28.04.2013 20:23:07
nberry:
The 991GT3 also has the push pull feature. I posted the question because there is no way a human can shift that fast using a clutch.
Thats no the push/pull he is refering to, the Cup uses a completely different box, its a six speed true up/down secuential like those found on sportbikes or F1 cars, and the PDK is just an traditional H box that has been automated. They have nothing in common.
28.04.2013 21:01:18
28.04.2013 21:25:49
"The power of the engine is transmitted to the rear axle by a racing clutch and a newly developed Porsche six-speed sequential gearbox with mechanical slip differential. The electropneumatic paddle shift system makes gear changes even faster and more efficient."
Porsche 991 GT3 Cup: Technical Details -- Video Link
28.04.2013 21:45:48
nberry:
I realize the Cup box is different but the GT3 box uses the gear shift handle the same as the Cup box
Yes, so does my Audi Q5 with dual-clucth gearbox, but that doesn't make it similar to the Cup's I sure the PDK will probably be the best auto on a streetcar, although there are other considerations besides shift-speed, but the Cup's is on a hole other ball game with nothing in comon (including sound and feel), after all its logical, its a racear
The PDK is nothing like a "traditional H" - it has 2 clutches and gear drive shafts each with half the gears and the computer predicts and preselects the next gear needed so power is not interrupted as one clutch disengages and the other engages. That is what the GT3 has. It was developed a long time ago by Porsche for racing,
The single clutch sequential gearbox has become the norm in race cars. I suppose it is less complex and lighter than PDK, but also uses computers and electromechanical actuators to do the engaging and engine management, It is unburdened by the need for gentle shifts for sure.
A difference between the GT3 and the Carrera PDK, is that in the GT3 when using the gear lever to change gear manually, the direction is reversed. You push for - and pull for +, opposite to Carrera (and Panamera). This will satisfy track drivers.
"Form follows function"
29.04.2013 19:41:46
***** First Drive: 2014 Porsche 911 GT3 ***** (Road & Track)
29.04.2013 20:07:12
29.04.2013 20:13:56
nberry:
Faint praise from a manual shift writer. He tried very hard not to like the car and that came through loud and clear.
So? There are a few of us troglodytes that enjoy the art of driving versus the art of engineered engineering prowess for the sake of computer controlled quickness.
29.04.2013 20:27:36
Your post is an indication of your lack of knowledge regarding using sequential transmissions in performance driving. If anything you need to be a better driver. You enter and exit turns faster and hit higher speeds quicker. Using a manual only slows down the entire racing experience very much like training wheels.
BTW, I suspect all professional race car drivers would disagree with you as well.
29.04.2013 21:05:07
nberry:
Your post is an indication of your lack of knowledge regarding using sequential transmissions in performance driving. If anything you need to be a better driver. You enter and exit turns faster and hit higher speeds quicker. Using a manual only slows down the entire racing experience very much like training wheels.
BTW, I suspect all professional race car drivers would disagree with you as well.
One is not talking about setting a fast lap, instead one is talking about the personal satisfaction one receives from a well-executed toe-and-heel downshift or the careful positioning of the car at the apex of a turn.
Professional drivers get paid for only one thing: Going fast enough to win races. So the metrics between a professional driver and a sports car/driving enthusiast are often mutually exclusive. However, for those lacking in hand-eye coordination or the bon vivant poseur computerized controls help fulfill that Walter Mitty milieu.
29.04.2013 21:06:24
Without debating whether PAG is actually right or not, I read this article as an attempt by the writer to decide whether PAG has answered the purists' concerns in the new car with the conclusion that the writer is not persuaded by the new 991 GT3 solely in relation to the decision not to offer a manual transmission but instead only a PDK version.
997.1 C2S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red
29.04.2013 23:46:20
easy_rider911:
Without debating whether PAG is actually right or not, I read this article as an attempt by the writer to decide whether PAG has answered the purists' concerns in the new car with the conclusion that the writer is not persuaded by the new 991 GT3 solely in relation to the decision not to offer a manual transmission but instead only a PDK version.
Do we define a purist as one who demands manual as the only way he/she can have fun driving? If so, he/she is not a purist but someone who either has not driven a sequential or does not know how to.
I recognize some are from the old school and like to masturbate using the clutch and gear shift. Fine but don't tell the new technology it isn't fun until you have tried and mastered it. I have driven/owned Porsche's and Ferrari's that were manual and later PDK/F!. To me there is more involvement in extracting optimal performance from the car when you can DRIVE IT and shift at appropriate times. Only professionals come close to doing that with manuals.
--
Gents. I read the article twice 5 hours ago.
Firstly, the test drive was a few laps of a track at "highway speeds". Obviously the tester was restricted to go any faster than perhaps 70-90 kmph. I doubt there's much you can learn about the suspension, shifting and handling at those speeds on a race track.
Secondly a race track is super smooth. Any steering feel would be quite different than on the road.
Thirdly, this motor noter clearly had it in for the GT3 regards transmission choice form the get go.
In light of all above the article didnt read so bad. The engine sounds good, the 4WS is non obtrusive, handling is positive and steering feedback even on the smooth track at low speed sounded positive too. Clearly the issue with "no stick" was not going to go away with this writer on such a short accompanies drive.
There must have been an embargo on this being released because it seems it may have been written over a month ago using the Geneva PCCB equipped show car.
nberry:
Manual or PDK.
*Flame Suit on*
Manual
PDK is best suited in an overweight Cayenne / Panamera (S) (which I got to drive for couple of days before my Cayenne was fixed and enjoyed it, but in the end it's like any other automatic when it's in boring automatic mode) I hated the up/down shift buttons and still prefer paddle shifts.
No one demands a manual on a Ferrari supersports, but there are some people demanding manual on Porsche and even BMWs
I cannot understand the premise of their wish, since modern DCTs are faster than manual gear changes and allow the driver to drive concentrate more on his braking and car control which count for speed and efficiency rather than waste time and energy on the clutch pedal and the stick.
Most of the so called "purists" originate from the USA and IMO there is a sociological reason for this. USA was the first country where the easy but slow auto gearboxes were widely used and I believe one of the first countries where you could get a "auto only" driving license, for girls and wimps . Therefore, because of these prejudices someone who still drives manual considers himself as the more macho man and the more gifted driver.
I grew up with manuals and I can drive a manual very very well. But with modern technology the traditional gearbox gives no advantages at all. It is redundant museum piece.
--
"Form follows function"
reginos:
Most of the so called "purists" originate from the USA and IMO there is a sociological reason for this. USA was the first country where the easy but slow auto gearboxes were widely used and I believe one of the first countries where you could get a "auto only" driving license, for girls and wimps . Therefore, because of these prejudices someone who still drives manual considers himself as the more macho man and the more gifted driver.
Spot on!
30.04.2013 07:20:53
CGX car nut:
nberry:
Your post is an indication of your lack of knowledge regarding using sequential transmissions in performance driving. If anything you need to be a better driver. You enter and exit turns faster and hit higher speeds quicker. Using a manual only slows down the entire racing experience very much like training wheels.
BTW, I suspect all professional race car drivers would disagree with you as well.
One is not talking about setting a fast lap, instead one is talking about the personal satisfaction one receives from a well-executed toe-and-heel downshift or the careful positioning of the car at the apex of a turn.
Professional drivers get paid for only one thing: Going fast enough to win races. So the metrics between a professional driver and a sports car/driving enthusiast are often mutually exclusive. However, for those lacking in hand-eye coordination or the bon vivant poseur computerized controls help fulfill that Walter Mitty milieu.
+1
I had a lot of fun driving manual but after being "forced" (my second 911 Turbo (a 997) had Tiptronic because A. it was faster with Tiptronic and B. I thought my wife would drive this car too) to drive Tiptronic, I learned the benefits of concentrating on the driving, not the shifting. Yes, it may be more fun to drive a manual but on the other hand, it is actually ever more fun to achieve better track times and to put some of those behind you who made fun of you because of the auto tranny.
It is kind of a personal preference if someone prefers manual or PDK but PDK has evolved a lot and I can have a lot of fun with PDK, even in auto mode, which allows me to concentrate more on my driving than shifting.
For some people, record lap times may not be important but for others, they are. Achieving these numbers with a manual becomes almost impossible (same stock car).
RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4
RC:
I had a lot of fun driving manual but after being "forced" (my second 911 Turbo (a 997) had Tiptronic because A. it was faster with Tiptronic and B. I thought my wife would drive this car too) to drive Tiptronic, I learned the benefits of concentrating on the driving, not the shifting. Yes, it may be more fun to drive a manual but on the other hand, it is actually ever more fun to achieve better track times and to put some of those behind you who made fun of you because of the auto tranny.
It is kind of a personal preference if someone prefers manual or PDK but PDK has evolved a lot and I can have a lot of fun with PDK, even in auto mode, which allows me to concentrate more on my driving than shifting.
For some people, record lap times may not be important but for others, they are. Achieving these numbers with a manual becomes almost impossible (same stock car).
Quite right. This debate about manual vs PDK is silly becasue it boils down to the subjective preference of the driver, particularly if they are an enthusiast. Poseurs and luddites will naturally be drawn to one camp or the other but we shouldn't let them muddy the debate. Where I think Porsche has gone wrong is by not catering to both camps.
Regarding the article, the writer clearly prefers manual so a PDK car is never going to completely win him over. Otherwise the review was very positive and even the steering came for faint praise! But I think I will wait for production model reviews from the likes of Evo and Pistonheads before drawing too many conclusions.
Gen II Cayman S
there is even more "fun" around the corner - I heard that the "next thing" is now shifting will be linked to the GPS Map Navi - meaning the car will know what the road in front will look alike and shift for you accordingly up or down at perfect moments - and I am sure that will be topped by the "automated braking fun" allowing to brake much later than a human would do setting even better times so you can leave those in yr wake having only opted for the GPS shifting.....
30.04.2013 10:27:33
I would keep the front axle lifting system for speed humps, entry/exit to car parks etc.
I would keep cruise control ... it's handy for long drives to get to track days/circuits etc.
Cosmetic stuff is purely subjective.
997.1 C2S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red
30.04.2013 11:12:19
easy_rider911:
I would keep the front axle lifting system for speed humps, entry/exit to car parks etc.
I would keep cruise control ... it's handy for long drives to get to track days/circuits etc.
Cosmetic stuff is purely subjective.
Front lift is a must...you never know when you need it.
RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4