies.

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

Of course the CGT isn't hard to drive normal. No car is. It's not hard to drive a car in a straight line and reasonable speeds.

WM's impression seemed to be an indication of what it was like -- the car wasn't high performance unless you're high performance and willing to push it to the extreme. You had a $500K car slower than a Z06 unless you were willing to let it drift.

You can deny that it was one of the most wrecked exotics. It's not a coincidence. The car's set up was not user friendly to anyone but the most talented. Even people just getting a little liberal with the throttle ended up backwards of the road.

I pushed it quite hard and never had an issue, also CR owns one for many years now and already had some substantial track time in it but never crashed it. Almost is almost. Scary car? Not really, unless you drive faster your own skills set permits. Then, it is called stupidity (if you crash it).

Drove a Testarossa many years ago and was actually more scared... (OK, the tires were almost gone...).

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

Yes, with electronic nannies everyone can be fast in a super sportscar but there is a difference between drivers driving a clean line and not "throwing" the car around and drivers who drive like jerks, so the ESP/TC come on all the time, thus making them slower. The nannies usually come on hard only if you drive like a jerk.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

TB993tt:

 

Agree with what W8MM says re the CGT but also worth pointing out re the above statement  that 600hp/600NM cars were not around pre electronic nannies, in the 959/F40 era 450PS was about all you got.

 

 

You should try a 500hp corvette back in 67 on bias ply tires....

All cars are safe if you drive them at normal speeds. But the true safety of a car is when it is used for the purpose it was intended. The CGT was undriveable (at least to me) because any injudicious use of the throttle will puts you into the weeds. If I am not mistaken, the car initially was designed for Porsche racing and Porsche transitioned it to a limited edition road car. The public was not ready for this car.

"A man wrapped up in himself makes for a very small bundle."

nberry:

All cars are safe if you drive them at normal speeds. But the true safety of a car is when it is used for the purpose it was intended. The CGT was undriveable (at least to me) because any injudicious use of the throttle will puts you into the weeds. If I am not mistaken, the car initially was designed for Porsche racing and Porsche transitioned it to a limited edition road car. The public was not ready for this car.

Only the engine was based on the racing car Nick.

We are all spoiled now, the electronics are allowing non professionals drive any car as hard as we want without fear of killing ourselves.

That fear was good though, it forced drivers to acknowledge their own limitations and adjust their driving style accordingly.

Skill was much more important then the actual performance, unlike today.

So I insist on my previous statement that the CGT is not a dangerous car unless you want to call it that for the lack of nannies only.

Design wise there was nothing wrong with it, quite opposite and when treated with respect and driven without exceeding one's abilities, it was a very predictable, safe and satisfying car.

It was my worst car decision ever to sell mine, call me stupid and I won't deny it.....

Someone was mentioning the new magnesium rims on the GT2 RS being maybe the same ones as on the Manthey ( BBS )

I was at Paul Richard these last days and there was an 918 owner who came with two cars .  His ' second' car was this Manthey GT3 RS with the rims we were talking about :

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 964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm --  991 GT3 RS 

Gnil:

Someone was mentioning the new magnesium rims on the GT2 RS being maybe the same ones as on the Manthey ( BBS )

I was at Paul Richard these last days and there was an 918 owner who came with two cars .  His ' second' car was this Manthey GT3 RS with the rims we were talking about :

--

 

 964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm --  991 GT3 RS 

 

great observation!!! how much are those manthey rims?

For information Manthey program :

997 GT3 RS 3.6 - 964 RS - 993 RS -  991 GT3 RS