Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: Test Auto Motor Sport 997 Turbo - Page3

Jun 8, 2006 6:48:38 PM

TB993tt: Rennteam Pro; Loc: manchester , United Kingdom; Posts: 2280, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 22, 2002; Reply to: Crash

Re: Test Auto Motor Sport 997 Turbo

Crash
The GT2 II has 483 Porsche hp, not the meanderings of chassis dynos. The Murci is 4WD and has Lambo/Audi hp

Edit: Thanks VGA - AND the murci is 300kg heavier than the GT2
W8MM
My 40hp is a bit of a guesstimate based on before/after acceleration data, there was also quite a bit of weight lost which fogs the calculation somewhat. The driveshaft on the 993tt is a big old heavy piece, must weigh 20kg on its own ! - takes a bit of winding up.

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Jun 8, 2006 6:56:45 PM

VGA18: Veteran; Loc: Istanbul and Tampa; Posts: 1029, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2006; Reply to: TB993tt

Re: Test Auto Motor Sport 997 Turbo

Quote:
TB993tt said:
Crash
The GT2 II has 483 Porsche hp, not the meanderings of chassis dynos. The Murci is 4WD and has Lambo/Audi hp
W8MM
My 40hp is a bit of a guesstimate based on before/after acceleration data, there was also quite a bit of weight lost which fogs the calculation somewhat. The driveshaft on the 993tt is a big old heavy piece, must weigh 20kg on its own ! - takes a bit of winding up.

Murci is 300kg heavier than GT2

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Jun 8, 2006 7:05:11 PM

eclou: Veteran; Loc: Texas , United States; Posts: 1182, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 4, 2006; Reply to: W8MM

Re: Test Auto Motor Sport 997 Turbo

Quote:
W8MM said:
Quote:
TB993tt said:
- my observations (involving going 4WD to 2WD with the same tuned 540hp engine (993tt)) is that the lack of drag from having to wind up all the 4WD shaft and mechanism is worth around 40 FWHP.

It is probably higher than 40hp. Drivetrain losses are usually calculated as a percentage, with 15-20% typical for a 2wd manual system. For 4wd and automatic it could be much higher

Wow!

I would never have guessed that there was so much rotary inertia involved in a drive shaft, two half-shafts, and an extra differential, or two.

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Jun 8, 2006 8:06:00 PM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: TB993tt

Re: Test Auto Motor Sport 997 Turbo

Quote:
TB993tt said:
Crash
The GT2 II has 483 Porsche hp, not the meanderings of chassis dynos. The Murci is 4WD and has Lambo/Audi hp Edit: Thanks VGA - AND the murci is 300kg heavier than the GT2
W8MM
My 40hp is a bit of a guesstimate based on before/after acceleration data, there was also quite a bit of weight lost which fogs the calculation somewhat. The driveshaft on the 993tt is a big old heavy piece, must weigh 20kg on its own ! - takes a bit of winding up.

What I meant was that the GT2 certainly behaves like a car with more usual horsepower than it has. Whether other manufacturers are overstating their horsepower is another matter. Also, I know the Murci is 300 kilos heavier, but its 0-200 km/h time is only half a second slower than the GT2's and it still doesn't leave it behind all the way to 300 km/h. That's what impresses me.

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Jun 8, 2006 8:18:17 PM

JimFlat6: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cave , United States; Posts: 8633, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 25, 2004; Reply to: Crash

Re: Test Auto Motor Sport 997 Turbo

It might be 300Kg heavier, but I am sure it sounds 300 times better.

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Jun 8, 2006 8:20:18 PM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: JimFlat6

Re: Test Auto Motor Sport 997 Turbo

Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
It might be 300Kg heavier, but I am sure it sounds 300 times better.

No doubt about it. I'd take a 640 in a heartbeat. However, take the GT2 to Ruf to install the 590 or the 650 package and you get something very scary

.

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Jun 8, 2006 8:27:16 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59598, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: Crash

Re: Test Auto Motor Sport 997 Turbo

As much as I'm a Porsche addict: if I win the lottery tomorrow (the grand prize of course...

), I'd buy a Lamborghini Murcielago LP640 in a heartbeat. This car is just pure heaven...or at least it should be since I never drove it. Performance seems to be great, looks...well...forget about Ferrari and the sound of the engine/exhaust is the sexiest sound I ever heard.

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Jun 8, 2006 8:35:37 PM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: RC

Re: Test Auto Motor Sport 997 Turbo

Quote:
RC said:
As much as I'm a Porsche addict: if I win the lottery tomorrow (the grand prize of course... ), I'd buy a Lamborghini Murcielago LP640 in a heartbeat. This car is just pure heaven...or at least it should be since I never drove it. Performance seems to be great, looks...well...forget about Ferrari and the sound of the engine/exhaust is the sexiest sound I ever heard.

Vroom, vroom! Screech! Nyyyaaaaaoooooouuuu!!! *10 seconds later* "200 km/h? Nicht schlecht, Albrecht!"

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Jun 8, 2006 8:39:10 PM

JimFlat6: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cave , United States; Posts: 8633, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 25, 2004; Reply to: RC

Re: Test Auto Motor Sport 997 Turbo

Apparently only Lambo has the stones to make a real supercar anymore.

The F430 is nice, but its not a supercar. The 599 is just too conservative, the Enzo is gone and was a game to start with, and the Veyron is more like a Peich career tribute item.

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Jun 8, 2006 9:00:32 PM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: JimFlat6

Re: Test Auto Motor Sport 997 Turbo

Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
Apparently only Lambo has the stones to make a real supercar anymore.

The F430 is nice, but its not a supercar. The 599 is just too conservative, the Enzo is gone and was a game to start with, and the Veyron is more like a Peich career tribute item.

Yeah, the Murc seems to be the only real exotic supercar nowadays. Not really completely unaffordable (costs less than two 997TT's), but definitely very expensive, superior performance and the looks of a missile. Compare that to the girly F599 and we have a winner.

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Jun 8, 2006 9:05:06 PM

Rossi: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Home , Germany; Posts: 12682, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: Crash

Re: Test Auto Motor Sport 997 Turbo

Quote:
Crash said:
Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
Apparently only Lambo has the stones to make a real supercar anymore.

The F430 is nice, but its not a supercar. The 599 is just too conservative, the Enzo is gone and was a game to start with, and the Veyron is more like a Peich career tribute item.

Yeah, the Murc seems to be the only real exotic supercar nowadays. Not really completely unaffordable (costs less than two 997TT's), but definitely very expensive, superior performance and the looks of a missile. Compare that to the girly F599 and we have a winner.

The Murciélago is the last dinosaur out there, I hope it will not end as its stone age predecessors.

The big Ferrari nowadays is more of a opponent to the Vanquish or a CL 65 AMG if you like.

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Jun 8, 2006 9:10:09 PM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: Rossi

Re: Test Auto Motor Sport 997 Turbo

Quote:
Rossi said:
Quote:
Crash said:
Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
Apparently only Lambo has the stones to make a real supercar anymore.

The F430 is nice, but its not a supercar. The 599 is just too conservative, the Enzo is gone and was a game to start with, and the Veyron is more like a Peich career tribute item.

Yeah, the Murc seems to be the only real exotic supercar nowadays. Not really completely unaffordable (costs less than two 997TT's), but definitely very expensive, superior performance and the looks of a missile. Compare that to the girly F599 and we have a winner.

The Murciélago is the last dinosaur out there, I hope it will not end as its stone age predecessors.

The big Ferrari nowadays is more of a opponent to the Vanquish or a CL 65 AMG if you like.

An accurate assessment. I'll have a black 997TT, a black S6 and a black Murcielago please

!

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Jun 8, 2006 9:14:16 PM

WBH: Expert; Loc: CA; Posts: 1963, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 2, 2004; Reply to: Rossi

Re: Test Auto Motor Sport 997 Turbo

Quote:
Rossi said:
Quote:
Crash said:
Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
Apparently only Lambo has the stones to make a real supercar anymore.

The F430 is nice, but its not a supercar. The 599 is just too conservative, the Enzo is gone and was a game to start with, and the Veyron is more like a Peich career tribute item.

Yeah, the Murc seems to be the only real exotic supercar nowadays. Not really completely unaffordable (costs less than two 997TT's), but definitely very expensive, superior performance and the looks of a missile. Compare that to the girly F599 and we have a winner.

The Murciélago is the last dinosaur out there, I hope it will not end as its stone age predecessors.

The big Ferrari nowadays is more of a opponent to the Vanquish or a CL 65 AMG if you like.

Will be interesting to see N-ring times of 640 vs 599 vs 997TT....ole Murc was 7:50 if I recall...

Not an either/or decision anyway....I suspect guys who can afford a $350K 640 (w/instantaneous ?$70K deprec and limited daily usability) prob also will own some combo of (relatively cheap) 599/65/997TT for various other driving purposes/moods....

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Jun 9, 2006 12:17:13 AM

svtrader1: Veteran; Loc:; Posts: 821, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2003; Reply to: andrea

Re: Test Auto Motor Sport 997 Turbo

Quote:
andrea said:
997 GT3 AMS

Slalom 18m:-----71,8 kph
ISO-Wedelgasse-(?! in engl.)-151,1 kph
"Moose"-Test-----------------85 kph in/65kph out

997 Turbo AMS

Slalom 18m:-----68,3 kph
ISO-Wedelgasse-(?! in engl.)-140,9 kph
"Moose"-Test-----------------73 kph in/56kph out

Incredible set-up of the 997 GT3....

Wow!! The GT3 absolutely rocks!!! I think I see one in my future.

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Jun 9, 2006 4:42:00 AM

bostonmini: Veteran; Loc:; Posts: 924, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 31, 2003; Reply to: svtrader1

Re: Test Auto Motor Sport 997 Turbo

Old murci with SIXTY less HP was able to complete NBR in 7.43.5 at one point...

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Jun 9, 2006 5:12:31 AM

trip: Expert; Loc: Bay Area California , United States; Posts: 1691, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 11, 2006; Reply to: bostonmini

Re: Test Auto Motor Sport 997 Turbo

Where did you see that time, seems awefully fast for a car that weighs as muh as the murci does. THe fastset time I have seen is 7:50. If the time you posted is correct I'd be vry impressed.

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Jun 9, 2006 7:15:11 AM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: bostonmini

Re: Test Auto Motor Sport 997 Turbo

Quote:
bostonmini said:
Old murci with SIXTY less HP was able to complete NBR in 7.43.5 at one point...

That would only be possible with semi-slicks.

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Jun 9, 2006 7:19:08 AM

JimFlat6: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cave , United States; Posts: 8633, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 25, 2004; Reply to: Crash

Re: Test Auto Motor Sport 997 Turbo

Quote:
Crash said:
Quote:
bostonmini said:
Old murci with SIXTY less HP was able to complete NBR in 7.43.5 at one point...

That would only be possible with semi-slicks.

I am sure I could do a 7.42.9 lap on street tires, after
drinking 6 quad shot espressos and with Claudia Schiffer waiting..and willing, at the finish line.

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Jun 9, 2006 7:19:53 AM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: JimFlat6

Re: Test Auto Motor Sport 997 Turbo

Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
Quote:
Crash said:
Quote:
bostonmini said:
Old murci with SIXTY less HP was able to complete NBR in 7.43.5 at one point...

That would only be possible with semi-slicks.

I am sure I could do a 7.43.4 with street tires after
6 quad shot espressos.

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Jun 9, 2006 7:23:22 AM

JimFlat6: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cave , United States; Posts: 8633, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 25, 2004; Reply to: Crash

Re: Test Auto Motor Sport 997 Turbo

Incentive is everything

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Jun 9, 2006 7:34:31 AM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59598, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: Rossi

Re: Test Auto Motor Sport 997 Turbo

Quote:
Rossi said:
The Murciélago is the last dinosaur out there, I hope it will not end as its stone age predecessors.

The last "affordable" supersportscar in my opinion. Very sad.

The LP640 would be my dreamcar, if someone here has too much money, I surely would welcome owning one.

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Jun 9, 2006 9:33:40 AM

ALDO: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Germany, Black Forrest , Germany; Posts: 3078, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 2, 2003; Reply to: RC

Re: Test Auto Motor Sport 997 Turbo

Quote:
RC said:
Quote:
KresoF1 said:
Well... How about almost 20s faster Ring time!? Rememeber 997 Carrera S(-20mm/LSD,PCCB) Ring time by Sport Auto 8.05min. 997 Turbo time will be around 7.48min with normal Michelins and 7s-8s faster with Michelin Cup's or Pirelli Corsa's(YES! Pirelli will offer N-rated Corsa's for GT3/GT3RS and Turbo). Of course, we are talking about manual 997 Turbo with optional LSD.

Adnan just wants to "justify" his early 997 C4S Powerkit decision.

Not justifying, but I don't see in the new turbo the real kick from my car today. That the reason why I am so undetermined.

AM

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Jun 9, 2006 5:37:27 PM

GT: Senior; Loc: london , United Kingdom; Posts: 618, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 14, 2006; Reply to: RC

Re: Test Auto Motor Sport 997 Turbo

Quote:
RC said:
Quote:
GT said:
Exactly! Everybody with a tuned 996 with overboost would know that.. Overboost is until about 4.5k rpm and thus on accelerations from standstill it does not come into play since after every gearchange engine goes above the overboost threshold..
Was waiting for somebody to point that out at last!

I am afraid no 11.5s for tip with or without SC RC..

The reason why you SHOULD BE afraid is simple: the 996 Turbo never had the overboost feature, not even tuned versions. And unless you have 600+ HP on your car, you won't hit the 12 seconds barrier.
Tuned 996 Turbos in the 520-540 HP range usually achieve times around 12.5 seconds, valid only for manual and a good shifter of course.

RC, I would take the other side of this bet.. My 996 HAS overboost 1.1 to 1.3 depending on fuel and altitude and then pressure is steady at 1 bar. I will buy a 997tt at some point but I am really looking fwd to racing one on the street and see how fast it really is compared to a 540hp 850nm 996tt.. Can't wait to prove you wrong..
Also did anybody read the GT magazine report on manual vs tip?? There were some pretty graphic comments about that comparison that pretty sum up what I ve always believed about tip.. Worth a read since the reviewer had driven all previous 911 turbo models and should imo have a qualified experience on the subject..

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Jun 9, 2006 6:16:21 PM

LoranTw: Senior; Loc: Canada; Posts: 569, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 14, 2006; Reply to: GT

Re: Test Auto Motor Sport 997 Turbo

What edition of GT magazine?

thanks

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Jun 9, 2006 6:21:20 PM

Bending: Newbie; Loc: europe; Posts: 48, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 20, 2006; Reply to: GT

Re: Test Auto Motor Sport 997 Turbo

GT

what were the comments? Better to change my order to a Tip? Now its manual/LSD.

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Jun 11, 2006 8:09:46 PM

GT: Senior; Loc: london , United Kingdom; Posts: 618, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 14, 2006; Reply to: Bending

Re: Test Auto Motor Sport 997 Turbo

Quote:
Bending said:
GT

what were the comments? Better to change my order to a Tip? Now its manual/LSD.

It's the GT purely posche magazine last issue. Keep your manual.. Report said that car is amazing etc etc. Re tip they said that even while porsche claims that tip is faster, the manual felt faster. More importantly he drove one car (manual) after the other and the tip had good acceleration while in auto mode (only and mainly from standstill) but changes were still too slow for his taste and thus did not like it. Even more importantly he said that dynamic characteristics of tip are improved but while driving on twisty roads the computer gear choices let me down a few times mid-curve so the final remark was something like "let porche keep their .2 second tip advantage, manual is the way to go".
Now I don't think that this was "again" a competely inexperienced driver etc etc since they only drive porches in that magazine..

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Jun 12, 2006 7:19:51 AM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59598, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: GT

Re: Test Auto Motor Sport 997 Turbo

Quote:
GT said:
Now I don't think that this was "again" a competely inexperienced driver etc etc since they only drive porches in that magazine..

1. it makes a difference if somebody drives ONLY Porsche cars and doesn't drive home in a VW Golf.

2. most car journalists seem to be "clever" enough to make claims about Tiptronic but they apparently "forget" that there is a manual mode too with Tip.

Oh well...what do I know...I'm just the guy who had similar discussions with 996 Turbo critics (it was about the 420 HP "only" and other 993 Turbo vs. 996 Turbo related issues) and some of the critics ended up paying up to 50000 USD (hi Steve!

) because they didn't listen (and didn't "pay attention" to our subtle hints).

For maximum possible performance in the hands of 95% of the drivers out there...Tip it is. It isn't my fault if most of the people choosing manual are considering themselves part of the remaining 5%. And a REALLY last word regarding manual vs. Tip: there is nothing wrong with manual, it is fun of course. But I bet that 90% of those choosing manual would have chosen PDK instead if available. And this is actually the point where I start to doubt the logic behind some of the decisions regarding manual. But like I said before: to each his own but don't say I didn't tell you. I hate to be right (almost) all the time.

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Jun 12, 2006 9:36:43 AM

Rossi: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Home , Germany; Posts: 12682, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: RC

Re: Test Auto Motor Sport 997 Turbo

Quote:
RC said:
And a REALLY last word regarding manual vs. Tip: there is nothing wrong with manual, it is fun of course. But I bet that 90% of those choosing manual would have chosen PDK instead if available. And this is actually the point where I start to doubt the logic behind some of the decisions regarding manual.

As long as the PDK will feel like an improved auto tranny, you are surely right (as in case of the DSG at Volkswagen/Audi). But if it gives the feel of an manual tranny, just without the third pedal, I can understand people prefering the PDK instead of Tiptronic.

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Jun 12, 2006 3:58:22 PM

AUM: Veteran; Loc: Germany; Posts: 1203, Gallery; Registered on: May 2, 2006; Reply to: Rossi

Re: Test Auto Motor Sport 997 Turbo

A question: In two weeks do you think Tip enthusiasts will join the real world and admit that Tip sucks?

Yes
No

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Jun 12, 2006 4:03:44 PM

TX 911: Junior; Loc:; Posts: 143, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 20, 2003; Reply to: AUM

Re: Test Auto Motor Sport 997 Turbo

Quote:
AUM said:
A question: In two weeks do you think Tip enthusiasts will join the real world will admit that Tip sucks?

Yes
No

After spending ~140,000 USD on a Tip...I doubt it

But, you and I will know the truth, even if they don't admit it

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