Crown

An interesting opinion from the BBC...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/17299158

"Things turn out best for people who make the best of the way things turn out."

Lauda at only #9 and Piquet at #16 behind Hamilton!! 

I think it favours current drivers like Vettel, Alonso and Hamilton more than it should.

"Form follows function"

and Vettel #8  

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Reality sucks eh

I have no problems with this list. Schumi #4 and Vettel #8 (for now). BTW, if he takes his 3rd next week he'll have taken 3/5 championships. I don't know why you're against him so much or RBR for that matter... your judgement towards this whole team is clouded because of Vettel? Is it the #1 finger? Sure he's made mistakes but he is YOUNG! I think his drive and hunger as well as cheer pace is unmatched among the F1 drivers grid. Did you hear how devastated he was last weekend when Hamilton passed (in a car with the same race pace btw so no RBR is 2sec faster than the rest of the field...)

Meanwhile Alsonso had to be put on the right side with very questionable sportsmanship to enable him coming in on the podium at all... His pace wasn't good at all if you compare with Massa... just saying. I hope that Alonso is 1 point short, so that the tactics in Austin make it that more more bittersweet.

I like the list - and funnily Lauda made a comment on TV on the 3rd for Vettel possibly equalizing him - that was very very true in saying - you cannot compare this to old times (titles) as we only had 12 or so races a year.

So besides that those guys were true heros driving the hell out of their engines and "unsafe" aluminium chassis - basically risking their lives in every race - I have much more respect from 3 titles of Lauda than any "new kid on the block" with their Playstation-car's where +80% of the success is design and very little drivers influence - it's just statistics....

Couldn't agree more

Atzporsche:

Reality sucks eh

I have no problems with this list. Schumi #4 and Vettel #8 (for now). BTW, if he takes his 3rd next week he'll have taken 3/5 championships. I don't know why you're against him so much or RBR for that matter... your judgement towards this whole team is clouded because of Vettel? Is it the #1 finger? Sure he's made mistakes but he is YOUNG! I think his drive and hunger as well as cheer pace is unmatched among the F1 drivers grid.

My problem is that he is winning these three years because he has had a vastly superior car than the rest and has yet to prove himself as andriver on the level of Alonso, Hamilton or even Kimi. The only time he didn'y have the car advantage was at the first half of the season and look at his performance then, on the other hand look at what Alonso was able to achieve with his Ferrari, the slowest of the bunch and the races he put like Valencia. Thats another level of driver.

Did you hear how devastated he was last weekend when Hamilton passed (in a car with the same race pace btw so no RBR is 2sec faster than the rest of the field...)

I wouldn't call that devastated, all we could all hear on the radio a spoiled brat used to leave overybody behind with his superior car, being fustrated because of a Hamilton was able to over take hims with DRS, when the previous laps he defended against Hamilton's overtake by using his DRS from backmarkers he luckly found in front on the straights during those laps, until that lap. Thats the Vettel that always comes out when things do go perfectly for him and is mister nice and funny guy.

His car was the fastest in all practices all weekend (again), got him on pole with a 1 &3 for RBR in qualy only because Hamilton managed to stick his Mac between the RBR's, started from position one, and yet at the end he came second. Alonso was barely being able to make the Q3 with the poor performing Ferrari, started from seventh next to a Force India, and yet he still makes the podium at the end of the race with that car.

Meanwhile Alsonso had to be put on the right side with very questionable sportsmanship to enable him coming in on the podium at all... His pace wasn't good at all if you compare with Massa... just saying.

You do realise that Massa and Alonso used a different front diffuser and the one Alonso used (newer version) proved to work worse at the track, and thats the reason Massas had a faster pace than Alonso for the first time in three years.

I hope that Alonso is 1 point short, so that the tactics in Austin make it that more more bittersweet.

Thats plain hipocracy, those team order desitions are made by all teams, including RBR with Vettel and Webber (the " not bad for the second driver" guy), the only difference is that the italians are completely blunt and open say it ouloud when they do it while others try to hide them and do them with more secrecy, even in radio conversations the Ferrai tyema hold nothing bakc, instead of using coded frases like other teams. You think Webber got to try the same new parts as Vettel these seasons? or the favored choice of race tactics and order pit stops for example? remember the front wing scandal? Another thing would be if they would not be allowed, then that would be a different matter.

Massa has done such a bad season he has not helped his team at all, contribuing a ridicule amount of points for the team for the constructor'sn title (very important for the teams for revenue), and not being able to help once the team's driver's championship chances by placing his car in front of the competition and taking points of the rivals, and he is fighting with grosjean and rosberg in the championship table....after three seasons like that being worthless to the team, and Alosno fighting for the championship at this point of the season with only two races left and a vastly inferior car, giving up his grid spot to up Alonso one place is the least he could do to earn the fat paycheck he is getting from the Ferrari, and still being held as a second driver inspite his mediocre season after season.

But the funny thing about that comparison list is that you cannot comare drivers like that from such different ages, Fangio's time was completely differnt and had a car much better than the rest, with little competition on those times. Like the fact that Bjorn points to, for example, Ascari is listed down yet I would dare any of the top today drivers to do what he did in a time with a car with drum brakes, no seatblet and a leather helmet, not to mention how much they took into account statistical results without weighing those results with the actual circumstances of the car's they were driving, its competitiveness, etc ........ that sort of comparison ttable should make any F1 chuckle when they look at it and take it only for entertainment value.

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John H:

An interesting opinion from the BBC...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/17299158

An objective ranking is easy to obtain... Just rank the drivers by their Championship titles and you are there. The rest is purely subjective and of no use (unless to fill some pages in a magazine ).

Of course, the ranking needs to be done from time to time.

MKSGR:

John H:

An interesting opinion from the BBC...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/17299158

An objective ranking is easy to obtain... Just rank the drivers by their Championship titles and you are there. The rest is purely subjective and of no use (unless to fill some pages in a magazine ).

Of course, the ranking needs to be done from time to time.

The Number of titles must be loaded by a factor relating to the difficulty of securing each title. For example the titles of Rosberg, Vileneuve, Hill, Button, Prost's 4rth and some of Schumacher's were very easy. Other titles were very hard.

Moreover, the personality of a driver counts for a lot and the legacy he leaves behind. For me the top F1 driver is Niki Lauda.

"Form follows function"

BjoernB:

I like the list - and funnily Lauda made a comment on TV on the 3rd for Vettel possibly equalizing him - that was very very true in saying - you cannot compare this to old times (titles) as we only had 12 or so races a year.

So besides that those guys were true heros driving the hell out of their engines and "unsafe" aluminium chassis - basically risking their lives in every race - I have much more respect from 3 titles of Lauda than any "new kid on the block" with their Playstation-car's where +80% of the success is design and very little drivers influence - it's just statistics....

Another element of great difficulty in the past was the manual gearbox with a clutch pedal and using one hand to change gears under great pressure. Many races were won or lost on that parameter alone.

It goes without saying that I wholeheartedly agree with  your praise of Lauda.

--

"Form follows function"

reginos:

MKSGR:

John H:

An interesting opinion from the BBC...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/17299158

An objective ranking is easy to obtain... Just rank the drivers by their Championship titles and you are there. The rest is purely subjective and of no use (unless to fill some pages in a magazine ).

Of course, the ranking needs to be done from time to time.

The Number of titles must be loaded by a factor relating to the difficulty of securing each title. For example the titles of Rosberg, Vileneuve, Hill, Button, Prost's 4rth and some of Schumacher's were very easy. Other titles were very hard.

Moreover, the personality of a driver counts for a lot and the legacy he leaves behind. For me the top F1 driver is Niki Lauda.

How can we judge whether it was "harder" or "less hard" to obtain a title? Fact is all drivers give their best all the time. Achieving a title is always very difficult. And chance always plays a major role. You could even argue: a tight win is less valuable as the chances are much higher in these cases that luck played the major role (and not talent of the driver).

All subjective - only the statistics can be read without any personal judgement necessary 

You know the phrase, "lies, damned lies and statistics". Statistics can often be used to support weak arguments. 

"Form follows function"

My top 20 would be:

1) Clark
2) Senna
3) Alonso
4) Schumacher (1st career)
5) Fangio
6) Prost
7) Stewart
8) Vettel
9) Lauda
10) Ascari
11) Hakkinen
12) Hill (Graham)
13) Mansell
14) Hamilton
15) Piquet
16) Brabham
17) Fittipaldi
18) Rindt
19) Surtees
20) Button

Honourable mention: Nuvolari.

Moss and Villeneuve (Gilles) would not make my list.

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997.1 C2S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Formula_One_World_Drivers'_Champions

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tazio_Nuvolari

997.1 C2S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red

reginos:

You know the phrase, "lies, damned lies and statistics". Statistics can often be used to support weak arguments. 

What the bank account is for the enterpreneur (i.e., the "objective" benchmark for economic success) the championship titles are for F1 drivers... You can count them  Of course, there are then also several personal rankings like the one in the magazine 

MKSGR:

reginos:

You know the phrase, "lies, damned lies and statistics". Statistics can often be used to support weak arguments. 

What the bank account is for the enterpreneur (i.e., the "objective" benchmark for economic success) the championship titles are for F1 drivers... You can count them  Of course, there are then also several personal rankings like the one in the magazine - the sport would probably be dead if people did not have their personal preferences/preconceived ideas etc.  However, these personal rankings are - by definition - only "correct" for the individual who drew them up in the first place 

easy_rider911:

My top 20 would be:

1) Clark
2) Senna
3) Alonso
4) Schumacher (1st career)
5) Fangio
6) Prost
7) Stewart
8) Vettel
9) Lauda
10) Ascari
11) Hakkinen
12) Hill (Graham)
13) Mansell
14) Hamilton
15) Piquet
16) Brabham
17) Fittipaldi
18) Rindt
19) Surtees
20) Button

Honourable mention: Nuvolari.

Moss and Villeneuve (Gilles) would not make my list.

My personal ranking is as follows:

Lauda

Prost

Schumacher

Senna

Piquet

JYS

Fittipaldi

Hakkinen

Gilles Villeneuve (the only non-champion)

All the rest are indifferent to me and many are forgettable. Also, I cannot rate pre-70s drivers because I have no tangible experience of their races neither live or through extensive video footage.

Active drivers like ALO, HAM and VET are all promising candidates on probation until the end of their careers. Schumacher although still active is rated on the basis of his Benetton and Ferrari years.

"Form follows function"

MKSGR:

How can we judge whether it was "harder" or "less hard" to obtain a title? Fact is all drivers give their best all the time. Achieving a title is always very difficult. And chance always plays a major role. You could even argue: a tight win is less valuable as the chances are much higher in these cases that luck played the major role (and not talent of the driver).

All subjective - only the statistics can be read without any personal judgement necessary 

Interesting take on the subject. 

However, as RT would be less interesting without some healthy debate about F1 drivers and since I personally despise statistics...

... moving over here... 

Carlos from Spain:

My problem is that he is winning these three years because he has had a vastly superior car than the rest and has yet to prove himself as andriver on the level of Alonso, Hamilton or even Kimi. The only time he didn'y have the car advantage was at the first half of the season and look at his performance then, on the other hand look at what Alonso was able to achieve with his Ferrari, the slowest of the bunch and the races he put like Valencia. Thats another level of driver.

Carlos,

you might´ve figured that I very much appreciate Alonso´s attitude and driving style so you don´t have to "convince" me of his talent. However I am a bit surprised how much people doubt Vettel´s talent on here. Interesting enough, both have followed a very similar path starting with karting at a very young age, an entry into and success in F1 in terms of biological age and a very good car that helped them to win their championship titles. All the complaints you make about Vettel have been circulating about Alonso as well, e.g. being favoured by Briatore, being a very picky character when it comes to his position in the team, only being fast when the car shows a solid performance. Whether this is true or not, I guess it comes without a doubt that his performance in the last couple of years have been impressive even in mediocre cars. I still believe a lot of that is due to his age and experience in F1. Vettel is six years younger than him which, in F1 terms, is quite a bit. Give him a few more years to develop personally and as a driver and we talk again. That doesn´t mean that I discredit Vettel´s current achievements, rather give him more time to further proof his talent.

I followed a radio interview with Norbert Haug on Sunday in which he stated that any accusations that Vettel only won due to a superior car would be nonsense. You don´t win two championship titles that easily. In my personal opinion, most people do not realize how small the performance margins are between those top drivers and that so many things can change the hierarchy immensely. All of those top drivers have had their dilemma with a more-than-equal rival within the team, Alonso with Hamilton, Hamilton with Button so I am curious if Vettel will encounter something similiar during his career. Webber, obviously being a very nice chap, is only occasionally faster than him.

Something else that is often forgotten is Vettel´s performance prior to his seat at Red Bull or outside of F1. I also often ask myself why people consider Newey to be the sole reason for Red Bull´s success since, prior to Vettel, the performance of that team has been less than stellar.

These lists and ranks are foolish...

Gilles Villeneuve had no titles but he is one of the greatest f.e. Great respect to Jacky Ickx too!

Also, previously you had to make much more effort to win...

sportcars-history.com

easy_rider911:

My top 20 would be:

1) Clark
2) Senna
3) Alonso
4) Schumacher (1st career)
5) Fangio
6) Prost
7) Stewart
8) Vettel
9) Lauda
10) Ascari
11) Hakkinen
12) Hill (Graham)
13) Mansell
14) Hamilton
15) Piquet
16) Brabham
17) Fittipaldi
18) Rindt
19) Surtees
20) Button

Honourable mention: Nuvolari.

Moss and Villeneuve (Gilles) would not make my list.

No Raikkonen huh? I'd have him up in there over Hamilton I think.

The point is if you start including drivers of the Hamilton  or Raikkonen  caliber you will end up with dozens of names who had come and gone without leaving a strong legacy and who cannot be considered all time greats.  You could include Hunt, Andretti, Scheckter, Alan Jones and even non-champions who had a spectacular driving style thatbwas very popular with fans like Peterson and Arnoux. The list would be too too long.

"Form follows function"

Ferdie:

... moving over here... 

Carlos from Spain:

My problem is that he is winning these three years because he has had a vastly superior car than the rest and has yet to prove himself as andriver on the level of Alonso, Hamilton or even Kimi. The only time he didn'y have the car advantage was at the first half of the season and look at his performance then, on the other hand look at what Alonso was able to achieve with his Ferrari, the slowest of the bunch and the races he put like Valencia. Thats another level of driver.

Carlos,

you might´ve figured that I very much appreciate Alonso´s attitude and driving style so you don´t have to "convince" me of his talent. However I am a bit surprised how much people doubt Vettel´s talent on here. Interesting enough, both have followed a very similar path starting with karting at a very young age, an entry into and success in F1 in terms of biological age and a very good car that helped them to win their championship titles. All the complaints you make about Vettel have been circulating about Alonso as well, e.g. being favoured by Briatore, being a very picky character when it comes to his position in the team, only being fast when the car shows a solid performance. Whether this is true or not, I guess it comes without a doubt that his performance in the last couple of years have been impressive even in mediocre cars. I still believe a lot of that is due to his age and experience in F1. Vettel is six years younger than him which, in F1 terms, is quite a bit. Give him a few more years to develop personally and as a driver and we talk again. That doesn´t mean that I discredit Vettel´s current achievements, rather give him more time to further proof his talent.

I followed a radio interview with Norbert Haug on Sunday in which he stated that any accusations that Vettel only won due to a superior car would be nonsense. You don´t win two championship titles that easily. In my personal opinion, most people do not realize how small the performance margins are between those top drivers and that so many things can change the hierarchy immensely. All of those top drivers have had their dilemma with a more-than-equal rival within the team, Alonso with Hamilton, Hamilton with Button so I am curious if Vettel will encounter something similiar during his career. Webber, obviously being a very nice chap, is only occasionally faster than him.

Something else that is often forgotten is Vettel´s performance prior to his seat at Red Bull or outside of F1. I also often ask myself why people consider Newey to be the sole reason for Red Bull´s success since, prior to Vettel, the performance of that team has been less than stellar.

Couldn't agree more Ferdie!!! Very true summary. 

reginos:

BjoernB:

I like the list - and funnily Lauda made a comment on TV on the 3rd for Vettel possibly equalizing him - that was very very true in saying - you cannot compare this to old times (titles) as we only had 12 or so races a year.

So besides that those guys were true heros driving the hell out of their engines and "unsafe" aluminium chassis - basically risking their lives in every race - I have much more respect from 3 titles of Lauda than any "new kid on the block" with their Playstation-car's where +80% of the success is design and very little drivers influence - it's just statistics....

Another element of great difficulty in the past was the manual gearbox with a clutch pedal and using one hand to change gears under great pressure. Many races were won or lost on that parameter alone.

It goes without saying that I wholeheartedly agree with  your praise of Lauda.

--

"Form follows function"

Same here. I am a big Lauda fan. His career, skills, attitude and committment should rank him in any top three. His comeback in 1976 under these circumstances cannot be valued enough. Unfortunately we do not see  characters as Lauda in these times.

And I agree it is in fact difficult or impossible to compare the different ages of F1. Personally it feels as titles from 60/70/80 count a little more than the recent ones.

Exactly that's a very good summary and one I was trying to get across too. You can personally dislike someone but don't discredit his achievements and justify all his accomplishments as being merely luck.. Unless you really think anyone would have won 2 (3) championships in the RBR car you don't understand Just how tight and intense F1 truly is.    Look at Schumacher... If anything I have my issues with Hamilton and I am not surprised he went through an OC episode, but I wouldn't discredit his amazing performances, as random as they may occur. I think Alonso is a great great driver, so solid and accurate behind the wheel. Character wise I do think he's a bit whiny and high maintenance but I good fit in the Ferrari philosophy.. Funny they would put a wing on Alonso that's actually worse.. That's very bad tactics, at least compensated by questionable sportsmanship. I will say this again, yes vettel is young and has made mistakes but his drive and focus is incredible. Who knows how long his F1 career will be, but there's for sure a couple more championships in his future which is exciting. Lastly, lets not forget his incredible debut with toro rosso and his performance in Monza! 

kudryavchik:

These lists and ranks are foolish...

Gilles Villeneuve had no titles but he is one of the greatest f.e. Great respect to Jacky Ickx too!

Also, previously you had to make much more effort to win...

I would rather say: in former time you had to be more reckless/risk loving --- today you have to work much, much harder and be 110% focused in all parts of your life to make it 

Not everybody was like that in the old days. For example Lauda (again ) was the first to introduce a strict fitness regime to F1in parallel with his technical knowledge and his calculating race craft. Prost also, wasn't nicknamed "the Professor" for nothing. There were more  crazy drivers than now (the disciplinary rules were not so strict) like Hunt, de Cesaris, Pironi and many others but these have been forgotten, as drivers at least.

"Form follows function"

In the fifties and sixties F1 drivers used to race much more than the "modern F1 drivers "  and in different racing categories , take Jim Clark for example: F1 driver, Indy 500,British Touring Car Championship , Non championship GP races etc etc.   I guess they were used to the hard and dangerous work. The modern F1 drivers have to be engineers of sort  which maybe was not the case with their predecessors due to the relative lack of technology in their cars. As for the physical effort I believe it was far more demanding for Stirling Moss to drive the Mille Miglia in 1955 at the average speed of 155 Km/h for 1600 kilometers than it is today for any F1 driver to finish a 90 min race. Different times indeed but my hat goes off to them.

911 Club Coupe, 72' 911 Targa 2.4 S, 12' Audi S4 Avant

Nowadays the F1 season is longer and more testing is invloved so no time is left for othet forms of motorsport. Anyway this isn't allowed contractually in most cases I believe. See how Kubica destroyed a promissing career.

As to physical effort  I know that today drivers lose a lot of body fluids during a race. I'm not sure if that was the case in the past when uniforms were more civilian and races were shorter. The cars were more cumbersome to steer in the past but the g forces much lower .

For me the ideal F1 era was the period from the mid 70s to the mid 90s. Ferrari 312B3 and 312T to Benetton B195. Before that F1 was rather amateurish and unstructured and after that too regulated and robotic for my liking.

"Form follows function"

reginos:

Not everybody was like that in the old days. For example Lauda (again ) was the first to introduce a strict fitness regime to F1in parallel with his technical knowledge and his calculating race craft. Prost also, wasn't nicknamed "the Professor" for nothing. There were more  crazy drivers than now (the disciplinary rules were not so strict) like Hunt, de Cesaris, Pironi and many others but these have been forgotten, as drivers at least.

I know  I was a fan of Prost, never liked Senna too much. And frankly, at this time it was also not obvious to me that Senna was a better driver than Prost  How can one measure talent. This is very, very difficult, I guess.