Apr 15, 2006 5:32:26 PM
- intouch1
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Board: Porsche - 911 - 997 - Turbo
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Apr 15, 2006 6:18:57 PM
- Rafael from Spain
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Re: Tiptronic!
'networking' is a marketing term. It has SW upgrade that enhance launch by providing something similar to a launch control. Press brake pedal, full gas and release brake pedal. That's the main advantage over the claimed manual factory times that are usually not done by releasing the clutch at 6000 rpm so wait for real manual times. And also and improved shifting program.
Then is about gearing, Tip benefits of longer gearing in shorter gears where they can use more of the wide power band of the engine (not so many gearchanges) but after 3rd gear is all advantages to the shorter geared, lighter manual and even if the Tip took 0.0000000000 sec to change gear it still would loose to the manual above 3rd.
Tip car will be slower at any track with a racing driver behind the wheel on a race (more than 1 lap from standstill) for an amateur driver, the TIP will provide better times for sure as he has more time to focus on steering. For me this is not important as with the manual there is more room for improvement through learning to use the car and more rewards when you do it right.
If you don't care about the feel of a car when driving then TIP is the way. All I am saying is please check before you buy, specially the people that really, really like to drive. e.g: Get up early on a Sunday morning and enjoy your favorites streches of mountain/twisty roads.
Then is about gearing, Tip benefits of longer gearing in shorter gears where they can use more of the wide power band of the engine (not so many gearchanges) but after 3rd gear is all advantages to the shorter geared, lighter manual and even if the Tip took 0.0000000000 sec to change gear it still would loose to the manual above 3rd.
Tip car will be slower at any track with a racing driver behind the wheel on a race (more than 1 lap from standstill) for an amateur driver, the TIP will provide better times for sure as he has more time to focus on steering. For me this is not important as with the manual there is more room for improvement through learning to use the car and more rewards when you do it right.
If you don't care about the feel of a car when driving then TIP is the way. All I am saying is please check before you buy, specially the people that really, really like to drive. e.g: Get up early on a Sunday morning and enjoy your favorites streches of mountain/twisty roads.
Apr 15, 2006 6:22:32 PM
- intouch1
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Re: Tiptronic!
Quote:
intouch1 said:
we are talking hypothetically anyway.....
read my post again please. the tip gains 0.6 secs from 0-200. the manual would have to make up at least 0.7 seconds from 200-300 to be faster. i doubt it can do that. you would need a car with much more horsepower to make up for that at these speeds due to aerodynamic drag.
....and this is assuming the manual box driver has made 6 PERFECT shifts..otherwise the tip would have time to cool down the turbo's before the manual car arrives..
Re: Tiptronic!
Quote:
intouch1 said:
we are talking hypothetically anyway.....
read my post again please. the tip gains 0.6 secs from 0-200. the manual would have to make up at least 0.7 seconds from 200-300 to be faster. i doubt it can do that. you would need a car with much more horsepower to make up for that at these speeds due to aerodynamic drag.
All right. Let me present you with some quick math:
Performance according to the factory:
0-100 km/h Tip/6spd: 3.7 s/3.9 s (0.2 s difference)
0-160 km/h Tip/6spd: 7.8 s/8.4 s (0.6 s difference, 0.4 s gained)
0-200 km/h Tip/6spd: 12.2 s/12.8 s (0.6 s difference, 0.0 s gained)
As you can see, the Tip gets its 0.2 second advantage at launch, gets another four tenths from 100 to 160 km/h, due to gearing, then gains nothing on the manual from 160 km/h onwards. From 200 km/h onwards, the 6-speed is king.
No point in arguing with the facts, you know I'm right. A car with an engine with a certain horsepower and torque and five gears, stands no chance against the exact same engine in another car, boasting six gears, arguably less drivetrain loss, locked torque converter or not and less weight. It's physics and a piece of software can't do much about it.
Re: Tiptronic!
Quote:
dhayek said:Quote:
intouch1 said:
we are talking hypothetically anyway.....
read my post again please. the tip gains 0.6 secs from 0-200. the manual would have to make up at least 0.7 seconds from 200-300 to be faster. i doubt it can do that. you would need a car with much more horsepower to make up for that at these speeds due to aerodynamic drag.
....and this is assuming the manual box driver has made 6 PERFECT shifts..otherwise the tip would have time to cool down the turbo's before the manual car arrives..
Who is to say one can't make perfect shifts? Hold it up to a certain RPM, shift, press the gas pedal and off you go. It isn't exactly rocket science, when it comes to upshifting.
.
Re: Tiptronic!
Quote:
intouch1 said:
qtmbox cars will smoke the manual with lsd on the autobahn.....ah,....and that is FACT.
You are severely in denial. Porsche states that the tip will be slower above speeds of 200kph. On the Autobhn I think you might be driving a little quicker than that. So once again your WRONG.
Re: Tiptronic!
Have you guys ever looked at the technology of a Formula One car? Have you guys ever checked out how much electronics are involved? Have you checked out how many buttons there are for various interactions with the engine mapping, etc.? Why do you think they made that? Right...to achieve the best possible lap times and at the same time staying within a certain set of general rules which are valid for all teams.
Of course the new 997 Turbo Tip with all those electronic gimmicks facilitates going fast, even for less experienced drivers. BUT: for experienced drivers, this adds another shot of adrenaline in my opinion. If I would follow the logic of some people here, the most fun would be a go-kart with manual tranny and a big a.. engine. But some of us know very well that this can't be IT.
Regarding all the rumors, false and correct statements regarding performance, track performance, technology, etc.: I would have never ordered a 997 Turbo with Tip if I wouldn't know what I'm doing. I didn't take my decision based on half-bread information but on the recommendation from certain people I trust because their help always proved to be valuable. Of course it can't be excluded that I made the wrong decision and that I've been given the wrong information. But...
As soon as I have the car, I'll tell you something, many of you don't seem to know. Not that it would make a huge difference regarding the decision for or against Tiptronic but what I'll tell you, will start you thinking. I'm sorry I have to talk in riddles but I sometimes give away a little bit too much, putting me(us) a little bit in trouble.
And let me put it straight: A driver like Walter Röhrl will surely be faster in a 997 Turbo with manual on the track, no doubt about it. But how many of us are Walter Röhrl?
And getting back to speeds from 200 to 300 kph, some of you seem to forget something: how many times does it happen that you can go straight from 200 kph to top speed without having to brake at least once or twice due to traffic? And here we go again: kickdown + sport chrono + overboost = right torque and power for full performance. With a manual, you need to shift down and find the right gear in a second, most people surely loose a few seconds doing that, believe it or not. With Tip, after the kickdown, the engine torque and power AND the gear are all in the right place, absolutely perfect. Meaning: I doubt that a manual 997 Turbo could outrun a 997 Turbo Tip, unless both cars drive one next to each other and there is no traffic at all.
And finally: with the exception of a few high speed tracks, a lot of tracks are actually for speeds up to 200 kph or even less. Maybe slightly over. There is still the advantage of the NETWORKED system and the fact that you can keep both hands on the steeering wheel while driving the hello out of the car. With manual, even with LSD, YOU decide what is best...and most of the time you'll be wrong...compared to the software mapping of the Tip and the networked system. Not to speak about the fact, that you need to move your right hand from the steering wheel, you need to use the clutch, you need to move your hand back to the steering wheel and of course you have to use the stick.
Meaning: this costs time, time even the LSD can't save you.
This is a very civilized discussion and it is not about who is right or not. Like I said, I could be wrong with my assumptions and the information I have, no doubt about it. Time will tell. And I don't want to convince anybody to go for Tiptronic against his will. I also don't want to tell people that Tiptronic is THE ONLY way to go in a 997 Turbo.
I just tried to make clear that there seems to be a lot of misinformation, false assumptions, weird rumors and even slightly mixed up technical facts. I can't and don't want to get involved in a more serious and profound discussion because we may discuss based on information which is slightly different.
Tiptronic or not is not a matter of philosophy. It is a matter of performance. And especially less experienced AND very experienced drivers will profit from it. All the others in the middle may get along as well with manual.
And please accept my apology if I sounded like "Tiptronic is everything, manual is crap". This ain't what I'm saying.
I have to keep my Turbo for five long years. Taking any tiny bit of a performance advantage is a MUST for me since future cars from the competition surely won't be slowlier. You get my point, hopefully.
Of course the new 997 Turbo Tip with all those electronic gimmicks facilitates going fast, even for less experienced drivers. BUT: for experienced drivers, this adds another shot of adrenaline in my opinion. If I would follow the logic of some people here, the most fun would be a go-kart with manual tranny and a big a.. engine. But some of us know very well that this can't be IT.
Regarding all the rumors, false and correct statements regarding performance, track performance, technology, etc.: I would have never ordered a 997 Turbo with Tip if I wouldn't know what I'm doing. I didn't take my decision based on half-bread information but on the recommendation from certain people I trust because their help always proved to be valuable. Of course it can't be excluded that I made the wrong decision and that I've been given the wrong information. But...
As soon as I have the car, I'll tell you something, many of you don't seem to know. Not that it would make a huge difference regarding the decision for or against Tiptronic but what I'll tell you, will start you thinking. I'm sorry I have to talk in riddles but I sometimes give away a little bit too much, putting me(us) a little bit in trouble.
And let me put it straight: A driver like Walter Röhrl will surely be faster in a 997 Turbo with manual on the track, no doubt about it. But how many of us are Walter Röhrl?
And getting back to speeds from 200 to 300 kph, some of you seem to forget something: how many times does it happen that you can go straight from 200 kph to top speed without having to brake at least once or twice due to traffic? And here we go again: kickdown + sport chrono + overboost = right torque and power for full performance. With a manual, you need to shift down and find the right gear in a second, most people surely loose a few seconds doing that, believe it or not. With Tip, after the kickdown, the engine torque and power AND the gear are all in the right place, absolutely perfect. Meaning: I doubt that a manual 997 Turbo could outrun a 997 Turbo Tip, unless both cars drive one next to each other and there is no traffic at all.
And finally: with the exception of a few high speed tracks, a lot of tracks are actually for speeds up to 200 kph or even less. Maybe slightly over. There is still the advantage of the NETWORKED system and the fact that you can keep both hands on the steeering wheel while driving the hello out of the car. With manual, even with LSD, YOU decide what is best...and most of the time you'll be wrong...compared to the software mapping of the Tip and the networked system. Not to speak about the fact, that you need to move your right hand from the steering wheel, you need to use the clutch, you need to move your hand back to the steering wheel and of course you have to use the stick.
Meaning: this costs time, time even the LSD can't save you.
This is a very civilized discussion and it is not about who is right or not. Like I said, I could be wrong with my assumptions and the information I have, no doubt about it. Time will tell. And I don't want to convince anybody to go for Tiptronic against his will. I also don't want to tell people that Tiptronic is THE ONLY way to go in a 997 Turbo.
I just tried to make clear that there seems to be a lot of misinformation, false assumptions, weird rumors and even slightly mixed up technical facts. I can't and don't want to get involved in a more serious and profound discussion because we may discuss based on information which is slightly different.
Tiptronic or not is not a matter of philosophy. It is a matter of performance. And especially less experienced AND very experienced drivers will profit from it. All the others in the middle may get along as well with manual.
And please accept my apology if I sounded like "Tiptronic is everything, manual is crap". This ain't what I'm saying.
I have to keep my Turbo for five long years. Taking any tiny bit of a performance advantage is a MUST for me since future cars from the competition surely won't be slowlier.
You get my point, hopefully.
Re: Tiptronic!
Quote:
BD 997 said:
TIP WILL BE FASTER THAN PDK....
?
This is actually the biggest unknow for now.
I am holding off for the PDK, but if the PDK is slower than tip, then tip it is, and one year earlier for a 997TT cab
The second unknow is when will the S be out?
Just because I think the PCCB are a must have, and the S should have them as standard, much better value!
Re: Tiptronic!
Quote:
trip said:
You are severely in denial. Porsche states that the tip will be slower above speeds of 200kph. On the Autobhn I think you might be driving a little quicker than that. So once again your WRONG.
Trip, I hate it to sound arrogant but I never read ANY official statement from Porsche that the Tip is slowlier than the manual at speeds above 200 kph.
And since you're 19 years old and never owned a 911 Turbo or any other super sportscar, you may want to turn it down a little bit when you're speaking to people who actually drive and own such cars. Reading internet forums, car magazines and gathering all the other gossip available "somewhere" may be interesting, entertaining and may even educate you a little bit about some fine sportscars. But without driving one, you can't really make such statements, sorry.
Re: Tiptronic!
Quote:
RC said:Quote:
trip said:
You are severely in denial. Porsche states that the tip will be slower above speeds of 200kph. On the Autobhn I think you might be driving a little quicker than that. So once again your WRONG.
Trip, I hate it to sound arrogant but I never read ANY official statement from Porsche that the Tip is slowlier than the manual at speeds above 200 kph.
And since you're 19 years old and never owned a 911 Turbo or any other super sportscar, you may want to turn it down a little bit when you're speaking to people who actually drive and own such cars. Reading internet forums, car magazines and gathering all the other gossip available "somewhere" may be interesting, entertaining and may even educate you a little bit about some fine sportscars. But without driving one, you can't really make such statements, sorry.
RC, I read your post and there are some VERY Good points, especially about the traffic situation. However, when we look at straight-line acceleration from 200 km/h onwards, I just can't dismiss the fact that the manual has one extra gear to play with, which would inevitably make it faster in ideal conditions. In traffic, who knows? I consider myself pretty fast with a stick, but then again, the Tip may be faster. We won't know until more cars are actually driving around. I don't have to say that I'm anxiously awaiting your first impressions when you receive your beast.
Re: Tiptronic!
Quote:
Crash said:
I don't have to say that I'm anxiously awaiting your first impressions when you receive your beast.
You shouldn't listen to my words in my first review, I'm pretty sure I'll be too impressed at first. This is why I'm going to do a second review after a couple of weeks, maybe with the occasion of our planned 997 Turbo vs. Z06 vs. Gallardo SE comparison run.
And lucky enough for us all, I'm not going to be the only one who is getting one of the first cars. So maybe we see a healthy mix of opinions, even some contradictory ones.
Yes, using pure logic, the manual has to be faster at higher speeds. But like I said, I have a rumored 1-2 seconds faster figure and if this is right, this is not really a huge difference.
And another thing: I know it is hard to believe but I heard that many customers are ordering the 997 Turbo, Tip and manual, without Sport Chrono. Apparently Porsche didn't succeed in explaining the benefits of Sport Chrono. Sad.
A car WITH sport chrono will always outrun a car without sport chrono, every interested customer should be aware of that.
Re: Tiptronic!
RC, if Porsche was so adamant in pushing sales of the Sports Chrono Package, they should have raised the base price and make it standard. They made the sat nav standard, don't you think they could throw in the most important new optional performance feature in there also?
Re: Tiptronic!
We look forward to the Z06, 997TT and Gallardo report. Im sure it will be very revealing.
I already know the winners
and they are..
Luggage Space: Corvette Z06
Looks and Personality: Lamborghini Gallardo SE
Most Misunderstood: Porsche 997TT
All joking aside, I think you might be shocked at
the Lamborghini Gallardo's abilities.
I already know the winners
and they are..Luggage Space: Corvette Z06
Looks and Personality: Lamborghini Gallardo SE
Most Misunderstood: Porsche 997TT
All joking aside, I think you might be shocked at
the Lamborghini Gallardo's abilities.
Re: Tiptronic!
I always liked the Gallardo. Since we're not comparing these cars on the track because it wouldn't make much sense with differently skilled drivers, we're doing only a few mid/high speed straight line runs and hopefully a 0-100/160 kph run from standstill if we're able to find a deserted airport or maybe a short track somewhere.
Since the owners of the cars will be driving them themselves, there will be NO bias whatever towards a car. This will be probably the most honest and "unveilling" test available on the net. And I hope I won't be crying afterwards...
Since we're not comparing these cars on the track because it wouldn't make much sense with differently skilled drivers, we're doing only a few mid/high speed straight line runs and hopefully a 0-100/160 kph run from standstill if we're able to find a deserted airport or maybe a short track somewhere.Since the owners of the cars will be driving them themselves, there will be NO bias whatever towards a car. This will be probably the most honest and "unveilling" test available on the net. And I hope I won't be crying afterwards...
Apr 15, 2006 11:53:57 PM
- SoCal Alan
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- Loc: Orange County , United States
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- Registered on: Mar 6, 2004
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Reply to:
RC
Re: Tiptronic!
Quote:
RC said:
I always liked the Gallardo.
Since the owners of the cars will be driving them themselves, there will be NO bias whatever towards a car. This will be probably the most honest and "unveilling" test available on the net. And I hope I won't be crying afterwards...
Do you think you can add a 997TT manual with your test? You might be the only one to do such a test. Or at least the first one.
Apr 16, 2006 12:03:50 AM
-
RC
- Rennteam Administrator
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- Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany
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- Reply to: SoCal Alan
Re: Tiptronic!
Quote:
SoCal Alan said:
Do you think you can add a 997TT manual with your test? You might be the only one to do such a test. Or at least the first one.
Yes, I think so. Our user "conner" also gets one of the first cars in Germany, he may join us, we've already had contact. And he has a manual since ALL launch cars in Germany are manual. Except one.
Re: Tiptronic!
Quote:
RC said:
And getting back to speeds from 200 to 300 kph, some of you seem to forget something: how many times does it happen that you can go straight from 200 kph to top speed without having to brake at least once or twice due to traffic?
My concern is that the Tip will be rather unpleasant to drive on the AB. 5 gears are simply not enough (even with a lot of torque). The car will feel like a diesel. No kidding: you press the throttle at speeds above 200kph and there will be no down-shift (given the limitations of the gearing)... As I said, like a diesel.
In an ideal world kick-down at around 200kph should be followed by three quick down-shifts (from 7th gear to 4th), the car rapidly accelerating through the gears afterwards. I will wait for PDK or go to the competitors with F1/SMG technology. I cannot believe that Tip would ever satisfy me
Re: Tiptronic!
We have to wait and see how good of a drive feel the "new" Tiptronic delivers. The Tiptronic in my wife's Boxster S works great in combination with Sport Chrono. You can actually choose the shifting points with your throttle foot.
What isn't working too well is actually upshifting at lower rev figures. With Sport Chrono activated, after I do a fast turn at almost full throttle, the Tiptronic keeps the low gear for at least another one minute, making it a little bit annoying. But it is better than early upshifts.
What isn't working too well is actually upshifting at lower rev figures. With Sport Chrono activated, after I do a fast turn at almost full throttle, the Tiptronic keeps the low gear for at least another one minute, making it a little bit annoying. But it is better than early upshifts.
Re: Tiptronic!
Quote:
RC said:Quote:
Crash said:
And another thing: I know it is hard to believe but I heard that many customers are ordering the 997 Turbo, Tip and manual, without Sport Chrono. Apparently Porsche didn't succeed in explaining the benefits of Sport Chrono. Sad.
Those unfortunate soles will be sadly disappointed at resale time AND imo are missing out on one of the tt's best features. Without the sport chrono option I may have cancelled my order.
Re: Tiptronic!
Quote:
RC said:Quote:
trip said:
You are severely in denial. Porsche states that the tip will be slower above speeds of 200kph. On the Autobhn I think you might be driving a little quicker than that. So once again your WRONG.
Trip, I hate it to sound arrogant but I never read ANY official statement from Porsche that the Tip is slowlier than the manual at speeds above 200 kph.
And since you're 19 years old and never owned a 911 Turbo or any other super sportscar, you may want to turn it down a little bit when you're speaking to people who actually drive and own such cars. Reading internet forums, car magazines and gathering all the other gossip available "somewhere" may be interesting, entertaining and may even educate you a little bit about some fine sportscars. But without driving one, you can't really make such statements, sorry.
Although I agree that I am not the one actually buying this car, I have driven cars similar to it. I also have been litterally obsesed with sportscars since I was about ten. Not only do i read and absorb magazine, internet, and books on cars, I have first hand experience driving some fine sports from Porsche, BMW, and Audi. Without trying to sound like a spoiled brat, my father has owned both a 996 turbo and a 997 carrera s, both 6 speed MANUAL, both of which I have driven extensively. I also have driven countless boxter loaner cars including a tiptronic as well as tiptronic BMW 5 series and 7 series. I realize that the Turbo tip is way better than the one found on the boxter or BMWs, but the fact that I derived absolutely no joy from the tip boxter has me pretty pesimistic about it. Although I don't own a porsche myself, I am a certified porschefile and hopefully a future owner. I do own an A4 with a stick and absolutely love it. Although not a true sportscar, it does have aftermarket suspension and is great fun to drive. I especially love driving up and down skyline and 84 where it gets really twisty(Those of you living near woodside ca know what im talking about) heel toeing into corners and cruising up the 280 freeway. There is also never a shortage or exoctic cars and porsches including many cgts and countless turbos with owners who love to stop and chat about their toys. Considering all of this I believe that I do posess the knowledge to make such statements and have a valid opinion and perspective when it comes to these types of discussions.
Re: Tiptronic!
Quote:
intouch1 said:
bmw does not have tiptronic. they have smg. its sequential where tiptronic is an automatic. andpls dont forget. slushbox is out qtmbox is 'in'....
I am not sure where you got that information but bmw does in fact have tiptronic automatic transmisions. We own a BMW 540i sport with tiptronic and have owned in the past a 740i sport with tiptronic. Both great cars and very powerful however the 540 would be so much better with a stick.
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