Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: Setting off from cold. - Page1

Apr 4, 2006 6:14:10 PM

John H: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cheshire, UK , United Kingdom; Posts: 7682, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 20, 2005

Setting off from cold.

I've seen many posts on several threads that advocate the following:

1) Never warm up the engine at idle i.e. start up - move off. (the manual supports this.)

2) Don't floor it until the oil temp is up to normal.

3) Don't floor it until the water temp is up to normal.

My question is - how important is it to get water and oil temps right up before engaging in some spirited driving?

You see, although I live in the country, it's only an 8 mile trip to town which is exactly where my temps get up to normal, same on the trip back! There are some super lanes for driving in between but am loathe to take full advantage for the above reasons.

Any advice would be gratefully received.

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Apr 4, 2006 6:22:48 PM

uzj100: Co-Pilot; Loc: California, USA; Posts: 169, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 28, 2005; Reply to: John H

Re: Setting off from cold.

Water temp comes up first, oil takes longer. Manual cautions against higher revs until oil temp at 200. Maybe take a little longer route to work? Personally, I never hit higher revs until oil is at 200. Others may feel differently?

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Apr 4, 2006 6:41:22 PM

iia: Pilot; Loc: Canada; Posts: 342, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 24, 2004; Reply to: uzj100

Re: Setting off from cold.

1. True.
2. I see it as full throtte is ok but not over 4k or may be 4.5k rpm.
3. oil temp is better guideline.

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Apr 4, 2006 6:42:14 PM

devo: Veteran; Loc: NY , United States; Posts: 1107, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 31, 2006; Reply to: John H

Re: Setting off from cold.

Quote:
John H said:
I've seen many posts on several threads that advocate the following:

1) Never warm up the engine at idle i.e. start up - move off. (the manual supports this.)

2) Don't floor it until the oil temp is up to normal.

3) Don't floor it until the water temp is up to normal.

My question is - how important is it to get water and oil temps right up before engaging in some spirited driving?

You see, although I live in the country, it's only an 8 mile trip to town which is exactly where my temps get up to normal, same on the trip back! There are some super lanes for driving in between but am loathe to take full advantage for the above reasons.

Any advice would be gratefully received.

I warm my car gently by driving it until the OIL temp. is about 180-200 degrees F. I have previously read, somewhwere, that the ideal oil temp. is about 180. I would suggest keeping the revs below 4000 rpms until the temp reaches at least 150 and would keep the revs below 5000 until it hits at least 180. And, of course, light throttle inputs until at least 180. I, personnal, will not go full throttle or to red line until 200, like someone else has posted. In addtion to the engine temps, keep in mind that the diff. and tranny need a warm-up too, although, not as lengthy. During the warm-up process, I also temporarily reduce throttle input after moderate throttle because this will suck more oil into the cylinders. It may not be necessary, but is sure won't hurt either.
I, too, would consider a longer drive to or back from work. Not only will you have the desired warm-up but you'll be ridding the engine of more condensation operating the engine longer after it's warmed to operating temp.

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Apr 4, 2006 6:48:04 PM

Hurst: Veteran; Loc: Potomac, MD; Posts: 1255, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 15, 2005; Reply to: John H

Re: Setting off from cold.

Quote:
John H said:

My question is - how important is it to get water and oil temps right up before engaging in some spirited driving?

I would never floor the car unless the oil is up to temp. It's a matter of engine integrity and how much you'll have to worry about it in the long run especially. For high-strung NA engines its even a bigger worry.

Treat it like it deserves!

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Apr 4, 2006 7:41:57 PM

RAKLAW: Co-Pilot; Loc: Westchester, NY; Posts: 233, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 6, 2005; Reply to: Hurst

Re: Setting off from cold.

Worst thing you could ever do to an engine other than running with no oil is to full throtle before oil at operating temp.

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Apr 4, 2006 7:44:07 PM

rhino: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Island , Saint Lucia; Posts: 2875, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 26, 2006; Reply to: Hurst

Re: Setting off from cold.

It takes 8 mile to get the oil temp to normal??? Wow does that have to do with the outside temp being cold?

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Apr 4, 2006 8:47:05 PM

iia: Pilot; Loc: Canada; Posts: 342, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 24, 2004; Reply to: rhino

Re: Setting off from cold.

Just curious, why full throttle below some rpm (like 4k) is not good for cold engine as my thinking is full throttle meanly put more gas into the engine!?

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Apr 4, 2006 8:53:36 PM

Dan L: Expert; Loc: Santa Barbara, CA , United States; Posts: 1957, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 2, 2006; Reply to: iia

Re: Setting off from cold.

It took me 20 miles to get my air cooled turbo up to operating temps before I felt I could punch it. As a result, I had an incredibly high service life with that engine. I recognize the problem when you live essentially too close to work. (I have that problem here now, working 5.0 miles from the house). But, get over the temptation,--or find an alternative route to work!

dan

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Apr 4, 2006 9:06:50 PM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: Dan L

Re: Setting off from cold.

AFAIK, The reason they say don't let engine sit idle and warm up is to reduce emissions and reduce pollution.

They're not telling you that to keep your engine from wearing out (seems quite the contrary actually).

So I let mine warm up a bit just sitting there.

Also, your oil must be hot for the engine to be hot.

When only the water is hot it means ONLY the cylinders have reached operating temp. When the oil is hot it means the crank and cams and other non-explosive/burning components are hot.

You want the entire engine HOT before you do any spirited driving, that means oil AND water.

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Apr 5, 2006 1:43:13 AM

John H: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cheshire, UK , United Kingdom; Posts: 7682, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 20, 2005; Reply to: MMD

Re: Setting off from cold.

Thanks for the replies guys. It seems that it's a no-no to push hard until the oil temp is around 200F. As my reading is shown in Celsius that must mean about 93C. Strange, but there is no guide to this figure in my manual.

Am very interested in MMD's contention that no damage is caused to the engine by allowing it to warm up whilst idling. In fact, if true, that could be the answer to my problem. No disrespect to MMD, but could anyone confirm this to be true?

Thanks - John

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Apr 5, 2006 1:52:10 AM

rhino: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Island , Saint Lucia; Posts: 2875, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 26, 2006; Reply to: John H

Re: Setting off from cold.

I also need to know before I try to break my baby in, this is killing me. I read that the first 20 miles are the most important in the break in period and you should drive hard(with veried RPM's of course:) but now I find out it takes xmiles to properly warm her up. This is more complex than my first time in the back seat.

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Apr 5, 2006 12:56:23 PM

Dubliner: Junior; Loc: NY, USA; Posts: 122, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 9, 2004; Reply to: rhino

Re: Setting off from cold.

Re MMD's contention, I seem to remember reading years back (and so make no claim as to the accuracy of this hypothesis) that Mercedes Benz recommended not idling your car; the theory was that by idling, some parts of the engine can overheat and lead to thermal stresses, since other parts remain cold. If you immediately start to drive, the air flow will help prevent temperature gradients in the engine until the entire block has reached operating temperature.

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Apr 5, 2006 2:43:47 PM

John H: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cheshire, UK , United Kingdom; Posts: 7682, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 20, 2005; Reply to: uzj100

Re: Setting off from cold.

Quote:
uzj100 said:
Water temp comes up first, oil takes longer. Manual cautions against higher revs until oil temp at 200. Maybe take a little longer route to work? Personally, I never hit higher revs until oil is at 200. Others may feel differently?

Could you please advise me as to where, in the manual, it cautions against higher revs until oil temp is at 200F (or in the case of my celsius guage 93C).

I've re-read my manual from cover to cover and can find no reference to any oil temp recommendations.

Many thanks.

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Apr 5, 2006 3:00:08 PM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: John H

Re: Setting off from cold.

Quote:
John H said:

Am very interested in MMD's contention that no damage is caused to the engine by allowing it to warm up whilst idling. In fact, if true, that could be the answer to my problem. No disrespect to MMD, but could anyone confirm this to be true?

Thanks - John

Years ago you didn't idle these Porsche engines because they would carbon up. Today they will not do that. I THINK THIS IS A BIG REASON FOR THERE BEING A MYTH TODAY.

I'm just an amateur but I believe it is better for the engine to warm up a little bit than to be heading down the driveway stone cold. Unlike pushing the car down the street, there's no load, no stress in a idle situation. If engine clearances weren't critical It would be fine to drive either way, right?

Again, I think the manual says to drive off right away for pollution/emmissions reasons because ALL manuals of all cars (in usa at least) say drive off right away. It's probably a "law" to say that to meet emissions standards.

When I was a kid in the NE we'd run our cars in winter before going to school for about ten minutes to get the cabin warm. No manual said anything about "drive off right away."

Idling the engine cold in teh driveway or hot while stuck in traffic will do alot of the same "damage" if any. Idling it cold will do a specific "damage." driving with it cold will do it's kinds of "damage." I'd rather have "damage" done by idling.

BTW, no offense taken, I'm glad to be trying to figure this out with you guys. I wish I knew all the answers to all questions; then I could, for example, sleep all day and then lounge when I couldn't sleep anymore.

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Apr 5, 2006 5:06:25 PM

iia: Pilot; Loc: Canada; Posts: 342, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 24, 2004; Reply to: MMD

Re: Setting off from cold.

There shouldn't be any different between warm up at idling or drive gentely besides you've no distance gains while seating idle. No distance gains mean more pollution/emmissions.

Imagine warm up at idling (let say @ 1k rpm) take 10 mins should be equal to warm up by driving @ 1-3k rpm (avg 2k rpm) take 5 mins.

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Apr 5, 2006 5:15:05 PM

Jim48: Senior; Loc: Virginia, USA; Posts: 639, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 24, 2005; Reply to: MMD

Re: Setting off from cold.

Quote:
MMD said:
AFAIK, The reason they say don't let engine sit idle and warm up is to reduce emissions and reduce pollution.

They're not telling you that to keep your engine from wearing out (seems quite the contrary actually).

So I let mine warm up a bit just sitting there.

Also, your oil must be hot for the engine to be hot.

When only the water is hot it means ONLY the cylinders have reached operating temp. When the oil is hot it means the crank and cams and other non-explosive/burning components are hot.

You want the entire engine HOT before you do any spirited driving, that means oil AND water.

MMD,

Your's is the best advice for operating the P-car.

Race cars are the same way - you want the oil up to the proper operating temperature before pushing the engine hard.

Jim

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Apr 5, 2006 6:30:13 PM

Paul S in TX: Co-Pilot; Loc:; Posts: 259, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 20, 2002; Reply to: rhino

Re: Setting off from cold.

Quote:
rhino said:
It takes 8 mile to get the oil temp to normal??? Wow does that have to do with the outside temp being cold?

Ambient temperature will make a difference--I live in Dallas, and it takes most of my 13 mile (one way commute) for the oil temperature to reach 200 on nice moderate days. I've seen it take 20 miles to reach 200 when the temperature's in the 30's fahrenheit.

The paradox--996's didn't have an oil temperature guage, and I usually drove easy for a little after the water temperature got up to normal, but certainly not for a total of 10-15 miles like I generally have to for the 997 oil temperature to get to 200.

Definitely take longer trips, or as I will do tonight, the long way home--I am 3 miles short of 2000 miles and I have been a good boy, having only been up to about 5500 RPM's. Tonight, I'm gonna let that X51 loose (after it's good and up to temperature)

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Apr 5, 2006 8:13:24 PM

devo: Veteran; Loc: NY , United States; Posts: 1107, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 31, 2006; Reply to: John H

Re: Setting off from cold.

Quote:
John H said:
Thanks for the replies guys. It seems that it's a no-no to push hard until the oil temp is around 200F. As my reading is shown in Celsius that must mean about 93C. Strange, but there is no guide to this figure in my manual.

Am very interested in MMD's contention that no damage is caused to the engine by allowing it to warm up whilst idling. In fact, if true, that could be the answer to my problem. No disrespect to MMD, but could anyone confirm this to be true?

Thanks - John

I would NOT warm the engine while idling. AS previously posted, the tranny and diff. need to be warmed up also. This won't happen idling for an indefinate period in your garage.
Some have posted that you can apply full throttle up to 4000 rpms when cold. I would never do this. Simply put, do not apply heavy/FULL throttle to a cold engine, whatever, the rpm and keep the revs low. Your engine doesn't care how long your drive to work is or what the ambient temp. is. Is does care that the oil temp. is close to 200.
This obviously applies to the break-in period also, whether or not the first 20 miles are the most critical. Even if they are, your engine better be fully warmed first, even if that took 19 miles to achieve.

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Apr 5, 2006 8:32:18 PM

rhino: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Island , Saint Lucia; Posts: 2875, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 26, 2006; Reply to: devo

Re: Setting off from cold.

What about three to five minutes idling before starting the warm up drive?

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Apr 5, 2006 9:03:31 PM

devo: Veteran; Loc: NY , United States; Posts: 1107, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 31, 2006; Reply to: rhino

Re: Setting off from cold.

Quote:
rhino said:
What about three to five minutes idling before starting the warm up drive?

Personally, I would only allow two-three minutes if it was very cold. For example, today it was 27 degrees f, so I allowed the engine to run for a couple of minutes first, then I drove slowly until the temps rose. Typically, I drive immediately, thus warming the engine while driving.
I can not comment on the reason(s) why the manual suggests this and am not informed enough on the subject to refute what someone else posted regarding their belief that this is to reduce emissions. I would believe there is more to it than purely emissions, (e.g. oil pressure, etc...) but it is purely speculation on my behalf. (The engine does warm quicker while the car is moving.)
For me, unless I had irrefuttable data to support the static warming, I would do like the manual says. It certainly won't hurt the car.

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Apr 5, 2006 9:06:25 PM

devo: Veteran; Loc: NY , United States; Posts: 1107, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 31, 2006; Reply to: rhino

Re: Setting off from cold.

Quote:
rhino said:
What about three to five minutes idling before starting the warm up drive?

Also, if you are "breaking-in" the engine, I would most certainly drive the car immediately. I believe excessively idling a new engine is not good either.

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Apr 5, 2006 11:11:26 PM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: rhino

Re: Setting off from cold.

Quote:
rhino said:
What about three to five minutes idling before starting the warm up drive?

Yeah, when it's cold outside, that's what I'm thinking. Just enough time to clean windshield or dump the garbage. Then drive away slowly etc.

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Apr 6, 2006 12:07:50 AM

GA997S: Veteran; Loc: Athens, Georgia, USA; Posts: 1059, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 19, 2005; Reply to: MMD

Re: Setting off from cold.

I just crank it and go... I do, however, keep it below the redline until I'm out of the driveway.

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Apr 6, 2006 6:27:44 AM

john999s: Senior; Loc: Hessen, Germany , Germany; Posts: 630, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 10, 2005; Reply to: GA997S

Re: Setting off from cold.

I start and drive it straight away, use up to 4 until oil is warm and then everything it has

But that limiter is hard in Sport mode

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Apr 6, 2006 8:52:03 AM

Futch: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: EU , United Kingdom; Posts: 4759, Gallery; Registered on: May 14, 2002; Reply to: John H

Re: Setting off from cold.

Quote:
John H said:
I've seen many posts on several threads that advocate the following:

1) Never warm up the engine at idle i.e. start up - move off. (the manual supports this.)

2) Don't floor it until the oil temp is up to normal.

3) Don't floor it until the water temp is up to normal.

Hi John,
Didn't know about point 1, actually, I always let my car idle a bit before setting off, like a minute of two.
2 and 3 are indeed critical, I use the oil temp and an indicator and don't drive past 3000 rpm til it's warm enough.
Sorry about your short trip then.

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Apr 6, 2006 11:27:01 AM

devo: Veteran; Loc: NY , United States; Posts: 1107, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 31, 2006; Reply to: John H

Re: Setting off from cold.

There's a reason that Porsche's M-3 has indicator lights on the tach., which represent engine rpm limitations during warm-up. As far as pulling out of the drive way and letting her rip; well that's just, oh let me choose my words carefully; uhm

...creative???

. Of course, others may call it

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Apr 6, 2006 2:51:52 PM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: devo

Re: Setting off from cold.

Quote:
devo said:
There's a reason that Porsche's M-3 has indicator lights on the tach., which represent engine rpm limitations during warm-up.

You mean BMW's M3, right? Freaks me out because on my 04 M3 with Sequential Manual Gearbox: you put the thing in "auto mode" and the car won't upshift when it's cold!!! IOW, it seems very unwise and bad but the computer likes the cold engine to rev really high before it will shift into second. So I'm going down the driveway at 3500-4000 and the stone cold engine/tranny still won't change gears.

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Apr 6, 2006 8:01:05 PM

devo: Veteran; Loc: NY , United States; Posts: 1107, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 31, 2006; Reply to: MMD

Re: Setting off from cold.

Quote:
MMD said:
Quote:
devo said:
There's a reason that Porsche's M-3 has indicator lights on the tach., which represent engine rpm limitations during warm-up. [/quote

You mean BMW's M3, right? Freaks me out because on my 04 M3 with Sequential Manual Gearbox: you put the thing in "auto mode" and the car won't upshift when it's cold!!! IOW, it seems very unwise and bad but the computer likes the cold engine to rev really high before it will shift into second. So I'm going down the driveway at 3500-4000 and the stone cold engine/tranny still won't change gears.

Didn't you know that Porsche has introduced a M-3; sorry for the typo, yes I did mean BMW. My BMW M-3 was a stick. I do not have any experiences with the SMG II. I would imagine what you experiencing is a cold tranny. Your SMG equipped M has the tach indicator lights, too, right?

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Apr 7, 2006 11:07:30 AM

John H: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cheshire, UK , United Kingdom; Posts: 7682, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 20, 2005; Reply to: Futch

Re: Setting off from cold.

Quote:
Fanch said:
Quote:
John H said:
I've seen many posts on several threads that advocate the following:

1) Never warm up the engine at idle i.e. start up - move off. (the manual supports this.)

2) Don't floor it until the oil temp is up to normal.

3) Don't floor it until the water temp is up to normal.

Hi John,
Didn't know about point 1, actually, I always let my car idle a bit before setting off, like a minute of two.
2 and 3 are indeed critical, I use the oil temp and an indicator and don't drive past 3000 rpm til it's warm enough.

Still can't find any reference in my UK manual to any recommendations re oil temperature.

Are there any in manuals from other countries?

If the oil temperature is so critical why is this the first P-car to have a gauge that measures it?

Interpretations on this thread seem somewhat varied.

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