Crown

Board: Porsche Language: English Region: Worldwide Share/Save/Bookmark Close

Forum - Thread


    Had a chat with a PAG Manager

      was last week in Davos at the world economic forum. By coincidence I was sitting next to an influential Porsche Manager. After some drinks he opened up and started talking

    • 718....918.... logical consequence to see an 818 -> he said that might be very logical ;)
    • 4-Zylinder - plan is to offer in a very near future only engines up to 4-Zylinder. I asked for the Panamera, Cayenne, etc. He answered "all of our line up". 
    • Hybrid - he said, they are only build out of marketing reasons and due to the fleet consumption regulatory. He talked quiet long about his impression while test driving the upcoming car. The Batteries are still to heavy which takes the Porsche - factor out of the car
    • VW disaster - he explained - before the disaster VW was really making a huge positive, financial impact to Porsche. Lots of money came in, advantage in R&D was enormous. But today lots of the earnings are parked, R&D was reduced, some areas even frozen. He fears that things are slowing down.
    • Regarding the former CEO Müller, it sounded like he didnt had a chance and had to go to VW. He added "we lost spirit at Porsche".
    • My question regarding the most exciting upcoming car, he said "the mission E". I asked about a GT3RS / GT4, etc. in the next year but he refused to to answer. Same when I asked about further limited cars - he said "this was an excellent idea we had there " and it clearly sounded like a strategy where we probably will see more of.

    Remarks: not sure how reliable the discussion has been, but he was in the right position to know whats going on. Was he honest - no glue?

     


    Re: Had a chat with a PAG Manager

    only 4 cylinder engines - in future we all will have ev vehicles, so maybe the last porsche combustion engines will be 4 cylinder ones. But it is quite far perspective. 

    On 918 example we can see that hybrid can add the power. not only reduce emissions.

    Others - internal policy. Everything is possible.


    --

    sportcars-history.com


    Re: Had a chat with a PAG Manager

    kudryavchik:

    only 4 cylinder engines - in future we all will have ev vehicles, so maybe the last porsche combustion engines will be 4 cylinder ones. But it is quite far perspective. 

    Actually now when you say... he was talking about 15 years from he expect to sell only EVs


    Re: Had a chat with a PAG Manager

    First of all - we have to wait for new batteries. Li-ion are too heavy. Who knows what will happen in 15 years. But to be fair, except sound I don't see any engineering positives of using V12, V10 and V8 engines. Its clearly the past.


    --

    sportcars-history.com


    Re: Had a chat with a PAG Manager

    I think the new batteries we are waiting for are fuel cells.


    Re: Had a chat with a PAG Manager

    We will see. Currently they are unstable and, if I am not wrong, extract some level of radiation


    --

    sportcars-history.com


    Re: Had a chat with a PAG Manager

    kudryavchik:

    only 4 cylinder engines - in future we all will have ev vehicles, so maybe the last porsche combustion engines will be 4 cylinder ones. But it is quite far perspective. 

    On 918 example we can see that hybrid can add the power. not only reduce emissions.

    Others - internal policy. Everything is possible.

    Porsche will offer what the markets "expect" them to offer, as weird as this may sound. If they think they call pull off a 4-cyl. Cayenne or Panamera, they will do it. However, I think that the manager didn't really know a lot about R&D and what is going on at Weissach right now. Smiley As far as I know, Porsche plans to offer some new turbo charged downsized 8-cyl. models in the Cayenne and the Panamera, which are very fuel efficient, even compared to the current turbo charged V6s. Yes, there is also a lot going on in the EV department and hybrid department.

    4-cyl. in the Cayenne and Panamera? It would kill these two in a second. I do not see that happen, not now and not even in ten years.

    The turbo charged flat 4 in the Boxster (718) was a logical consequence after it was clear that even the Porsche icon, the 911, will get a turbo charged flat 6. 

    Using hybrid tech in a Cayenne or Panamera is also easier than in a Boxster or 911 and Porsche knows that even the current turbo charged V6 doesn't have many friends in the Cayenne and Panamera, letting the Diesel models aside.


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

     


    Re: Had a chat with a PAG Manager

    I don't know, the new Volvo XC90 only comes with a 4-cyl. In it's top hybrid form it has 400hp and 640nm/torque. Looking at the vast number of base V6 cayennes I see running around (I would say about 60% of all cayennes I see) there is a pretty large subset of owners that obviously don't care too much about the engine.

    If you gave Cayenne owners a choice of a 4-cyl hybrid with 450hp and 700nm with gas mileage less than their old V6 I bet you would sell lots and lots of them. 

    Not to you, and probably not to me, but still to many other people...  


    --

    Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region


    Re: Had a chat with a PAG Manager

    Mithras:

    I don't know, the new Volvo XC90 only comes with a 4-cyl. In it's top hybrid form it has 400hp and 640nm/torque. Looking at the vast number of base V6 cayennes I see running around (I would say about 60% of all cayennes I see) there is a pretty large subset of owners that obviously don't care too much about the engine.

    I was referring to the new turbo charged V6 used in the S and the GTS, not the V6. People buy the V6 because it is one of the cheapest Cayenne models and the Cayenne isn't exactly a bargain. Many prefer to put lots of options into the car and get a V6 instead of ordering a naked S.

    If you gave Cayenne owners a choice of a 4-cyl hybrid with 450hp and 700nm with gas mileage less than their old V6 I bet you would sell lots and lots of them. 

    Don't be too sure about this. A Hybrid would cost much more than the V6 and probably even more than the turbo charged V6.

    Not to you, and probably not to me, but still to many other people...  

    True but the current "S" and GTS aren't exactly bestsellers as far as I heard. I'm not surprised.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: Had a chat with a PAG Manager

    I"m talking more about the downmarket side of the Cayenne. I agree the people/purists that buy a GTS are looking for a V8. No V6 is going to cut it. Same goes for the Turbo (though a Turbo V6 making 625hp is still a turbo making 625hp and probably wouldn't be shunned too too much ;) )

    But the S and and base V6 could I think easily be swapped with a turbo 4-cyl and a turbo 4-cyl hybrid and I don't think there would be too much angst as long as the performance is there on the S side and the price and fuel economy is there on the base side. 

    A Cayenne S hybrid as the only S with a 4-cyl making 450hp and 700nm would make most people forget about the V6 and the V8 S is long ago history by then.

    Same goes for a base Cayenne in a 4-cyl. If it made 325hp and 450nm, I doubt many people would care it was a 4-cyl. Just like most people that buy them now don't car it's a VW Golf VR6 in it now!


    --

    Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region


    Re: Had a chat with a PAG Manager

    Mithras:

    Same goes for a base Cayenne in a 4-cyl. If it made 325hp and 450nm, I doubt many people would care it was a 4-cyl. Just like most people that buy them now don't car it's a VW Golf VR6 in it now!

    I still think this would be a problem for Porsche but you never know, especially if oil (fuel) prices go up again.

    The rumored downsized turbo charged V8 engines make more sense in my opinion, especially for the top tier models.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: Had a chat with a PAG Manager

    I only think they can do this with the base and (maybe) the S in turbo and turbo hybrid forms respectively.

    I love small V8s. A 3.5ltr turbo V8 is just fine with me! Heck I even had a BMW 530i with a manual for a period. Little 3.0ltr V8, sounded good and was as fast as a 535i plus it had a manual. ;)


    --

    Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region


    Re: Had a chat with a PAG Manager

    The person I talked to new exactly whats going on in the R&D. I didn't had the feeling that he fools me. I would be happy if it would have been the case ;) I made very clear I can't believe a 4 Cylinder in a Cayenne or Panamera - he just answered... "wait and see". 

    We will see! But how you say in Germany. "Other mothers also have beautiful daughters".... I don't need to buy a Porsche - there are other beautiful cars out there, too. 

     


    Re: Had a chat with a PAG Manager

    Lars997:

    The person I talked to new exactly whats going on in the R&D. I didn't had the feeling that he fools me. I would be happy if it would have been the case ;) I made very clear I can't believe a 4 Cylinder in a Cayenne or Panamera - he just answered... "wait and see". 

    We will see! But how you say in Germany. "Other mothers also have beautiful daughters".... I don't need to buy a Porsche - there are other beautiful cars out there, too. 

     

    I don't think he fooled you, maybe he was talking a far away future and possibilities. Or he was talking base models. 

    The car industry doesn't seem to think that the low oil price will stay forever, actually they are planning more of an "exit strategy" from oil. So maybe he was referring to that future, which would make sense.

    If fuel costs double or triple the price it costs now, I think that even 2-cyl. engines would be acceptable in a Cayenne if the fuel consumption would be lowered. Smiley Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: Had a chat with a PAG Manager

    Right RC - he talked about exit of oil within 15 yrs. As stated - personally - I cant see a huge Sporty-SUV with a tiny engine. 

    Actually - I don't understand this whole small-engine scenario. How many sports cars are out there? Really? for this kind of a small percentage of cars they want to reduce the engine size? God pray all the other brands which are still thinking big! Lambo, Ferrari, Bugatti, Aston.... Luxury sport cars need big engines IMO. In this case I say - screw Porsche! I want an engine in my sports car!

    Otherwise it is a bit like this - which dog you want to have to protect you? smiley 


    Re: Had a chat with a PAG Manager

    Lars997:

    Otherwise it is a bit like this - which dog you want to have to protect you? smiley 


    SmileySmileySmiley

    Man, I'm already now so fed up with this 2.0 litre four cylinder crap you get at each and every car manufacturer instead of a good old 3.0 six cylinder. Smiley

    If Porsche really will be next, then I'm no longer interested in this brand any longer. Smiley


    --

    We're at the point where you can be the fastest or just sound like you're the fastest.



    The secret of life is to admire without desiring.


    Re: Had a chat with a PAG Manager

    Good observation Stefan!

    It seems to me that now is the time to buy "keeper" sportscar.

    Be it Huracan LP580-2, 991.2 Turbo or even AMG GT-S. Next generation could use maximally 3.0l 6cyl turbo engines... Not the future I am looking forward.


    Re: Had a chat with a PAG Manager

    KresoF1:

    Good observation Stefan!

    It seems to me that now is the time to buy "keeper" sportscar.

    Be it Huracan LP580-2, 991.2 Turbo or even AMG GT-S. Next generation could use maximally 3.0l 6cyl turbo engines... Not the future I am looking forward.

    I see it the same. Buy keepers.... at least cars which don't loose the value. I would go even a generation backwards. Get a Gallardo, F430 - they 991.1 - or as RC says an R8 V10 - it seems they are really on the lowest mark. Not much you can do wrong with those cars.  


    Re: Had a chat with a PAG Manager

    The R8 V10 Plus is still on the table. Such cars won't be available anymore for "little money" at some point in the future.

    Also, I am seriously considering the Huracan LP580 but I still want to see what Porsche does with the next 911 Turbo generation. From a tech point of view, this car will be highly attractive but if it sounds like crap, I won't get it.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: Had a chat with a PAG Manager

    Guys, want you or not. But 4-6 cylinder high efficiency engines is the present and nearest future. EV is clearly the future. V12,V10,V8 is the past and even such companies as Porsche, Lambo, Ferrari, Aston will kill them. It is only the matter of time, otherwise, their business will die. Car market will evolve very fast, and those who will not keep up the pace - will go to the history.

    And the oil price is not the reason, the reason is the postindustrial epoch we are entering in.


    --

    sportcars-history.com


    Re: Had a chat with a PAG Manager

    kudryavchik:

    Guys, want you or not. But 4-6 cylinder high efficiency engines is the present and nearest future. EV is clearly the future. V12,V10,V8 is the past and even such companies as Porsche, Lambo, Ferrari, Aston will kill them. It is only the matter of time, otherwise, their business will die. Car market will evolve very fast, and those who will not keep up the pace - will go to the history.

    Yes, this is what will happen. Unfortunately. I love tech but if tech becomes the main selling point of a car and not the emotional part of the particular car, then we have a serious problem.

    I still believe that the combustion engine is at the beginning and not at the end but I'm no engineer. Also, I think that a 4-cyl. engine in a Porsche sports car or even worse, in a Cayenne or Panamera, will be difficult to swallow for customers. At some point, Porsche will run into issues, I am pretty sure about it. Not so sure how they will handle it though.

    Even now I know people who do not buy a car judging it by emotional gains or performance but what kind and how many driving assist systems it offers. Smiley Smiley I was always wondering why BMW and Mercedes are swamping up their cars with driver assist systems and high tech but apparently there is a huge market and customer demand for it. I saw some BMW base Diesel models fully equipped with all their high tech for over 80k EUR. This insane. Performance and emotions don't count that much anymore, people seem to have switched to a different perception of value. Weird.

    And the oil price is not the reason, the reason is the postindustrial epoch we are entering in.

    It is actually the need for a change, a change from combustion to something different, for the sake of the planet. At least this is the official reason. The unofficial reason may be the desire to discover new markets and make more money in business domains with stagnating technologies. Smiley Smiley


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

     


    Re: Had a chat with a PAG Manager

    For me it is very difficult to judge, but I believe that lightweight EV cars or hybrids with 4-6 cylinder engines can also be very emotional. Simply look on Porsche racing 919. 1350 hp and only v4 engine))) Of course, it is racing car, but it is the concept we will see in production for sure. 

    V12,V10 and V8 are not so efficient, they are very large and heavyweight. If the customer will see 800 hp cayenne hybrid with 4 cylinder engine I am sure the car will sell like hotcakes. Torque will also increase significantly. What I see in this forum, when people start to discuss the amount of cylinders is the old approach and view when people think that amount of cylinders means power. Future 4-6 cylinder engines will be much more efficient and powerful. Hybrid systems will increase the torque drammatically.

    About emotions - for majority of people the car is the tool of transportation or the thing to show everyone the personal level of wealth. Emotions of driving is nothing for 90% of consumers. I am quite sure that 90% of ferraris and lambos are sold to people who are looking to show themselves with car but not to feel the real emotion during the drivivng.

    About postindustrial epoch. I don't think that cars are the major pollutant of air. Factories and industries pollute much more than all cars in the world. To lower the pollution the factories, industries should change the source of energy. It is wrong to think that buying EV car you same the planet because to produce the energy factories burn coal, oil and gas.

    Cars go next after factories in terms of pollution, EV  and hybrids is the way here. But I believe it is much more important in the evolution to move from inefficient systems (V12,V10,V8) to much more efficient ones. Having more sourcing less. Its like with processors (new processors consume the same amount of energy calculating the things 20 times faster than P4 processors f.e.), storage (HDD - SSD).  Also, lets not forget that combustion engine being a mechanism is an old thing itself. Normal evolution, so be ready:)

    Large, noisy, inefficient tools will go into history and its right.


    --

    sportcars-history.com


    Re: Had a chat with a PAG Manager

    Porsche V4 for LMP1 is a great unit, better than any V12, V10 and V8. Only 2 liters, weighting nothing, producing by rumors around 800 hp. Amazing piece of tech.IMG_0751.PNG
    IMG_0750.PNG
    --

     

    sportcars-history.com

     


    Re: Had a chat with a PAG Manager

    kudryavchik:

    Porsche V4 for LMP1 is a great unit, better than any V12, V10 and V8. Only 2 liters, weighting nothing, producing by rumors around 800 hp. Amazing piece of tech.


     

      That is technological progress and sure from the KPIs point of view it is  better, faster, leaner, greener etc. Today the new Boxster 718 S will do 0-100 km/h in 4 seconds as also some high powered SUV , sport sedans, will do the same or similar or better. Performance , measured by KPIs, is "almost" a commodity.  What is not (imho) a commodity is the sense of occasion that still certain brands can achieve. This sense of occasion for someone is to fire up a V12 or a Flat Six  on an early weekend morning and have a good drive without needing to brake the latest Nurburgring record  and without the need to have the latest electronic gadget that will tell you what you are supposed to do in your car. Just my two cents.


    Re: Had a chat with a PAG Manager

    kudryavchik:

    For me it is very difficult to judge, but I believe that lightweight EV cars or hybrids with 4-6 cylinder engines can also be very emotional. Simply look on Porsche racing 919. 1350 hp and only v4 engine))) Of course, it is racing car, but it is the concept we will see in production for sure. 

    This comparison is not really a good one. Have you heard a 4-cyl. F1 engine and how it sounds? Smiley You'll never get that for a street car. Comparing apples with oranges...actually apples with...hmm...avocados. Smiley

    V12,V10 and V8 are not so efficient, they are very large and heavyweight. If the customer will see 800 hp cayenne hybrid with 4 cylinder engine I am sure the car will sell like hotcakes. Torque will also increase significantly. What I see in this forum, when people start to discuss the amount of cylinders is the old approach and view when people think that amount of cylinders means power. Future 4-6 cylinder engines will be much more efficient and powerful. Hybrid systems will increase the torque drammatically.

    You don't seem to understand. Emotions are not about technology. Have you driven a Tesla S? The P85D is an amazing piece of technology but the only fun I had in this car was playing with the features and setups. The drive itself gets boring soon.

    About emotions - for majority of people the car is the tool of transportation or the thing to show everyone the personal level of wealth. Emotions of driving is nothing for 90% of consumers. I am quite sure that 90% of ferraris and lambos are sold to people who are looking to show themselves with car but not to feel the real emotion during the drivivng.

    Whoever pays 100k or more for a car wants a certain quantity of emotions. Many people are indeed happy with the "superiority" feel, they know they drive something expensive and that other people notice that. I am not that type of person, I drive the cars because I love how they feel and sound. Yes, a certain percentage of customers will accept the new development but especially in the more expensive category, car manufacturers will have difficulties to sell the new tech. I guess manufacturers know this well, the is why they start with the cars for the lower income classes. Smiley Smiley

    About postindustrial epoch. I don't think that cars are the major pollutant of air. Factories and industries pollute much more than all cars in the world. To lower the pollution the factories, industries should change the source of energy. It is wrong to think that buying EV car you same the planet because to produce the energy factories burn coal, oil and gas.

    EVs are pretty much the future, I am pretty sure about it. Especially once we find a source for cheap, infinite or easy to get energy. Maybe all three. Battery technology will have a breakthrough at some point and I am waiting for this moment because it won't only have an influence on cars and their development.

    Cars go next after factories in terms of pollution, EV  and hybrids is the way here. But I believe it is much more important in the evolution to move from inefficient systems (V12,V10,V8) to much more efficient ones. Having more sourcing less. Its like with processors (new processors consume the same amount of energy calculating the things 20 times faster than P4 processors f.e.), storage (HDD - SSD).  Also, lets not forget that combustion engine being a mechanism is an old thing itself. Normal evolution, so be ready:)

    Large, noisy, inefficient tools will go into history and its right.

    I still think that sportscars with combustion engines will die a slow death, a much slower death than cheaper/more ordinary cars. Combustion engines and their sound(s) offer way too much emotions to be wiped out soon. It will happen but slowly. Maybe not over the next 30 years but I am pretty sure than in 20 years max, combustion engines in regular cars will be a thing of the past. The revolution will start with a new battery tech and cheaper production solutions.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: Had a chat with a PAG Manager

    Flat 6, especially 3 liter one is a great engine. Very efficient and quite compact. V12 - lots of moving parts, huge engine. 

    Of course, I agree with you that for some one starting up V12 is great. Somebody, who has AU from 1937 could even start up V16 - great car, engine is a piece of art. But it is OLD way)


    --

    sportcars-history.com


    Re: Had a chat with a PAG Manager

    Ok. Will the engine noise through the sound system help?)))


    --

    sportcars-history.com


    Re: Had a chat with a PAG Manager

    kudryavchik:

    Ok. Will the engine noise through the sound system help?)))

    No, it won't.  At least for me.


    Re: Had a chat with a PAG Manager

    so, what you are going to do when there will be only 4 and 6 cylinder engines?)


    --

    sportcars-history.com


    Re: Had a chat with a PAG Manager

    kudryavchik:

    so, what you are going to do when there will be only 4 and 6 cylinder engines?)

    Accept the way these new 4 and 6 cyl engine will sound. New 991.2 CS sound pretty decent to my ears with PSE. Same about 718 Boxster S with PSE.


     
    Edit

    Forum

    Board Subject Last post Rating Views Replies
    Porsche Sticky SUN'S LAST RUN TO WILSON, WY - 991 C2S CAB LIFE, END OF AN ERA (Part II) 5/15/24 8:44 AM
    art.italy
    806277 1808
    Porsche Sticky Welcome to Rennteam: Cars and Coffee... (photos) 4/7/24 11:48 AM
    Boxster Coupe GTS
    449448 565
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: Porsche 911 (992) GT3 RS - 2022 3/12/24 8:28 AM
    DJM48
    267022 323
    Porsche Sticky The new Macan: the first all-electric SUV from Porsche 1/30/24 9:18 AM
    RCA
    90434 45
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: Taycan 2024 Facelift 3/15/24 1:23 PM
    CGX car nut
    7171 50
    Porsche The moment I've been waiting for... 2/1/24 7:01 PM
    Pilot
     
     
     
     
     
    887133 1364
    Porsche 992 GT3 7/23/23 7:01 PM
    Grant
    835840 3868
    Porsche GT4RS 4/21/24 11:50 AM
    mcdelaug
    401454 1454
    Porsche Welcome to the new Taycan Forum! 2/10/24 4:43 PM
    nberry
    397261 1526
    Others Tesla 2 the new thread 12/13/23 2:48 PM
    CGX car nut
    385051 2401
    Porsche Donor vehicle for Singer Vehicle Design 7/3/23 12:30 PM
    Porker
    371583 797
    Porsche Red Nipples 991.2 GT3 Touring on tour 5/12/24 6:23 PM
    blueflame
    294090 669
    Porsche Collected my 997 GTS today 10/19/23 7:06 PM
    CGX car nut
     
     
     
     
     
    267209 812
    Lambo Huracán EVO STO 7/30/23 6:59 PM
    mcdelaug
    244475 346
    Lotus Lotus Emira 6/25/23 2:53 PM
    Enmanuel
    238959 101
    Others Corvette C8 10/16/23 3:24 PM
    Enmanuel
    222916 488
    Others Gordon Murray - T.50 11/22/23 10:27 AM
    mcdelaug
    173471 387
    Porsche Back to basics - 996 GT3 RS 6/11/23 5:13 PM
    CGX car nut
    145276 144
    BMW M 2024 BMW M3 CS Official Now 12/29/23 9:04 AM
    RCA
    121563 303
    Motor Sp. 2023 Formula One 12/19/23 5:38 AM
    WhoopsyM
    113152 685
    Porsche 2022 992 Safari Model 3/7/24 4:22 PM
    WhoopsyM
    86108 239
    AMG Mercedes-Benz W124 500E aka Porsche typ 2758 2/23/24 10:03 PM
    blueflame
    76333 297
    Porsche 992 GT3 RS 3/3/24 7:22 PM
    WhoopsyM
    55327 314
    Motor Sp. Porsche 963 5/18/24 9:44 PM
    Wonderbar
    27094 249
    Ferrari Ferrari 296 GTB (830PS, Hybrid V6) 1/21/24 4:29 PM
    GT-Boy
    22040 103
    BMW M 2022 BMW M5 CS 4/8/24 1:43 PM
    Ferdie
    20615 140
    AMG G63 sold out 9/15/23 7:38 PM
    Nico997
    17342 120
    AMG [2022] Mercedes-AMG SL 4/23/24 1:24 PM
    RCA
    15050 225
    Motor Sp. 24-Hour race Nürburgring 2018 5/25/23 10:42 PM
    Grant
    11794 55
    Porsche Porsche Mission X Hypercar 12/3/23 8:52 AM
    996FourEss
    11220 63
    122 items found, displaying 1 to 30.