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    Apr 8, 2006 4:01:23 PM

    BC
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    Porsche's plans for the 911 for the not to distant future???

    1) 993 , 996 , 997 , 998 , 999 and then what? porsche 2000 911?? and why did porsche go from 993 straight to 996 911's? what happend to 994 & 995??

    (Stupid question I know, but I was just wondering )




    2) Engine development can only go that far... Even BMW had could not improve much on their famous 3.2litre 6 cylinder engine after the M3, just look at the small gains compared with the CSL, AND the fact that they are going to use v8's in the next version... Sooo, what exactly is Porsche going going to do when their 911's famous 3.6/3.8 litre flat 6 reaches the end of its development. Flat 8's?
    4 litres?? Maybe, but if that engine lying in THAT end of the car gets much heavier hows the car going to handle?? I know that this IS Porsche that we are speaking about and that many critised their engine layout in the past before, only to be forced to eat their own words when Porsche proved them wrong time and time again, but come on, just for intersest's sake.
    Is the Cayman maybe an insight to the future??

    Apr 8, 2006 4:22:23 PM

    john999s
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    Re: Porsche's plans for the 911 for the not to distant future???

    99...10???

    Less weight is the way to go. How about this spec:

    1100kg or better nearer 1000kg.100kg for safety stuff.
    425hp GT3 evo engine
    Magnesium engine block, true dry sump as standard.
    Same width.
    Slightly shorter-back to closer to the proportions of original
    More aluminium and composite as standard in body -as well as hood and doors; roof, wings/fenders rear lid.
    High tech/lighter glass
    Choice of manual and DSG
    PCCB standard
    Remove half the interior weight by use of more advanced materials, leather on contact points
    Special lightweight rubber and magnesium wheels
    Lower with smaller frontal area.
    Downforce as standard on base model.
    Normally aspirated 0-100km 3.5, 0-160 sub 8 secs, 320 top end.
    Focus on outsourced components as currently but with total focus on weight reduction and durability.
    Button for rain/snow to soften everything off.
    BACK TO BASICS!

    With that who needs 1500kg plus and 500 hp plus? Weight is the key-or lack of it.

    Apr 8, 2006 4:36:25 PM

    BC
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    Reply to: john999s

    Re: Porsche's plans for the 911 for the not to distant future???

    Yeap..

    "Who needs 1500kg plus and 500hp plus?"
    Thats exactly why most still consider the Mclaren F1 to still be the best supercar.. Even in the face of the new Bugatti.. Skeletal weight and good power is better than MASSIVE power and huge weight any day...

    Those specs are cool... But will the car still be rear engined if the engine does get much heavier??

    Apr 8, 2006 4:41:16 PM

    john999s
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    Re: Porsche's plans for the 911 for the not to distant future???

    Lighter engine with lots of magnesium. Leave it out the back I'd say and keep it 'edgy'

    Apr 8, 2006 4:47:18 PM

    BC
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    Reply to: john999s

    Re: Porsche's plans for the 911 for the not to distant future???

    Quote:
    john999s said:
    Lighter engine with lots of magnesium. Leave it out the back I'd say and keep it 'edgy'



    But what about the "cheaper", base cars like the carrera's... How can Porsche make it work without using lots of exotic materials and making the prices rocket?

    But just imagine a GT3/GT2 with those specs... mmm, im drooling

    Apr 8, 2006 4:52:21 PM

    john999s
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    Reply to: BC

    Re: Porsche's plans for the 911 for the not to distant future???

    They need to up their game. That's the base Carrera.

    For the S you get even more exotic materials and less weight, higher lift cams, even bigger valves making it a bit 'lumpy' carbon fenders.

    If they can build an Elise for the price they do and you can put a magnesium block in a standard 3 litre BMW then I see no reason why great design (a la Murray) can't get the price/perfomance ratio better.

    Let's face it a Renault Clio has plastic wings and all of us with bikes have carbon all over them. And I don't believe Porsche isn't making a packet out of every GT3 it sells...

    Apr 8, 2006 4:58:14 PM

    BC
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    Reply to: john999s

    Re: Porsche's plans for the 911 for the not to distant future???

    True...
    Even though they do make the best sports cars, others have caught up. Chevy Corvette, BMW, Lotus, Noble, etc etc etc.
    Many cars are faster than Porsches for similar prices or even cheaper.

    They DO have to up their game...

    Apr 8, 2006 5:00:16 PM

    SoCal Alan
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    Reply to: BC

    Re: Porsche's plans for the 911 for the not to distant future???

    Quote:
    BC997J said:
    1) 993 , 996 , 997 , 998 , 999 and then what? porsche 2000 911?? and why did porsche go from 993 straight to 996 911's? what happend to 994 & 995??




    Don't worry, we could use hexidecimal...

    997, 998, 999, 99A, 99B, ... 99F, 9A0, 9A1, ... 9FF.

    We won't have to worry about the numbers in our lifetime. That's 105 more generations.

    Apr 8, 2006 5:02:44 PM

    john999s
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    Re: Porsche's plans for the 911 for the not to distant future???

    Compare the spec to a Z06 and it's competitive, I think. And at 911/911S prices it would deliver with no excuses. And even frighten an F car or two.

    I don't believe it's not possible to make decent profit with such a car with such a spec and there would never be a car parked on a forecourt in the US waiting for a buyer. Even if they continue to build 30,000 911 99-10's a year

    Apr 8, 2006 11:16:09 PM

    911fan
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    Reply to: john999s

    Re: Porsche's plans for the 911 for the not to distant future???

    Light weight is definitely what they should aim for. 3k pounds is too much. Also, it would be cool if they made more flat engines- maybe a flat 8 somewhere. I wish they would do some really innovative stuff with the flat six- some sort of new tech, I bet they could make it work/.

    Apr 8, 2006 11:48:01 PM

    Emperor
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    Re: Porsche's plans for the 911 for the not to distant futur

    excellent thread. The 3.6L engine is on the edge of its maximum power output and looking at the direction of the horse power war that is going on Porsche really need to start thinking about what type of engine is going to sit in the next gen 911 which will likely be facing 550hp+ beasts.

    They can alwasy increase the number of cylinders or displacement but that will probably compensate the handling.

    Cutting weight isn't either an option since the 911 is already signifigantly lighter than its competitors. Futher more the 911 has with the 997TT reached super sportscar acceleration and the question is if Porsche really needs to push the bounderies even more and intorudce a 911 which does 0-100km/h in less than 3.5sec?

    Apr 9, 2006 7:57:16 AM

    john999s
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    Re: Porsche's plans for the 911 for the not to distant futur

    I don't agree about weight. The GT3 just launched weighs a lot less than the 4wd cars even though it has external oil tank, thrid radiator, gearbox radiator, bigger brakes uprated suspension components PASM, wings and the heavier 4wd body structure.

    So I don't agree. If the guys who put the GT3 (and Turbo) on a diet to get the weight down had even more input up front on a clean sheet I think we'd see the sort of spec I put forward. Let's face it the 997 is a beefed up structure of a 996-a 10+ year old basic design. I'm sure that they can do better.

    You are right. The 911 is lighter than some cars. But if the power route is not feasible due to the limitations discussed then reduced weight (like racing cars) is the way to go. The great thing about losing weight would be that the justification for even bigger wheels, brakes, suspension components stops. Less weight means that many serious engineering components can be reduced in weight too.

    The reason I say this (and I suppose the marketing arguements about 500+hp are another story) is that in a world of vanishing resources, 600hp AMG's doing single figure mpg, there is more than one way to add performance and the intelligent way is efficiency. That means yes have fast efficent engines by all means (but flat 6 ) but use modern materials and design to lose 30% of the weight.

    Example: Look at any component in your 911 and imagine how you could achieve the same function, durability and relability, but make it weigh one third less. Now think about how you can buy that part in you just thought about cheaply. Materials play a vital role but so does design.

    Porsche is treading a diffcult path trying to compete with the numbers of the competitors whilst retaining its sports car appeal. Adding more and more power can always be done and electronics get better and better at trying to defy the laws of physics. So putting 600hp in an E class merc will always make it fast in a straight line. But the more intelligent way is to deliver a car that has interesting numbers but is much more efficient at delivering them.

    I believe Porsche knows this and gives us good cars. But the time has come to open the gap and deliver really great cars rather than cars that are as good as or just better than the opposition.

    Apr 9, 2006 8:04:30 AM

    BC
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    Reply to: john999s

    Re: Porsche's plans for the 911 for the not to distant futur

    You're right John but if Porsche does that to all its cars (even "normal" Carrera's/S) what will that leave for others like the GT3/2/Turbo/even RS?

    Apr 9, 2006 8:12:02 AM

    john999s
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    Re: Porsche's plans for the 911 for the not to distant futur

    What I'm sying is raise the basic standard to a level where it is really special. Then add exotic materials to make it lighter faster more expensive. Think about your bike (if you have one). If you get the ducati parts catalogue you can replace the plastic, alloy components with carbon, magnesium titanium if you want to. It even gives the weights of the components and savings.

    Make the special versions really sepcial and price them accordingly.

    BTW I hope you had a great party

    Apr 9, 2006 8:16:19 AM

    john999s
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    Re: Porsche's plans for the 911 for the not to distant futur

    Take a look here and then look under Carbo magnesium and you'll get the idea?

    http://www.ducati.com/shop/category.jsp?catid=catimp00100

    Apr 9, 2006 10:54:52 PM

    icon
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    Porsche's plans for the 911 for the not to distant futur

    ditch the rear seats and move the engine in front of the rear axle.
    and as others have mentioned concentrate on dropping weight!

    Apr 10, 2006 5:18:48 AM

    MKM
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    Re: Porsche's plans for the 911 for the not to distant futur

    Direct Injection

    Apr 10, 2006 7:43:59 AM

    BC
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    Re: Porsche's plans for the 911 for the not to distant futur

    Quote:
    icon said:
    ditch the rear seats and move the engine in front of the rear axle.
    and as others have mentioned concentrate on dropping weight!



    But then would it still be a 911???
    Remember the ruccus when Porsche went from air to water cooled? That will be like nothing compared to what would happen if they do that... That layout is what makes a 911 a 911.

    Apr 10, 2006 7:49:32 AM

    BC
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    Reply to: Emperor

    Re: Porsche's plans for the 911 for the not to distant futur

    Quote:
    luwalira said:
    excellent thread. The 3.6L engine is on the edge of its maximum power output and looking at the direction of the horse power war that is going on Porsche really need to start thinking about what type of engine is going to sit in the next gen 911 which will likely be facing 550hp+ beasts.

    They can alwasy increase the number of cylinders or displacement but that will probably compensate the handling.

    Cutting weight isn't either an option since the 911 is already signifigantly lighter than its competitors. Futher more the 911 has with the 997TT reached super sportscar acceleration and the question is if Porsche really needs to push the bounderies even more and intorudce a 911 which does 0-100km/h in less than 3.5sec?



    Exactly my thoughts. Porsche will eventually have to increase the size of their flat 6's to get more power, and if the weight goes up by much the cars handling will suffer. If they then decide to move the engine to the middle...well thats 40 years of heritage down the drain then.

    Porsche cannot exactly offer Turbo engines across the range aswell... Same as highly strung engines like in the GT3

    Apr 10, 2006 7:55:22 AM

    BC
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    Reply to: john999s

    Re: Porsche's plans for the 911 for the not to distant futur

    Quote:
    john999s said:

    BTW I hope you had a great party



    I had a excellent party. Thanxx


    Quote:
    What I'm sying is raise the basic standard to a level where it is really special. Then add exotic materials to make it lighter faster more expensive. Think about your bike (if you have one). If you get the ducati parts catalogue you can replace the plastic, alloy components with carbon, magnesium titanium if you want to. It even gives the weights of the components and savings.

    Make the special versions really sepcial and price them accordingly.



    You are right but do think that those guys will do that? I dont. Looks like they are more interested in profits than anything else at the moment...

    Apr 10, 2006 9:03:44 AM

    The Groom
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    Re: Porsche's plans for the 911 for the not to distant futur

    Quote:
    icon said:
    ditch the rear seats and move the engine in front of the rear axle.
    and as others have mentioned concentrate on dropping weight!


    You sure must be talking about the Cayman.

    A 911 must have rear seats (race versions excepted) and especially a rear-mounted flat-6 engine. Otherwise, it's just another sports car.

    The part about rear seats mustn't be overlooked IMHO. What makes a 911 so special is that it's the ultimate all-rounder. Having rear seats is part of this philosophy.
    I for one wouldn't buy a 911 as my only car if it did not have rear seats, because those emergency seats come in handy very, very often.

    Apr 10, 2006 1:31:21 PM

    BC
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    Re: Porsche's plans for the 911 for the not to distant futur

    Like I said in my first post.... Is the Cayman an insight to the future for us... Will a car like that be the 911 ultimate replacement eventually??

    Apr 10, 2006 1:35:03 PM

    john999s
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    Reply to: BC

    Re: Porsche's plans for the 911 for the not to distant futur

    Build both! But up the game!!

    Apr 10, 2006 3:15:57 PM

    john999s
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    Re: Porsche's plans for the 911 for the not to distant futur

    On the original spec I should have said PDK not DSG. I'm surprised RC didn't put me straight

    Of course not the 962 version but all new singing and dancing

    Apr 13, 2006 7:58:28 AM

    icon
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    Reply to: The Groom

    Re: Porsche's plans for the 911 for the not to distant futur

    Quote:
    The Groom said:
    Quote:
    icon said:
    ditch the rear seats and move the engine in front of the rear axle.
    and as others have mentioned concentrate on dropping weight!


    The part about rear seats mustn't be overlooked IMHO. What makes a 911 so special is that it's the ultimate all-rounder. Having rear seats is part of this philosophy.
    I for one wouldn't buy a 911 as my only car if it did not have rear seats, because those emergency seats come in handy very, very often.


    the rumor is that once the new panamerica(sic?) is out and selling that the 911 will no longer need the rear seats.
    and the plan is for porsche to move the engine in front of the rear axle on the 911.
    just like moving from air cool to water cool going to the better configuration.
    the need to keep up with the competition.
    if you want heritage go ride a horse

    Apr 13, 2006 12:53:11 PM

    BC
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    Reply to: icon

    Re: Porsche's plans for the 911 for the not to distant futur

    Quote:
    icon said:
    Quote:
    The Groom said:
    Quote:
    icon said:
    ditch the rear seats and move the engine in front of the rear axle.
    and as others have mentioned concentrate on dropping weight!


    The part about rear seats mustn't be overlooked IMHO. What makes a 911 so special is that it's the ultimate all-rounder. Having rear seats is part of this philosophy.
    I for one wouldn't buy a 911 as my only car if it did not have rear seats, because those emergency seats come in handy very, very often.


    the rumor is that once the new panamerica(sic?) is out and selling that the 911 will no longer need the rear seats.
    and the plan is for porsche to move the engine in front of the rear axle on the 911.
    just like moving from air cool to water cool going to the better configuration.
    the need to keep up with the competition.
    if you want heritage go ride a horse



    Then what high performance sportscar will be on offer with space for four? That was one of the 911's best selling points i think

    I feel sorry for those who have to make these decisions

    Apr 18, 2006 1:30:51 PM

    shin
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    Re: Porsche's plans for the 911 for the not to distant futur

    It makes perfect sense that once the Panamera is out, the 911 can lose its rear seats, and I really hope the 998 will be mid-engined. Before anyone screams 'But rear engined is what makes a 911', let's recall that the 911 was also air-cooled and not anymore. The move to mid-engined, 2-seater will give Porsche the opportunity to give the 911 a bigger engine and move up the 911's price (they really like doing this) closer to Ferrari's entry-level model.

    Besides, the Cayman S is too close to 911's territory, I think by releasing the Cayman S, Porsche is preparing the 998 to move up a class, both in horsepower and price.

    Apr 18, 2006 1:38:43 PM

    intouch1
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    Reply to: shin

    Re: Porsche's plans for the 911 for the not to distant futur

    i have to disagree. they should leave the 911 untouched and continue evolving the base concept while sticking to it.

    what they need to do is develop a true sports car. mid-engine layout. actually they did that with the cayman and went only half way in order not to threaten the 911s appeal and market position.

    the 911 should be what to ferrari is the 599 or the 612.
    the caymen should be the f430.

    i.e. whereas the 911 must remain the ultimate porsche, a true sports car should be introduced.

    then again, the 911 comes in so many guises that there is a car for everyone. i also think that the gt2 can be considered an ultimate sportscar. also the gt3 is a true sports car. todays 911 have so much grip and roadholding performance, that its as good as a mid-engine layout.

    if it aint broke, dont fix it.

    shame about the cayman though....

    Apr 18, 2006 1:51:26 PM

    BC
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    Re: Porsche's plans for the 911 for the not to distant futur

    Couldnt have said it better myself....

    Apr 18, 2006 3:25:52 PM

    bostonmini
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    Re: Porsche's plans for the 911 for the not to distant futur

    make a smaller flat 6 with a supercharger. this saves the turbo name. an S/C engine may not be as reliable for track use, but its wet sumped anyways....perfect answer:)
     
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