Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: Thanks Fanch - I tried -20mm sports suspension yesterday! - Page1

Apr 10, 2006 9:45:06 AM

easy_rider911: Rennteam VIP; Loc: London , United Kingdom; Posts: 22190, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 8, 2004

Thanks Fanch - I tried -20mm sports suspension yesterday!

Guys,

I met up with Fanch in London yesterday. He kindly took me for a ride in his 997S with -20mm sports suspension. It feels FABULOUS!

Obviously my reaction is just based on the ride quality as a passenger and not as a driver. However, riding around central London with all the potholes, manhole covers, uneven roads with countless repairs etc....the ride quality and comfort was awesome...I found it perfectly comfortable. Going over bumps etc, you feel a nice firm contact with the imperfection in the road but really, it felt absolutely fine.

What makes me REALLY angry is that UK dealers put buyers off choosing -20mm when it is an absolutely amazing suspension set up.

All I can say is that if you are choosing a 997, IMHO you simply have to choose this set up provided that it's available in your country. IMO it is definitely perceivable that in town use, -20mm sports suspension is not as firm/harsh as PASM sport mode. It's just perfect.

By the way, the power, torque and sound of the X51 Powerkit was simply awesome! The stopping power of the PCCBs had to be experienced to be believed....I need to win the lottery QUICKLY! LOL

The only thing is Fanch's car is in slate grey...I have chosen arctic silver and it's so so tempting to switch to slate grey. My goodness is that colour gorgeous in real life! So rich looking and dark. Very sophisticated colour IMO. I would keep the cocoa interior I've chosen. I wonder if slate grey and cocoa interior blend well? Any views anyone??

But I am SO SO glad I ordered P17 -20mm sports suspension for my 997S. Can't wait till I collect it in Stuttgart in September 2006!

Thanks Fanch so much for helping me feel sure about my decision!

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Apr 10, 2006 10:21:33 AM

Futch: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: EU , United Kingdom; Posts: 4759, Gallery; Registered on: May 14, 2002; Reply to: easy_rider911

Re: Thanks Fanch - I tried -20mm sports suspension yesterday!

You're welcome Easy!
Always a pleasure meeting fellow Rennteamers! Thanks RC for that, without you, we would all be lost children!
I am mostly very happy I helped you make up your mind about sport suspension.
Like I was telling you yesterday, it's not comfortable like a Merc SL would be but it's really fine and you really do feel connected to the road with very reasonnable suspension travel.
Still haven't tried PASM though, I ought to.
It was a shame about the traffic but the main point was city driving comfort and we got that done.
Slate grey is indeed superb and fantastic in the sunlight!
I don't know about the combo with Cocoa though, I've never seen pics, could be nice.
It's not a combo that springs to my mind but should be interesting.
See you again soon!

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Apr 10, 2006 10:52:03 AM

Peely: Junior; Loc: Lancs UK; Posts: 52, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 1, 2006; Reply to: Futch

Re: Thanks Fanch - I tried -20mm sports suspension yesterday!

Mmmmm, now you've got me thinking again !

I've still got this dilemma to overcome, PASM or -20mm Sports ?

Tried the PASM car but not the S/S car.

Heard a lot of people's advice, and inevitably they recommend whatever they have chosen as the best set up.

Another thought, does the PASM car actually lower when in the Sports set up, or just stiffen the shocks ?
I like the way the -20mm car sits !

................think I need to try a -20mm car............anyone in the N/W UK ?

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Apr 10, 2006 11:03:19 AM

KresoF1: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Croatia , Croatia; Posts: 7856, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 3, 2005; Reply to: Peely

Re: Thanks Fanch - I tried -20mm sports suspension yesterday!

PASM car just as you said "stiffen the shocks". Hight for PASM car is 1300mm and for -20mm/LSD car 1290mm.
Porsche is refering -20mm to standard 997 Carrera(non S) suspension. Standard 997 hight is 1310mm.
You really need to try -20mm/LSD! Benefites of LSD are not small at all, specially in Sport mode and on twisty road. Also PSM is little bit different then those on PASM car...

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Apr 10, 2006 11:40:26 AM

easy_rider911: Rennteam VIP; Loc: London , United Kingdom; Posts: 22190, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 8, 2004; Reply to: KresoF1

Re: Thanks Fanch - I tried -20mm sports suspension yesterday!

Peely,

-20mm is 10mm lower than PASM and 20mm lower than a standard 997 Carrera.

Just to clarify KresoF1's point, when he says 'specially in sport mode', I think he means sport mode either in sport chrono package plus or in PSM (Porsche Stability Management) but obviously not PASM (active suspension) sport mode because obviously you don't get the LSD with PASM.

For me, the choice is now a 'no-brainer'. IMO -20mm rocks!

Until yesterday, I was 'sure' in theory it was correct. Now I've experienced it, I KNOW it is the right choice for me!

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Apr 10, 2006 11:41:50 AM

easy_rider911: Rennteam VIP; Loc: London , United Kingdom; Posts: 22190, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 8, 2004; Reply to: easy_rider911

Re: Thanks Fanch - I tried -20mm sports suspension yesterday!

Peely, just to clarify - switching between normal mode and sports mode in PASM doesn't raise/lower the car at all. A PASM car is permanently 10mm lower than a standard 997 Carrera and permanently 10mm higher than a -20mm car.

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Apr 10, 2006 4:02:53 PM

Peely: Junior; Loc: Lancs UK; Posts: 52, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 1, 2006; Reply to: easy_rider911

Re: Thanks Fanch - I tried -20mm sports suspension yesterday!

Thanks for the explanation easy. I take it you've obviously tried the pasm car as well before you first ordered your car.

So just exactly what was the difference in the two ?

Better handling, more responsive steering, better exiting corners with the lsd, etc, etc ?

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Apr 10, 2006 5:09:33 PM

easy_rider911: Rennteam VIP; Loc: London , United Kingdom; Posts: 22190, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 8, 2004; Reply to: Peely

Re: Thanks Fanch - I tried -20mm sports suspension yesterday!

Peely, can I suggest you read my test drive report:

http://www.rennteam.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=997&Number=187919&fpart=&PHPSESSID=

Scroll down a bit and it's in there, you can't miss it.

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Apr 10, 2006 5:48:03 PM

Peely: Junior; Loc: Lancs UK; Posts: 52, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 1, 2006; Reply to: easy_rider911

Re: Thanks Fanch - I tried -20mm sports suspension yesterday!

Quote:
easy_rider911 said:
Peely, can I suggest you read my test drive report:

http://www.rennteam.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=997&Number=187919&fpart=&PHPSESSID=

Scroll down a bit and it's in there, you can't miss it.

Thanks, but I have read your previous report/test drive a few weeks ago, but just wondered what you noticed different with the -20mm car,in the ride etc. I know you didn't get to drive this one though.

Suppose I'm really looking for smomeone who has driven both to compare!

Anyone ?

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Apr 10, 2006 9:36:58 PM

AshD: Junior; Loc:; Posts: 53, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 18, 2004; Reply to: easy_rider911

Re: Thanks Fanch - I tried -20mm sports suspension yesterday!

Quote:
easy_rider911 said:
Peely,

-20mm is 10mm lower than PASM and 20mm lower than a standard 997 Carrera.

Just to clarify KresoF1's point, when he says 'specially in sport mode', I think he means sport mode either in sport chrono package plus or in PSM (Porsche Stability Management) but obviously not PASM (active suspension) sport mode because obviously you don't get the LSD with PASM.

For me, the choice is now a 'no-brainer'. IMO -20mm rocks!

Until yesterday, I was 'sure' in theory it was correct. Now I've experienced it, I KNOW it is the right choice for me!

Easy_rider....you've just made me a very, very happy man. Still waiting for my C2S with -20mm to arrive. Apparently the factory gives birth this Thursday. Then just the wait to go pick up from OPC East London....had a feeling that's where you'd ordered yours through?

Thanks again, was pretty certain i'd gone the right route, but haven't been in one either.

Ash

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Apr 10, 2006 9:46:50 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21152, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: easy_rider911

Re: Thanks Fanch - I tried -20mm sports suspension yesterday

easy-_rider,
I'm glad you tried out the -20mm BEFORE you bought a PASM car!

I was the first one at my hole reagion to order the -20mm so I could not have tried one before purchase but for me confort is not an issue so I had no doubts. I just feel sorry for those that were put off from buying a -20mm on the count of scary stories by the dealers about confort

the -20mm really takes advantage of the potential of the 997, especially fun factor. They should have more -20mm demos cars and let the people decide which they like best.

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Apr 10, 2006 9:47:32 PM

MHakkinen: Pilot; Loc: SoCal-freeway shooting capital; Posts: 381, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 15, 2005; Reply to: AshD

Re: Thanks Fanch - I tried -20mm sports suspension yesterday!

Anyone know if -20mm is avail as a retrofit through the dealers yet? I understand this is possible for the 996 models. I don't have PASM and would be interested in this.

Something tells me it would be a better solution than just the lowering springs I have now.

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Apr 10, 2006 11:13:20 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21152, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: MHakkinen

Re: Thanks Fanch - I tried -20mm sports suspension yesterday

I believe you can retrofit on a non-PASM car the shocks and springs of the -20mm suspension uses, but you cannot retrofit the rear LSD part of the -20mm suspension.

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Apr 11, 2006 8:21:05 AM

easy_rider911: Rennteam VIP; Loc: London , United Kingdom; Posts: 22190, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 8, 2004; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: Thanks Fanch - I tried -20mm sports suspension yesterday

Thanks Carlos. Once I finalise my colour combo I just have to sit tight and wait

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Apr 11, 2006 8:37:02 AM

crayphile: Rennteam Pro; Loc: England , United Kingdom; Posts: 2861, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 16, 2004; Reply to: easy_rider911

Re: Thanks Fanch - I tried -20mm sports suspension yesterday

Quote:
easy_rider911 said:
Thanks Carlos. Once I finalise my colour combo I just have to sit tight and wait

Stick with the cocoa - it makes for a interesting combination amongst a sea of Artic/ Black leather out there.

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Apr 11, 2006 11:30:03 AM

Gnil: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: VD, Switzerland , Switzerland; Posts: 14173, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 11, 2005; Reply to: crayphile

Re: Thanks Fanch - I tried -20mm sports suspension yesterday

Glad you enjoyed it! It is always difficult to know how it realy feels just by reading the posts. Good you had a chance to try Fanch s car!

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Apr 11, 2006 5:29:37 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12586, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: Thanks Fanch - I tried -20mm sports suspension yesterday

Quote:
Carlos from Spain said:
I believe you can retrofit on a non-PASM car the shocks and springs of the -20mm suspension uses, but you cannot retrofit the rear LSD part of the -20mm suspension.

This might not be so easy. First you need to consider that the PASM sensors will be disconnected, so there may be warning lights on the dash with the removal of the PASM shocks. Also, the -20mm suspension is tuned to work with the LSD, so just changing the suspension without adding the LSD may result in a unstable balance (more oversteer), since LSD makes a car understeer more. I think the -20mm suspension was tuned with the LSD as a system to provide neutral balance and not adding the LSD will destroy that balance...

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Apr 11, 2006 5:44:04 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21152, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: Grant

Re: Thanks Fanch - I tried -20mm sports suspension yesterday

I was only refering to the non-PASM cars. If memory serves me right, Champion was installing them

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Apr 11, 2006 6:48:06 PM

MHakkinen: Pilot; Loc: SoCal-freeway shooting capital; Posts: 381, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 15, 2005; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: Thanks Fanch - I tried -20mm sports suspension yesterday

Thanks Carlos

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Apr 11, 2006 7:36:48 PM

igzaklee: Senior; Loc: BH , United States; Posts: 797, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 16, 2003; Reply to: Futch

Re: Thanks Fanch - I tried -20mm sports suspension yesterday!

Quote:
Fanch said:
Always a pleasure meeting fellow Rennteamers! Thanks RC for that, without you, we would all be lost children!

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Apr 11, 2006 10:05:47 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12586, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: Thanks Fanch - I tried -20mm sports suspension yesterday

Quote:
Carlos from Spain said:
I was only refering to the non-PASM cars. If memory serves me right, Champion was installing them

Oh, we can't get a non-PASM 997S here

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Apr 11, 2006 10:19:15 PM

John H: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cheshire, UK , United Kingdom; Posts: 7682, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 20, 2005; Reply to: Grant

Re: Thanks Fanch - I tried -20mm sports suspension yesterday

Quote:
Grant said:
Quote:
Carlos from Spain said:
I was only refering to the non-PASM cars. If memory serves me right, Champion was installing them

Oh, we can't get a non-PASM 997S here

I think Carlos may have been referring to the Base Carrera non-S.

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Apr 11, 2006 10:37:25 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12586, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: John H

Re: Thanks Fanch - I tried -20mm sports suspension yesterday

Quote:
John H said:I think Carlos may have been referring to the Base Carrera non-S.

Makes sense - now I see that MHakinnen has a non-S. In that case, I would still consider buying adjustable swaybars to tune for the missing LSD...

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Apr 11, 2006 10:44:49 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21152, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: Grant

Re: Thanks Fanch - I tried -20mm sports suspension yesterday

Sorry, yes I was reffering to the base 997 which comes standard with non-PASM suspensions. The sway bars would be a good idea, the system was designed with the LSD in mind, maybe that would help.

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Apr 12, 2006 11:25:05 AM

easy_rider911: Rennteam VIP; Loc: London , United Kingdom; Posts: 22190, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 8, 2004; Reply to: Peely

Further clarification on -20mm sports suspension....

Quote:
Peely said:
I take it you've obviously tried the pasm car as well before you first ordered your car.

So just exactly what was the difference in the two ?

Better handling, more responsive steering, better exiting corners with the lsd, etc, etc ?

Peely,

Yes - I've test driven a 997S 3 times over the past 18 months. All 3 were PASM.

Obviously I can't answer about handling, steering & exiting from corners with -20mm & LSD because I didn't actually drive it - I just rode in it - plus Fanch and I only drove around central London (down Park Lane, through the underpass under Hyde Park corner [my goodness did the PSE make a fantastic sound in that tunnel!] and various other places for about 45 minutes) so we didn't try it on the open roads. However, IMHO I think one can safely assume that handling, steering, exiting from corners will only be better with -20mm (and not worse). [Incidentally this was at around 6pm on Sunday evening so we didn't go out of London - we feared the traffic coming back into London would be horrendous plus Fanch had another commitment that evening.]

Anyhow, the bottom line is that my main concern with -20mm was nothing to do with 'performance' i.e. steering, handling, corner exiting etc. I was perfectly confident that these would be better than PASM before I even sat in the car. My ONLY concern was ride comfort. This will be an only car for me which I plan to use on an everyday basis so it has to be something I can live with on the often poor quality roads we have in London and the South East.

I can't tell you what will be right for you since everyone has their own sensitivity as to what level of comfort/firmness they need and how much firmness they can take. All I can say for sure is that, from a comfort/firmness perspective, IMHO -20mm is really wonderful. IMO it is firm without being harsh. I am very glad I chose it. I don't think you should harbour doubts as to its firmness/harshness. It's IMO more comfortable than PASM sport mode and it's a set up I can very happily live with every day.

Also, about the firmness - on a smooth road or even just a normal road, IMO I didn't feel any harshness. When going over a bump in the road, all I felt is a firm contact with it. It's quickly over and then the smoothness continues. IMO -20mm doesn't 'soak up' the firm contact with a sudden bump in the road like a Mercedes SL would (i.e. so that you don't even realise that the car went over any bump). IMO I felt the bump but it's just a firm 'thud', no more than that. I actually want to feel the road surface enough so that I feel actively involved with what the car is doing and how the tyres are interacting with the road. What I don't want is to be continuously shaken or for the ride quality to be one of continuous vibration with every grain of asphalt. That I couldn't live with.

I guess - I should say one more thing - it's a big purchase - Pounds65860 plus options. It's only natural not to take risks with such money and it's difficult to simply rely on what other people on the internet say (people you don't even know and whom you've never even met) when you haven't tried it yourself. What makes it harder to take that 'leap of faith' is that the UK dealers aren't neutral - they actively discourage buyers from choosing -20mm by arguing that it is 'for track use only' or that it 'will be worth less on resale'. I don't agree: I think -20mm is basically around three quarters of the way between PASM normal and PASM sport mode (closer to PASM sport than PASM normal). For me, for everyday use, that's just perfect.

Obviously, everything I've said is just my opinion. I can't tell you what to choose. I can only explain my own decision-making process and then it's for you to see if you think the same way or if a different set up meets your requirements.

Hope this helps. I really have tried to describe everything I can. Hope it sheds some more light on this for you and anyone else in this particular suspension dilemma

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Apr 12, 2006 11:31:11 AM

easy_rider911: Rennteam VIP; Loc: London , United Kingdom; Posts: 22190, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 8, 2004; Reply to: easy_rider911

Re: Further clarification on -20mm sports suspension....

Upon re-reading my previous post, maybe we should start a campaign to promote -20mm !

LOL

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Apr 12, 2006 11:40:58 AM

KresoF1: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Croatia , Croatia; Posts: 7856, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 3, 2005; Reply to: easy_rider911

Re: Further clarification on -20mm sports suspension....

Easy, I agree with you that -20mm/LSD is the way to go for 997/997S coupe with manual gearbox! It is truly sporty setup for enthusiastic driver.

It is not too stiff, specially when you compare it to PASM Sport mode...
But, if some of you will drive your 997 around town a lot(say 80% of time) or simply do want little bit more comfort-then choose PASM. IMO, -20mm/LSD is the best suspension for 997/997S coupe. But, what if Porsche is offering only LSD as a option on PASM cars(like 997 Turbo manual!)? What then!? Personally, I think that more then 90% of people would go for that one!
Also, Porsche is very keen on PASM! Look at new 997 Turbo and GT3, both of them have better version of PASM suspension.
So, do not be suprised if Porsche will offer soon LSD as option for manual version of PASM equiped 997/997S...
Also since -20mm/LSD is not available in USA I belive that all USA & Canadian buyers of 997/997S with manual gearbox would choose LSD(if available as option!), IMO.

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Apr 12, 2006 12:48:58 PM

Alex_997TT: Rennteam Master; Loc: Reading , United Kingdom; Posts: 3320, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 20, 2005; Reply to: KresoF1

Re: Further clarification on -20mm sports suspension....

My question is why do the OPC dealers all actively push PASM and discourage the sports suspension option (-20mm)? Are they just trying to justify the research and development costs Porsche has spent in coming up with PASM?

I notice that all the demo cars Porsche has given to programs like Top Gear all have the sports suspension as they want to get good reviews from them!

I didn't have the option of the Sports Suspension for my Cab. I believe they tweak the PASM anyway to help with the Cab's different handling dynamics as compared to the Coupe.

I know PASM vs Sports Suspension has been a hot topic on this board for a long time, but can someone also please explain to me: if you have the Sports Suspension then do you still have the 'Sports Chrono Plus' option? If so then what does pressing the sports button actually do in this case? Just water down the traction control and increase throttle response?!

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Apr 12, 2006 12:54:15 PM

rhino: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Island , Saint Lucia; Posts: 2866, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 26, 2006; Reply to: Alex_997TT

Re: Further clarification on -20mm sports suspension....

I wish we could get that 20mm and LSD over hear

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Apr 12, 2006 12:56:33 PM

KresoF1: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Croatia , Croatia; Posts: 7856, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 3, 2005; Reply to: Alex_997TT

Re: Further clarification on -20mm sports suspension....

Good question Alex!
If you have Sports Chrono Plus on -20mm/LSD car there are some benefites as well... Yes, there is increased throttle response in Sport mode but, since you have LSD PSM is programed differently then on PASM cars. In Sport mode there is possible oversteer when you push throttle to much in to the corners and then LSD comes in to the play! It is much easier to control oversteer with LSD when car is on the limit(or near it)! You really need to try -20mm/LSD car to see and feel the difference...
But, this is just my opinion.

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Thanks Fanch - I tried -20mm sports suspension yesterday!

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Re: Thanks Fanch - I tried -20mm sports suspension yesterday!

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Re: Thanks Fanch - I tried -20mm sports suspension yesterday

Further clarification on -20mm sports suspension....

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