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    Re: Further clarification on -20mm sports suspension....

    Hope this helps. I really have tried to describe everything I can. Hope it sheds some more light on this for you and anyone else in this particular suspension dilemma





    Thanks easy.

    I think I'm convinced, -20mm & lsd for me too !!

    I think the reason most of UK dealers don't promote it, is because in normal pasm cars, they have the option of using normal mode, then if someone particularly
    asks for a different experience in the ride then they can switch to sport, and give them a harder ride, which will satisfy most people, at least for a test drive anyway.

    But my car will be for me to drive when I feel like a blast at weekend and the odd track day, as well as some commuting, I would much prefer a car that handled well than to experience a comforting ride all the time.

    Just on a seperate note, I read in a recent copy of EVO mag that the 997S they where testing on top speed runs I think, with SS was a little unruly at speed, over 120mph, and took a firm grip to control the steering ? Anyone ant experience ?

    I think the SS is the way to go after reading various posts and magazine articles, who have all raved about it.
    Like you Easy, I was a little concerned that it may be a little too harsh, but after your recent posts to the contrary, it sounds good to me !

    Thanks again

    Re: Further clarification on -20mm sports suspension....

    Quote:
    Peely said:
    Just on a seperate note, I read in a recent copy of EVO mag that the 997S they where testing on top speed runs I think, with SS was a little unruly at speed, over 120mph, and took a firm grip to control the steering ? Anyone ant experience ?


    This has been reported in a few other car mags. The French edition of Flat 6 (or was it Sport Auto?) also advised against -20mm.

    Re: Further clarification on -20mm sports suspension....

    [This has been reported in a few other car mags. The French edition of Flat 6 (or was it Sport Auto?) also advised against -20mm.



    Oh dear ! ..................here we go again !!

    Re: Further clarification on -20mm sports suspension....

    Peely,

    Carlos from Spain has stated that he has not experienced this on his 997S (which has -20mm). I trust Carlos not this magazine. You clearly still have some doubts so maybe you should try -20mm. I suggest you either contact someone with it or you should fly to a dealer abroad who has a demo car with -20mm. (You won't find a UK dealer with -20mm).

    All the best

    Re: Further clarification on -20mm sports suspension....

    Quote:
    The Groom said:
    Quote:
    Peely said:
    Just on a seperate note, I read in a recent copy of EVO mag that the 997S they where testing on top speed runs I think, with SS was a little unruly at speed, over 120mph, and took a firm grip to control the steering ? Anyone ant experience ?


    This has been reported in a few other car mags. The French edition of Flat 6 (or was it Sport Auto?) also advised against -20mm.



    Read that too.
    Don't trust Flat 6 Mr Joly much.
    As for EVO, it could be true, suspensions are on the stiff side and the car will be upset on bumps at high speeds.
    Having said that, I have taken my car to 289 kmh on French motorway and no problem whatsoever, supremely stable.

    Re: Further clarification on -20mm sports suspension....

    I took mine to 306kmh and it was rock solid so no idea what Evo was talking about.

    Re: Further clarification on -20mm sports suspension....

    Quote:
    JJBlade said:
    I took mine to 306kmh and it was rock solid so no idea what Evo was talking about.



    Could be that it is just over bumps at speed, but hey, who's gonna be doing over 140mph over bumps ??




    or you should fly to a dealer abroad who has a demo car with -20mm. (You won't find a UK dealer with -20mm).


    You're kidding.............right ?!!
    Life's too short.

    Re: Further clarification on -20mm sports suspension....

    No Peely, I wasn't joking.

    Nowadays you can fly to any city in Europe for less than Pounds50 return on airlines like Ryanair or German Wings. No need to stay the night etc, just arrange a test drive for 1-2 hours with a foreign dealer with a -20mm car. Better still, a dealer will meet you at the airport and drop you back if he thinks you might order a car from him. You'll get all the insight you need from actually driving the car.

    As far as I'm concerned, spending Pounds50 on a cheap flight is nothing compared to making a mistake involving a Pounds75,000 car. If I hadn't been able to ride in a -20mm last Sunday, I would have done this.

    If I can fly to Frankfurt for the day (just to attend the IAA Frankfurt motor show last Sept 2005) then surely this is no issue.

    Re: Further clarification on -20mm sports suspension....

    What can we do in the U.S. with a PASM 997S to try to imulate the 20mm suspension???

    Re: Further clarification on -20mm sports suspension....

    Nothing, I am affraid! What is PCNA explanation about not offering -20mm/LSD on USA & Canadian market??
    Only thing that may happend is LSD as option for PASM cars... But, this rumor is NOT confirmed!

    Re: Further clarification on -20mm sports suspension....

    I think they don't offer it because of the bumper hight during crash testing???

    Re: Further clarification on -20mm sports suspension....

    Quote:
    rhino said:
    What can we do in the U.S. with a PASM 997S to try to imulate the 20mm suspension???


    Only one thing - buy a GT3

    Re: Further clarification on -20mm sports suspension....

    Alex (UK),

    You're right. The car which EVO tested against the Aston Martin V8 was a 997S with -20mm and PCCBs. I think it was registration number RX54WJK. It is part of the Porsche GB press fleet.

    A -20mm 997S is usually used on TV shows and magazine reviews when Porsche want to outgun another car. In fact, when Top Gear did a contest in the Isle of Man between the BMW M6 vs Aston Martin V8 Vantage vs 997S, they used a 997S with -20mm and PCCBs. It absolutely blew the competition away. If I recall correctly, the M6 and the AMV8 were virtually indistinguishable on about 1 min 35 secs over the chosen route whereas the 997S did it in a staggering 1 min 29 secs. 6 seconds over such a short route was a staggering difference.

    Overall, I believe one shouldn't doubt Porsche. They have been making the 911 for 43 years. They have had enough time to get the suspension just right. For my money, -20mm is worth its weight in gold.

    Re: Further clarification on -20mm sports suspension....

    Quote:
    easy_rider911 said:
    Peely,

    Carlos from Spain has stated that he has not experienced this on his 997S (which has -20mm). I trust Carlos not this magazine. You clearly still have some doubts so maybe you should try -20mm. I suggest you either contact someone with it or you should fly to a dealer abroad who has a demo car with -20mm. (You won't find a UK dealer with -20mm).

    All the best



    I don't know how mamny miles they have done over 120mph, but I do 120mph every week! and same with my previous 996C4, and the M3 before that, and also done it with other sportcars. Its rock solid over 120mph, even more so that my previous 996C4 with AWD, aerokit and M030 sport suspensions. The steering is beautifully direct and with sensational feedback, allowing you be in control of car over every inch of tarmac. If you are used to a sedan, it may seem nervous in comparison, but thats how a sportcar's steering is supposed to be, its not that its nervous, its that the sedan is "numb" at high speed giving you the false sensation of stability. But for me, a numb steering gets me nervous and doesn't allow me to be fully and directly aware of what the car is doing.

    At over 120mph is were the 997-20mm starts to shine and achieves a greater advantage over similarly powered cars, wereas at slower speeds the diffrence is reduced. If you want me to leave behind a BMW///M, Lancer EVO, AMG, Aston, hot-hatchback, etc. just give me some open highway and start to hit those bends at tripple mph digits.

    Re: Further clarification on -20mm sports suspension....

    Having opted for the PASM, I am glad I did. Even without having driven -20mm I still would choose PASM again.

    Why?

    I'm a sucker for technology and think the benefits far outweigh -20mm (and as a side point, although Porsche prices them the same, I'm fairly sure the PASM system is a damned site more epensive to produce than the -20mm and LSD. Thus better value!)

    PASM isn't just two suspension settings as many make out. It has two 'modes'. But within each mode are many variations.

    It is continually adjusting damping. And even when in 'Normal' mode may adjust itself to a sportier setting.

    If in 'sport' mode the surface quality degrades, it adjusts itself to a softer setup. Therefore PASM 'Sport' mode, doesnt have one level of harshness, it has many!

    Basically, it adapts dependant on your driving in either mode. And has many damping settings, not just two. Kind of cool I think.

    On poor road surfaces PASM may actually prove to be the quicker option.

    Oh yes.. And the added safety features.. I quote ..

    "Equipped with five specially developed software modules, PASM ensures excellent performance and raises driving safety in extreme situations to an even higher standard than before. This, in turn, allows the optimum damper setting for all driving conditions.

    Lane change module: In response to fast movements of the steering wheel, for example in a sudden manoeuvre, the system instantaneously increases damper forces on both axles. This reduces side sway or any process of the body starting to "rock" and makes the car much easier to handle above all in an extreme situation.

    Vertical control module: In the normal program damper forces are increased whenever vertical movement of the car's body exceeds a certain threshold, for example when driving over bumps on the road. This reliably prevents any risk of the body starting to "rock" and develop particular momentum. In the sports program, by contrast, the system slightly reduces the damping effect in the interest of better wheel contact on the road in response to greater body motion. This prevents the risk of the car "jumping" or moving around, at the same time ensuring a significant improvement of motoring comfort.

    Lateral acceleration module: In the normal program the damping effect is increased to a varying, different extent at the inside and the outside in a bend, as a function of road speed and lateral acceleration. This again prevents the body of the car from "rocking up" and significantly improves driving precision.

    Brake module: As soon as the driver starts to apply the brakes, PASM switches to a harder damping effect in order to reduce body dive. This ensures faster transmission of brake forces to the road for optimum brake power. Then, during the brake application process, the system switches over to a softer control line after a certain period, applying different forces on the front and rear axle. Particularly on bumpy roads, this ensures better surface contact and serves to reduce stopping distances.

    Load change module: When accelerating all-out, with the driver taking his foot off the accelerator, and in shifting gears, the damper control maps are switched and modified individually for the front and rear axles. In the normal mode the dampers are briefly switched to a harder damping response under such driving conditions, preventing the car from developing too much squat. In the sports mode the system, whenever required, switches briefly to a softer damper response in order to improve traction when accelerating, for example on bumpy surfaces. "

    -------

    Which in the end is why I chose it. I felt that I would be sacrificing far too much if I dropped PASM.

    Cheers

    ...Add

    Re: Further clarification on -20mm sports suspension....

    Fancy technology like that (while impressive in its own right) is only as good as the results it produces. If the old-fashioned -20mm with LSD (how much do you think a ZF clutch LSD costs to produce, btw? Hint: Costs around $1,800 in the aftermarker) drives better, then who cares?

    There is also going to be a SIGNIFICANT cost benefit to the -20mm owner when it's time to replace the shocks, I would think...

    Re: Further clarification on -20mm sports suspension....

    Madadd, how can you say you preffer PASM without having tried the -20mm? based on what a guy in marketing wrote up?

    I'm afraid the realword can be a different world than the brochures, and even varies to each person, so just one word of advice, from someone who has tried both, don't try the -20mm now just in case

    Would be interesting to have a poll of those that have actually tried both and which they liked best not that it mattered, since the best comes down to what each owner preffers (after having tried both), but there is no absolute best, but interesting to see what the mayority would say.

    Re: Further clarification on -20mm sports suspension....

    Would lowering the pasm car with some H&R springs give you that stability @120mph+???

    Re: Further clarification on -20mm sports suspension....

    Quote:
    rhino said:
    Would lowering the pasm car with some H&R springs give you that stability @120mph+???


    It would help, but the stability gained from the LSD would not be available (more helpful in turns and braking than cruising straight at 120mph though). Aerokit would make a bigger difference, imho...

    Re: Further clarification on -20mm sports suspension....

    Thanks grant. I am getting a cab, and there are not that many optins for the Aero kits...maybe a front defuser???

    Re: Further clarification on -20mm sports suspension....

    Quote:
    Alex (UK) said:
    ... if you have the Sports Suspension then do you still have the 'Sports Chrono Plus' option? If so then what does pressing the sports button actually do in this case? Just water down the traction control and increase throttle response?!



    You still have this fancy stopwatch on your dashboard, and it won't move away when you press the sport button.

    I wasn't to keen about the Chrono option since I hate the looks of this stopwatch on the 997 dashboard and don't need an adaption of throttle response. Once I am calibrated to a car's throttle response I don't need any silly adaption - what does make a difference are the modified settings for the automatic gearbox, if you order that one.

    The -20mm option is NOT instable at higher speeds - at least not on the cars I drove and that was done up to topspeed - I could only assume that the -20mm equipped cars are more prone to suspension misalignments which some other high-performance cars can suffer from, e.g. the 996 GT3! It offers an acceptable ride for a sportscar, one you even could live with everyday. It seems clear to me that once you order that car with automatic you might even consider a more comfortable suspension system. Why salesmen spoil the performance of this suspension is unclear to me - maybe they try to offer a USP. Anyways, so many car manufacturers are about to or did already launch active suspensions on their cars.
    I can only imagine that my above given assumption about suspension precision might cause them to talk you out of that option - since they would have to cover it under warranty in the beginning...

    Re: Further clarification on -20mm sports suspension....

    I suppose it all depends on how much yuou are going to rely on the car getting you out of a dangerous situation, and how well you can cope with that, with whatever experience (lack of) you have.
    I think I have enough experience of driving/racing fast cars that I would trust both myself and the SS set up to give me enough feed back in order to tell me what the car was experiencing, and therefore adjust the input.

    Pasm is there for a reason for everyone to experience the joy/speed of Porsche ownership.

    If you want something a little more hardcore, then so be it !!

    Re: Further clarification on -20mm sports suspension....

    Rhino - Supposedly Bilstein is working on a PASM-compatible PSS9 kit for the 997s. Supposedly it will be available in the US later this year. So this allows for adjustable ride height - of course it doesn't address the LSD.

    Re: Further clarification on -20mm sports suspension....

    Quote:
    mb996 said:
    Rhino - Supposedly Bilstein is working on a PASM-compatible PSS9 kit for the 997s. Supposedly it will be available in the US later this year. So this allows for adjustable ride height - of course it doesn't address the LSD.


    When you say it will be PASM-compatible, does that mean that it will still be electonically adjustable or just that the warning lights won't be triggered?

    Re: Further clarification on -20mm sports suspension....

    My understanding is that it will be electronically adjustable, but I am not certain. The person I spoke to in Bilstein US did not have all the details. I am only speculating, but this may be a derivative of the new GT3 suspension.

    Re: Further clarification on -20mm sports suspension....

    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    Easy, I agree with you that -20mm/LSD is the way to go for 997/997S coupe with manual gearbox! It is truly sporty setup for enthusiastic driver.
    It is not too stiff, specially when you compare it to PASM Sport mode...
    But, if some of you will drive your 997 around town a lot(say 80% of time) or simply do want little bit more comfort-then choose PASM. IMO, -20mm/LSD is the best suspension for 997/997S coupe. But, what if Porsche is offering only LSD as a option on PASM cars(like 997 Turbo manual!)? What then!? Personally, I think that more then 90% of people would go for that one!
    Also, Porsche is very keen on PASM! Look at new 997 Turbo and GT3, both of them have better version of PASM suspension.
    So, do not be suprised if Porsche will offer soon LSD as option for manual version of PASM equiped 997/997S...
    Also since -20mm/LSD is not available in USA I belive that all USA & Canadian buyers of 997/997S with manual gearbox would choose LSD(if available as option!), IMO.



    i agree with you. i hope and expect porsche to provide an lsd option for the Pasm models soon, otherwise i believe i found a way to retrofit an aftermarket LSD to my manual gearboxed 997s. it is not for sure jet but hopefully after may i will keep you informed on the progress of my plans

     
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