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    997 Turbo - Aftermarket TUNING and some thoughts

    A lot of 997 Turbo owners, including myself, are planning to upgrade the power of their Turbo. Some of them already did that with their "older" Turbo(s), others want to go for the ultimate "kick" and performance. Very understandable.

    BUT here's a little bit of warning, just in case you haven't read similar threads/posts in the past: WAIT. Do not rush into some fast and "easy" chip tuning, shortly after the 997 Turbo is introduced to the market.

    I try to explain: the new VTG technology is a world premire on a fuel operated engine, no Tuner has experience with this new technology. Why is that so important? Easy: we're talking about extremely high exhaust temperatures for example. Or a pretty new software mapping which needs to be very refined to make sure that the VTG technology works fine. Meaning: a lot of software engineers put a lot of effort (and drank a lot of coffee ) to make sure, that the new VTG technology works fine from the start.
    Despite the bells and whistles regarding the new VTG technology, there is one thing which people should know: the VTG chargers are more sensitive to false software programming and/or bad emissions setups than the "classic" turbo chargers. Another thing people should know: due to the pressure on the car market to stay competitive and at the same time, to lower cost, turbo chargers are usually not over-dimensioned regarding reliability and stress anymore. Since the modern electronic control units allow much more precise operation of the systems, the need for higher "limits" isn't really necessary anymore.
    Bad fuel with lower octane values in combination with aftermarket tuning can also cause serious damage to the VTG chargers.

    My advice: PLEASE wait before you rush into something you may regret afterwards. I still don't have any clue how much a new VTG engine costs but be sure it won't be cheap. Porsche also introduced some "measures" to make sure that aftermarket tuning will be detected if necessary, despite the possible usage of piggyback devices or second black boxes.

    I'd say that after 8-12 months, we're going to see some light on the horizon, meaning that a couple of Tuners may actually offer something "reliable" for the 997 Turbo engine. But personally, I don't expect spectacular power increases like on the 996 Turbo, more something up to the 50 HP range if Tuners are honest. I would also be very careful about sport exhaust systems and aftermarket high flow cats in the first 12 months, they may also cause substantial damage to the VTG engine if not designed right.

    Just a friendly reminder and some thoughts from a "friend".
    Of course we all are mature people and we can do what we want. But mature people also turn their brains on before they act, so maybe you do the same and enjoy your car like it is...at least for the first year.

    Re: 997 Turbo - Aftermarket TUNING and some thoughts

    Excellent advice, RC, especially for those getting a 997TT this summer. Certainly, the existing 997TT can be "tuned up," after all, Porsche will even have one (or two) themselves (Can you spell "S" and GT2? ).

    I would also emphasize to folks to ASSUME that any mods could nullify your warranty, even something as simple as an aftermarket exhaust, so the best approach would be to ask your dealer upfront about plans. Many dealers actually endorse "minor" mods, such as exhausts, for their "regular" customers, at least here in the USA, but things might be different, at least in the first year, with the 997TT-with more testing desired/needed for compatibility/reliability purposes.

    On the other hand, one of the advantages of the VTG's will be that peak HP increases will NOT have to be tremendous to achieve excellent performance gains, given the "flat" nature of the power and torque curves with a variable impeller/vane angle turbo setup.

    I would love to hear rumours/press releases on the 997TTS and GT2 upgrades versus the base TT, partly to see how Porsche plans to tune their 997TT variants: Extra displacement? Different VTG geometries? Both? Perhaps Kryptonite exhaust coatings?

    Re: 997 Turbo - Aftermarket TUNING and some thoughts

    Quote:
    RC said:
    A lot of 997 Turbo owners, including myself, are planning to upgrade the power of their Turbo. Some of them already did that with their "older" Turbo(s), others want to go for the ultimate "kick" and performance. Very understandable.

    BUT here's a little bit of warning, just in case you haven't read similar threads/posts in the past: WAIT. Do not rush into some fast and "easy" chip tuning, shortly after the 997 Turbo is introduced to the market.

    I try to explain: the new VTG technology is a world premire on a fuel operated engine, no Tuner has experience with this new technology. Why is that so important? Easy: we're talking about extremely high exhaust temperatures for example. Or a pretty new software mapping which needs to be very refined to make sure that the VTG technology works fine. Meaning: a lot of software engineers put a lot of effort (and drank a lot of coffee ) to make sure, that the new VTG technology works fine from the start.
    Despite the bells and whistles regarding the new VTG technology, there is one thing which people should know: the VTG chargers are more sensitive to false software programming and/or bad emissions setups than the "classic" turbo chargers. Another thing people should know: due to the pressure on the car market to stay competitive and at the same time, to lower cost, turbo chargers are usually not over-dimensioned regarding reliability and stress anymore. Since the modern electronic control units allow much more precise operation of the systems, the need for higher "limits" isn't really necessary anymore.
    Bad fuel with lower octane values in combination with aftermarket tuning can also cause serious damage to the VTG chargers.

    My advice: PLEASE wait before you rush into something you may regret afterwards. I still don't have any clue how much a new VTG engine costs but be sure it won't be cheap. Porsche also introduced some "measures" to make sure that aftermarket tuning will be detected if necessary, despite the possible usage of piggyback devices or second black boxes.

    I'd say that after 8-12 months, we're going to see some light on the horizon, meaning that a couple of Tuners may actually offer something "reliable" for the 997 Turbo engine. But personally, I don't expect spectacular power increases like on the 996 Turbo, more something up to the 50 HP range if Tuners are honest. I would also be very careful about sport exhaust systems and aftermarket high flow cats in the first 12 months, they may also cause substantial damage to the VTG engine if not designed right.

    Just a friendly reminder and some thoughts from a "friend".
    Of course we all are mature people and we can do what we want. But mature people also turn their brains on before they act, so maybe you do the same and enjoy your car like it is...at least for the first year.



    I have a weird feeling that the most popular power upgrade will be GT2 turbochargers and exhaust system, coupled with a more aggressive ECU map. In short, nothing truly spectacular, but probably just as fast if not faster than the Evo Stage 4 or Ruf 550.

    Re: 997 Turbo - Aftermarket TUNING and some thoughts

    The current 997 Turbo in it's "original" state already smokes almost all tuned 996 Turbo versions with power claims up to 600 HP. There REALLY is no need (yet) to modify the car as soon as one gets it. WAITING is the best thing to do, especially because we know that a powerkit is coming and of course the rumored GT2.
    As soon as these two (or at least one) products are available, we'll get a pretty good clue what is possible regarding power and especially HOW it is possible.

    Re: 997 Turbo - Aftermarket TUNING and some thoughts

    So what you're saying RC is that I shouldn't add a NOS system?

    Re: 997 Turbo - Aftermarket TUNING and some thoughts

    Im just going to change the wheels and lower it. Shouldnt be a problem right RC?

    Re: 997 Turbo - Aftermarket TUNING and some thoughts

    RC, you've heard that Porsche is releasing a powerkit (sometime in the future) for the new turbo?

    Re: 997 Turbo - Aftermarket TUNING and some thoughts

    Quote:
    BD 997 said:
    Im just going to change the wheels and lower it. Shouldnt be a problem right RC?



    I won't lie to you: I would wait with such mods too since the PSM, the PASM and the PTM are directly "connected" together. Any change to this setup could interfere with the mapping, creating some unwanted effects. I would wait until tuners have some experience with adapting certain springs to the Turbo PASM and the whole setup. Same applies to the wheels, it they have the same offset, width, diameter and tire size, no real problem (although the original wheels are forged, not too heavy and they improve the cooling of th brake system). But if you're planning to go for 20'' wheels, different tires, etc., forget about it.
    Warning: no matter what you do, stay with the stock tires. They have been adapted to the 997 Turbo AWD and are one reason for the good performance, especially under extreme driving conditions.

    I'm afraid the 997 Turbo is an electronic "overkill" masterpiece. Any modification would only make things worse, there is almost nothing you can improve on this car. Since the setup of the networked systems is actually the "secret" behind the great performance, I wouldn't dare to destroy this perfect setup.

    So again my recommendation: WAIT for at least 12 months before you do ANY mods to your car. There isn't much to improve I'm afraid but a lot to "destroy".

    Re: 997 Turbo - Aftermarket TUNING and some thoughts

    the car site too high... its even higher than the 997 non pasm cars and 996 TT ...

    Re: 997 Turbo - Aftermarket TUNING and some thoughts

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    BD 997 said:
    Im just going to change the wheels and lower it. Shouldnt be a problem right RC?



    I won't lie to you: I would wait with such mods too since the PSM, the PASM and the PTM are directly "connected" together. Any change to this setup could interfere with the mapping, creating some unwanted effects. I would wait until tuners have some experience with adapting certain springs to the Turbo PASM and the whole setup. Same applies to the wheels, it they have the same offset, width, diameter and tire size, no real problem (although the original wheels are forged, not too heavy and they improve the cooling of th brake system). But if you're planning to go for 20'' wheels, different tires, etc., forget about it.
    Warning: no matter what you do, stay with the stock tires. They have been adapted to the 997 Turbo AWD and are one reason for the good performance, especially under extreme driving conditions.

    I'm afraid the 997 Turbo is an electronic "overkill" masterpiece. Any modification would only make things worse, there is almost nothing you can improve on this car. Since the setup of the networked systems is actually the "secret" behind the great performance, I wouldn't dare to destroy this perfect setup.

    So again my recommendation: WAIT for at least 12 months before you do ANY mods to your car. There isn't much to improve I'm afraid but a lot to "destroy".



    Well said, RC

    997TT will be world's most tech advanced sportscar....a rolling tribute to SilicVy tech ....will be interesting to see if the driving dynamics/feel live up to expecs

    Would bet on P engineers, extensive R&D work and factory svc/support network (and reliability data collection/analysis) to finesse all the networked systems better than any tuning shop, w/its inevitably weaker R&D resources and est'd reliability/performance data.....and it's prob more effective and cheaper (esp if 997TT is a "hot" car in first 12 mos of produc) to just trade-in an early 997TT in 12 mos or so for a debugged version, perhaps w/factory powerkit, etc, rather than paying for a tuner to experiment w/one's car and risk one's warranty.....

    Besides, one prob doesn't add salt&pepper or ketchup to a dinner prepped by a great chef/add Coke to a fine single-malt/take one's latest cell ph/iPod/plasma TV to Joe's Repair Shop/BestBuy for "mods" either....

    Re: 997 Turbo - Aftermarket TUNING and some thoughts

    Quote:
    Besides, one prob doesn't add salt&pepper or ketchup to a dinner prepped by a great chef/add Coke to a fine single-malt/take one's latest cell ph/iPod/plasma TV to Joe's Repair Shop/BestBuy for "mods" either....



    Exactly

    Re: 997 Turbo - Aftermarket TUNING and some thoughts

    Quote:
    zeroHero said:
    RC, you've heard that Porsche is releasing a powerkit (sometime in the future) for the new turbo?



    Yes, I think it has been discussed in an earlier thread.
    Of course our information should be considered a rumor only. Expected power increase is around 30-40 HP and the last rumor we had indicated that this powerkit is NOT retrofittable. But nobody should start now to delay the delivery of their car(s) because the powerkit will be introduced EARLIEST with the next model year, more likely later.

    Re: 997 Turbo - Aftermarket TUNING and some thoughts

    Quote:
    BD 997 said:
    the car site too high... its even higher than the 997 non pasm cars and 996 TT ...



    Wait until you see it LIVE and in person.
    I agree, it may sit a little bit too high after you get "visually" used to it but changing the height and of course the damper rate will have an impact on the whole PASM setup. I didn't say don't do it. Just WAIT a year and then I'm pretty sure that at least one or two tuners come up with something good, meaning that it won't make the original setup much worse.

    H&R was always highly recommendable regarding 911 suspension mods, I'd like to see how they were involved in PASM development (GT3/GT3RS), IF they were involved.

    Re: 997 Turbo - Aftermarket TUNING and some thoughts

    I guess your right... Thanks RC

    Re: 997 Turbo - Aftermarket TUNING and some thoughts

    H&R are involved on the GT3 development?????

    Re: 997 Turbo - Aftermarket TUNING and some thoughts

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    BD 997 said:
    the car site too high... its even higher than the 997 non pasm cars and 996 TT ...



    Wait until you see it LIVE and in person.
    I agree, it may sit a little bit too high after you get "visually" used to it but changing the height and of course the damper rate will have an impact on the whole PASM setup. I didn't say don't do it. Just WAIT a year and then I'm pretty sure that at least one or two tuners come up with something good, meaning that it won't make the original setup much worse.

    H&R was always highly recommendable regarding 911 suspension mods, I'd like to see how they were involved in PASM development (GT3/GT3RS), IF they were involved.



    Probably the best thing to do is to get the powerkit and the factory -20 mm suspension when (if? ) it is released. RC, is the rumor about the car being electronically limited to 310 km/h true?

    Re: 997 Turbo - Aftermarket TUNING and some thoughts

    Quote:
    H&R are involved on the GT3 development????



    I'd say it has been done by Bilstein ... maybe the springs are supplied by H&R ???!

    Cheers
    Tom

    Re: 997 Turbo - Aftermarket TUNING and some thoughts

    Quote:
    Rookie said:
    Quote:
    H&R are involved on the GT3 development????



    I'd say it has been done by Bilstein ... maybe the springs are supplied by H&R ???!

    Cheers
    Tom



    Let me see: the only suspension part which can be replaced on a PASM equipped car is? Right. The springs. Of course there are other minor parts and the swaybars may be considered a part of the suspension too. But the damper/spring "unit" is the part I'm talking about. And since you can replace the springs only...the OEM is H&R.

    So I don't care too much about Bilstein and their ACD2 (PASM) dampers, I care more about the springs which can be replaced easily with ones from the same OEM manufacturer: H&R. Advantage: simple logic. During development of the PASM setup, H&R of course supplies various test configurations. And of course at the end of the development, H&R knows very well which combinations worked fine in combination with the PASM system and which didn't. I'd say that this gives them a HUGE advantage over ANY possible competitor because their springs have been tested and verified by Porsche standards and not those of an aftermarket tuner who tested a few set of springs on one car and voila, the product is ready.

    Sorry for the confusion but yes, H&R was involved in GT3 development, in 997 Turbo development, in 997 development, etc. And of course they are a partner for Porsche Motorsport.

    Re: 997 Turbo - Aftermarket TUNING and some thoughts

    I have H&R lowering springs on my PASM 997 now... I love it.

    Re: 997 Turbo - Aftermarket TUNING and some thoughts

    Quote:
    Let me see: the only suspension part which can be replaced on a PASM equipped car is? Right



    I don't know for sure ... since Bilstein has a complete suspension system for the 997 PASM cars available which saves the two ride modes normal/sport ... a PSS9 variant for PASM equipped cars ... so you could change the dampers/shocks too.

    And ... what do you think is more challenging/involving ... the development of a ACD2-like system ... or a set of springs ???

    Besides that they have their standard PSS9 suspension for the 997 where you have to deactivate the PASM using the Porsche PIWIS System Tester.

    The Bilstein Damptronic system has also been employed for the GT3 ... you cannot have it with -20mm setup ... am i wrong ??? So it's all about PASM/ACD2/Damptronic ... different names for one system ... and it's made by Bilstein.

    Is there a "non pasm version" for the 997tt available from Porsche ?

    Cheers
    Tom

    Re: 997 Turbo - Aftermarket TUNING and some thoughts

    I think what RC is trying to say is that the PASM in the 997TT is not as simple as the carrera S .... the turbo's PASM is interconnected with the PCM and engine mapping etc... so it wouldnt be as simple as just changing the springs....

    Re: 997 Turbo - Aftermarket TUNING and some thoughts

    Quote:
    RC said:
    The current 997 Turbo in it's "original" state already smokes almost all tuned 996 Turbo versions with power claims up to 600 HP.



    We'll see. According to the data that I have, a 996 Turbo with GIAC Stage 2 programming has more power than the 997 Turbo from 4000 rpm to redline. So "who's faster" will depend on the starting rpm.

    Re: 997 Turbo - Aftermarket TUNING and some thoughts

    and traction

    Re: 997 Turbo - Aftermarket TUNING and some thoughts

    Quote:
    Dock (Atlanta) said:
    Quote:
    RC said:
    The current 997 Turbo in it's "original" state already smokes almost all tuned 996 Turbo versions with power claims up to 600 HP.



    We'll see. According to the data that I have, a 996 Turbo with GIAC Stage 2 programming has more power than the 997 Turbo from 4000 rpm to redline. So "who's faster" will depend on the starting rpm.



    A 996 Turbo, upgraded with the Ruf 550 package, does 0-100 km/h in 3.7 and 0-200 km/h in 10.8 seconds. Not too shabby and almost a second faster than a Tiptronic with Sport chrono.
    The 590 and 650 packages I don't even have to list .
    I'm impressed with the car, but faster than Ruf and RS Tuning it is not .

    Re: 997 Turbo - Aftermarket TUNING and some thoughts

    Quote:
    rhino said:
    and traction



    From a 2nd gear start at 4000 rpm? I don't think traction will be a factor.

    If I start a WOT pull from ~2500 rpm, my back tires will break traction when full boost rolls in. I don't loose traction during pulls starting from 3500-4000 rpm.

    The 997 Turbo in base form may be faster than my car from a rolling start at 4000 rpm, but I won't be surprised if it's not. Can't wait to find out...

    Re: 997 Turbo - Aftermarket TUNING and some thoughts

    I didn't read a single review in a german magazine (and RUF and RS-Tuning ARE german Tuners, RUF even with the status of a manufacturer) where tuned 996 Turbo with up to claimed 600 HP had an acceleration time from 0-200 kph below 11 seconds. Unless of course the Tuners ripped off the 4WD and some weight but I'd say this is a completely different story.

    We already had some "testing" going on and the 997 TT is fast, very fast. Same with the Z06, no 997 Turbo Manual can outrun it on the straight line, sorry to say that.
    But since these are only nice words and nothing more, we should wait until mid July when we hope to be able to finally do the "official" comparison.

    And in the meantime, I'm pretty sure that some car magazines worldwide will start to review (with REAL test figures) the 997 Turbo, hopefully starting in May.

    Re: 997 Turbo - Aftermarket TUNING and some thoughts

    Quote:
    RC said:
    I didn't read a single review in a german magazine (and RUF and RS-Tuning ARE german Tuners, RUF even with the status of a manufacturer) where tuned 996 Turbo with up to claimed 600 HP had an acceleration time from 0-200 kph below 11 seconds. Unless of course the Tuners ripped off the 4WD and some weight but I'd say this is a completely different story.

    We already had some "testing" going on and the 997 TT is fast, very fast. Same with the Z06, no 997 Turbo Manual can outrun it on the straight line, sorry to say that.
    But since these are only nice words and nothing more, we should wait until mid July when we hope to be able to finally do the "official" comparison.

    And in the meantime, I'm pretty sure that some car magazines worldwide will start to review (with REAL test figures) the 997 Turbo, hopefully starting in May.



    Like I said, the Turbo, measured by Autozeitung, did 100-200 km/h in 7.1 seconds, at full weight. Very impressive, if you ask me. Of course we're talking about tuned cars vs. a stock car. I'm pretty sure the powerkit and the S are gonna be just as fast, if not faster.

    Re: 997 Turbo - Aftermarket TUNING and some thoughts

    Quote:
    RC said:
    I didn't read a single review in a german magazine (and RUF and RS-Tuning ARE german Tuners, RUF even with the status of a manufacturer) where tuned 996 Turbo with up to claimed 600 HP had an acceleration time from 0-200 kph below 11 seconds. Unless of course the Tuners ripped off the 4WD and some weight but I'd say this is a completely different story.

    We already had some "testing" going on and the 997 TT is fast, very fast. Same with the Z06, no 997 Turbo Manual can outrun it on the straight line, sorry to say that.
    But since these are only nice words and nothing more, we should wait until mid July when we hope to be able to finally do the "official" comparison.

    And in the meantime, I'm pretty sure that some car magazines worldwide will start to review (with REAL test figures) the 997 Turbo, hopefully starting in May.



    I would expect that even the 996TT 540hp kit of RS Tuning is several seconds faster 0-300 than the 997TT Tip. Also, the 0-200 time should be better than for the 997TT Tip.

    You probably know that better than most other

    Re: 997 Turbo - Aftermarket TUNING and some thoughts

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    I would expect that even the 996TT 540hp kit of RS Tuning is several seconds faster 0-300 than the 997TT Tip. Also, the 0-200 time should be better than for the 997TT Tip.

    You probably know that better than most other



    I'm afraid I have to disappoint you. We already had a comparison with a tuned 996 Turbo by Sportec (claimed aprox. 600 HP) with a Z06. No chance. Now if the 997 Turbo Tip is slightly faster than the Z06, you do the math.

    BTW: Sport Auto did a Review with several tuned 996 Turbo, incl. RS-Tuning, Sportec, Techart, Lotec, etc. All cars had as far as I remember between 508 and 580 HP. None of them did 0-200 kph below 12 seconds. The "12" is the magic number, to go below it, the car has to be VERY fast.
    The Z06 succeeded (but only in one german test, in another one it did 12.2 seconds). The fastest Porsche so far is the 996 GT2 MkII, with the exception of the Carrera GT of course. The 996 Turbo S is a fast car too of course but although AMS (as far as I remember) once tested a time of 12.x seconds (I don't remember anymore), the "usual" 0-200 kph time for the 996 Turbo S was always in the 13.2-13.3 seconds range.

    Or to make it short: do you guys really think that I'm that stupid to get a 997 Turbo with Tiptronic without a reason?!

    Re: 997 Turbo - Aftermarket TUNING and some thoughts

    Quote:
    RC said:
    BTW: Sport Auto did a Review with several tuned 996 Turbo, incl. RS-Tuning, Sportec, Techart, Lotec, etc. All cars had as far as I remember between 508 and 580 HP. None of them did 0-200 kph below 12 seconds.



    I have the review in front of me right now (got it from Sportec...). Here the 0-200 km/h times:
    - Techart 530 HP / 740 Nm : 12.51s
    - Sportec 540 HP / 705 Nm : 11.38s
    - Gemballa 530 HP / 750 Nm : 12.38s
    - RS Tuning 508 HP / 740 Nm : 12.47s
    - TTP 520 HP / 750 Nm : 11.51s

    BTW, that was in January 2001!

     
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