Crown

Ferdie:

W8MM:
[...] he replied that while the PCCB rotors might be "forever" rotors in typical street use, they were pretty much wear parts if used on the track.  He went on to explain the techincal reasons for over-temp degradation and wished me well.

Interesting, never heard of this issue on the CGT but maybe most of them are not driven extensively enough on the track. You are certainly not the first one to have experienced this with PCCB rotors. Did he make any inclination whether this has to do with Porsche´s layout of the discs or can it occur with ceramic brakes from other vendors or on other brands as well? I heard that the PCCB has only a certain thickness of carbon-ceramic coating whereas some other products are (almost) solid material.

 Brake rotors like the pads are a wear item whether they are carbon ceramic or steel. So to me, it seems natural that you have to change them. The costumer just needs to be aware that they are more expensive than steel items that's all.

Having said that, if properly cooled after tracking the car, ther are also a lot more durable that steel items, for example, I have changed them only once on my 06 Carrera S with 75000km.

Never on my GT3RS with 35000 km and never on my Carrera GT with 27000 km. I don't count however the number of times I've changed pads (on average every three sessions) and I drive the hell out of my cars, the GT for example for a dozen laps of the 24h Le Mans track, brake discs are as new.

Proper cooling of the braking system is not only essential, it's capital for the preservation of your discs and pads.

But again, at the end of that day, it's a wear item.

I expect my rotors to last for 50000km on the GT, which in my opinion is very respectable.

Ferdie:

W8MM:
[...] he replied that while the PCCB rotors might be "forever" rotors in typical street use, they were pretty much wear parts if used on the track.  He went on to explain the techincal reasons for over-temp degradation and wished me well.

Interesting, never heard of this issue on the CGT but maybe most of them are not driven extensively enough on the track. You are certainly not the first one to have experienced this with PCCB rotors. Did he make any inclination whether this has to do with Porsche´s layout of the discs or can it occur with ceramic brakes from other vendors or on other brands as well? I heard that the PCCB has only a certain thickness of carbon-ceramic coating whereas some other products are (almost) solid material.

Why should the PCCB rotor wear on the CGT should be better than on a GT3RS/GT2RS? I would highly appreciate if Porsche (together with their suppliers) managed to get more durable PCCB rotors (track use) OR much lower replacement costs. Both would be fine  The current situation is not satisfactory (stating this one has to consider that Ferrari etc. has exactly the same problem, though their pelacement costs are lower than Porsche's...)

Just a sidenote - a friend of mine had to change them (carbon) on his R8 after approx. 15 track days as they were developing cracks. It cost him 26k CHF (for all four wheels though).

--

Matt C
2009 997 GT3 Mk2  / 1988 911 3.2 Conv.

Futch:

Brake rotors like the pads are a wear item whether they are carbon ceramic or steel. So to me, it seems natural that you have to change them. The costumer just needs to be aware that they are more expensive than steel items that's all.

Having said that, if properly cooled after tracking the car, ther are also a lot more durable that steel items, for example, I have changed them only once on my 06 Carrera S with 75000km.

Never on my GT3RS with 35000 km and never on my Carrera GT with 27000 km. I don't count however the number of times I've changed pads (on average every three sessions) and I drive the hell out of my cars, the GT for example for a dozen laps of the 24h Le Mans track, brake discs are as new.

Proper cooling of the braking system is not only essential, it's capital for the preservation of your discs and pads.

Futch,

I certainly agree with you but Porsche communicated their advantages in a very different way in the beginning. I am well aware that even ceramic brakes will wear off under use but, as Mike said, significantly more under heavy use than in driving conditions on public roads.

I sense that the "problem" is their lack of fading which on any car with steel rotors will cause the driver to slow down and cool the brakes. It should be allowed to ask whether Porsche give proper instructions for significant track use or, for example, install temperature sensors to control airflow and / or communicate the brake temperature to the driver.

MKSGR:

I would highly appreciate if Porsche (together with their suppliers) managed to get more durable PCCB rotors (track use) OR much lower replacement costs. Both would be fine  The current situation is not satisfactory (stating this one has to consider that Ferrari etc. has exactly the same problem, though their replacement costs are lower than Porsche's...)

Exactly my opinion. Don´t think that Ferrari will have huge gains on replacement rotors but it at least keeps customers happy.

You are right Ferdie, Porsche screwed up their communication when they realesed PCCB on the 996 GT2, now the message is very different, even on the website, they mention to have the brakes checked after each trackday (OTT IMO).

At the end of the day, they are better than steel brakes, not day and night but they are quite significantly better.

Worth the extra cost?

If you don't track your car I'd say yes, if you tack a lot, I'd say take steel brakes.

But then you'll always have idiots like me who order PCCB, to sound cool in the pub you know...

I spent 20 minutes this morning composing a response about Mov'It ceramic brake rotors and it was eaten by a "redirect loop" that oscillated between www.rennteam and www2.rennteam.  I hope I can recreate it ;(

Mike

2005 Carrera GT + 2008 Tesla Roadster +2010 Panamera Turbo + 2001 BMW Z8 + 1972 BMW 3.0 CSi +2009 Bentley Arnage T

Mike, I forgot to post after my track day this fall,  I can tell you that the Super Sports are a solid two seconds per lap faster than the PS2's  ( Grattan, MI ) With much more confidence I might add.  

Senninha:

Mike, I forgot to post after my track day this fall,  I can tell you that the Super Sports are a solid two seconds per lap faster than the PS2's  ( Grattan, MI ) With much more confidence I might add.  

Thanks for the excellent news.  When I get ready for track season in 2012, I'll be sure to mount a set of Super Sports!

The 265 size for the front tires is now available in the USA and I can see advantages in keeping the fronts at stock width while increasing the rear from 335 to 345 section width.  It seems to me that a little more rear tire width would help reduce the tendency to over-steer; since softening the rear anti-roll setting has already shown to be a good thing.

I recently had the opportunity to chat up Bobby Rahal at a local Porsche Club gala and found out that he had owned a Carrera GT for a time.  I asked him how he liked it and whether he thought they were difficult to drive at the edge.  He responded, "They over-steer like crazy."  So, it's not only my lack of driving talent that makes me want to glue down the back end of the Carrera GT even more than the roll-stiffness adjustments provide!

BTW, Bobby is a very interesting and entertaining speaker and very knowledgeable about all things Porsche.

Mike

2005 Carrera GT + 2008 Tesla Roadster +2010 Panamera Turbo + 2001 BMW Z8 + 1972 BMW 3.0 CSi +2009 Bentley Arnage T

Senninha:

Mike, I forgot to post after my track day this fall,  I can tell you that the Super Sports are a solid two seconds per lap faster than the PS2's  ( Grattan, MI ) With much more confidence I might add.  

That's great, wonder what that extrapolates to at  the Nurburging with Super Sports vs. PS2?

baron:

Senninha:

Mike, I forgot to post after my track day this fall,  I can tell you that the Super Sports are a solid two seconds per lap faster than the PS2's  ( Grattan, MI ) With much more confidence I might add.  

 

That's great, wonder what that extrapolates to at  the Nurburging with Super Sports vs. PS2?

Michelin SS are great but they're not Cup tyres.

Over the length of the Nordschleife, I'd say a 5 seconds gain is probable being conservative.

That would put the GT in the 7'25 zone. It's a good time.

Thanks.  Good to hear that the GT can still hang with the latest and greatest.

Futch:

Michelin SS are great but they're not Cup tyres.

Over the length of the Nordschleife, I'd say a 5 seconds gain is probable being conservative.

That would put the GT in the 7'25 zone. It's a good time.

That sounds very encouraging.  Thanks for the info  

Mike

2005 Carrera GT + 2008 Tesla Roadster +2010 Panamera Turbo + 2001 BMW Z8 + 1972 BMW 3.0 CSi +2009 Bentley Arnage T

Just to resurrect an old question with new developments:

Newly Developed Tires for the Porsche Carrera GT

 

Michelin Pilot Super Sport tires with Porsche-specific "N0" designation

 

(16 August 2013)

 

Atlanta. Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche AG, based in Stuttgart, has developed a new tire for the Carrera GT in partnership with tire manufacturer Michelin. The new tire once again noticeably enhances the handling of the 1,270 versions of the super sports car built between 2003 and 2006. The new Michelin Pilot Super Sport tire, which now replaces the current Pilot Sport PS2 tire on the Carrera GT, brings together the findings of ten years' worth of tire development to give drivers of the Carrera GT noticeably improved handling, even faster lap times and a more harmonious driving experience overall.

 

Drivers will even see benefits in relation to the stability of the Porsche model at its top speed of 330 km/h, as well as its behavior at high lateral acceleration speeds. This is all down to the new structure of the tire, which, of course, features the Porsche specification "N0" on the sidewalls. The tread compound of the Pilot Super Sport tire, which is manufactured on the same production line as Michelin racing tires, is based on "dual-compound" technology. With this technology, different rubber compounds are used for the inside and outside of the tread. This concept offers maximum grip on bends and highly precise steering behavior. What's more, the belt is made from an especially durable mix of aramid fibers, which are five times lighter than steel but deliver the same tensile strength. In addition, the variable contact area distributes the pressure evenly across the tire, meaning as much of the tread as possible is always in contact with the asphalt under any driving conditions.

 

The new Carrera GT tires are available now in 265/35 ZR 19 98Y "N0" and 335/30 ZR 20 108Y "N0" dimensions. Alongside optimized performance criteria, these tires offer the cost-effective side-effect of increased mileage: Compared to the previous tire, mileage is up to 10% higher on normal roads, and even as much as 20% higher when the tires are used on tough race tracks. The new tire also improves braking performance, showing that, even after ten years, Porsche is still working just as hard to look after drivers of its older models as it does to look after drivers of its new vehicles.

Mike

Carrera GT + Tesla Roadster 1.5 & Model S + Panamera Turbo +  BMW Z8 + BMW 3.0 CSi + Bentley Arnage T + GT3 RS 4.0

W8MM:

 

 

I'm left to wonder if there are any real differences between the Super Sports I have mounted and the "N0" versions now offered from Porsche?

 

Anybody know?

 

When you read all self congratulatory blurb from Porsche marketing above you would think Porsche invented this tyre but I think we all know the truth 

I'm just waiting for them to N0 stamp the 325/30 size for the 1260 997 GT2s made then they can tell me how great they are, something I've know for years now 

--

3.9  GT2 2011 make over

TB993tt:

 

When you read all self congratulatory blurb from Porsche marketing above you would think Porsche invented this tyre but I think we all know the truth 

I'm just waiting for them to N0 stamp the 325/30 size for the 1260 997 GT2s made then they can tell me how great they are, something I've know for years now 

--

 

 

3.9  GT2 2011 make over

You know the truth, we don't. I know that tuners (and tire dealers) love to tell customers that there is nothing different about the N-rated tires but there is. In Germany, the price difference between the same tire with and without N-rating is minimal (50 EUR or so per tire), so there is no reason for Porsche to claim that the N-rated tires are better and specifically adapted.

Speaking of which tire feels better: I once ignored Porsche's recommendation for a N-rated winter tire on my Cayenne Turbo because the Pirelli winter tire really sucked (long breaking distance, not much stability on snow and ice) and yes, the Nokian winter tire without N-rating was much better...until I took a sharp curve on a dry road at a very high speed and almost lost control of the car without previous warning, the tire practically "collapsed" (sidegrip was gone instantly) and it was a wonder that I was able to stabilize the car before I hit something. The reason why the Pirelli was so bad was the stiffer side walls and the different compound mixture, so this doesn't happen. Just as a hint of what is to be expected from a non N-rated tire if you drive it at the limit.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S (Sept. 2013), Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

RC:

 

You know the truth, we don't. I know that tuners (and tire dealers) love to tell customers that there is nothing different about the N-rated tires but there is. 

The "truth" is that Porsche did not invent the MPSS, whether they made some changes in the 345 size which Futch has on his CGT and the N0 stamped ones is the moot point.

You believe they do in all cases when they give the N stamp, in this case I don't believe there is any difference. It would be great if we had some industry insiders on the forum who could tell us definitively, sometimes you do appear to almost blindly believe everything Porsche feed us without question - just saying 

3.9  GT2 2011 make over

TB993tt:

RC:

 

You know the truth, we don't. I know that tuners (and tire dealers) love to tell customers that there is nothing different about the N-rated tires but there is. 

The "truth" is that Porsche did not invent the MPSS, whether they made some changes in the 345 size which Futch has on his CGT and the N0 stamped ones is the moot point.

You believe they do in all cases when they give the N stamp, in this case I don't believe there is any difference. It would be great if we had some industry insiders on the forum who could tell us definitively, sometimes you do appear to almost blindly believe everything Porsche feed us without question - just saying 

+1. It's like saying my Stand21 driving gloves are better because they are the ones from Porsche with the name stitched on the knuckles. 

Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region

Why would Porsche adopt the N rating, if it had no substance? Do they derive any sort of monetary or other benefit out of it, so as to have an incentive to devise this non-genuine situation?

"Form follows function"

Would you put any oil other than Mobile1 in your engine? Any wheels other than the factory's on your car (even if TUV approved)? Change your brake pads to anything other other than factory stock?

Many here wouldn't. They also use only N-rated tires. The rest of us use non-factory parts if they are of high quality and fit the intended purpose better than the stock pieces. The people that exclusively use N-rated tires pedantically tell us that isn't "allowed", or not intended. 

We know better than to listen too hard to them...

Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region

I don't think the analogy with the Mobil 1 is identical. Porsche recommend an oil that could be used in any other car. They don't adopt an N rated Mobil 1.

In the case of tyres they don't only recommend a brand, or  sub-brand but also a special version of that. They could say we recommend P Zero or PS2, end of story. They didn't have to go further and devise this allegedly fictitious N sub-division, if there was no substance to It. N rated tyres  are not more expensive than normal, so another dark motive can be excluded.

What is the point of Porsche doing it , then?

"Form follows function"

Since reginos mentions Porsche and Mobile1 in the same breath, I have a cautionary tale to tell.

My Carrera GT had its first valve adjustment recently.  While I was waiting to make an appointment to have the service performed, I chanced to see another Carrera GT belonging to a friend of mine having the same service performed.  The entire back of he car was taken apart (normal) and the mechanic motioned for me to come over and take a look.  The valve train was exposed and I observed the cam shafts to be seriously worn and pitted.  The cam lobe surface looked like the hardening was completely absent, no smooth, shiny metal, just like a micro version of the surface of the Moon.  Wow!

After seeing the cams in that condition, I wondered if mine were the same way, and whether I wanted to find out!  

Well, mine were in a similar condition, not quite as badly pitted, but requiring replacement.  All I could think of was $$$$$!  My car was always serviced according to the schedule at the same Porsche center where I purchased it.  

After sending the service logs from the ECU to PCNA, Porsche and my dealer, together, agreed to fund the new parts and labor to replace the cam shafts.  All I had to pay for was the regular service bill -- a very happy outcome!  

The cause of the problem appears to have been the continuously declining amount of Zinc additives in Mobile1.  The current formulation of Mobile1 is downright dangerous to Carrera GT engine longevity.  Porsche seems not to want to deviate from recommended procedures, even if bad mechanical results eventuate.  Porsche just has to be constantly evaluating motor oil formulations as part of their company regimen.  How hard would it have been to alert the service centers that an oil specification change was in order?  

My dealer and I came to the conclusion that Amsoil would be used from here after to avoid a repeat of the cam shaft replacement syndrome.

Mike

Carrera GT + Tesla Roadster 1.5 & Model S + Panamera Turbo +  BMW Z8 + BMW 3.0 CSi + Bentley Arnage T + GT3 RS 4.0

I guess I just think that the vast majority of it is branding and marketing. The tires may be a little bit different, but they are not totally changed tires. I don't believe it is dangerous to put non-N rated tires on your car and I'm convinced that other tires might meet very specific needs better that n-rated tires. 

RC complained about the sidewalls on his Nokian tires but I bet they went through the snow a whole lot better than the Pirelli's did. He has to take some of the blame there for not driving within the performance envelope of what he put on the car. The Nokians weren't made for going that speed or lateral g's just the same as the Pirellis aren't made for going through much more than some ice and slush. 

N-rated tires are safe to do what Porsche expects you to do with your car. 

Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region

My original question is what driving characteristics differentiate the N0 MSS from the MSS I already have mounted on my Carrera GT?  

Porsche seems reticent to spell it out.  All the things they said about the differences between the old Pilot Sport and the Super Sport I can attest to from my experiences with the non-N0 version.  

So, wazzup?  Anything?

--

Mike

Carrera GT + Tesla Roadster 1.5 & Model S + Panamera Turbo +  BMW Z8 + BMW 3.0 CSi + Bentley Arnage T + GT3 RS 4.0

W8MM:

My original question is what driving characteristics differentiate the N0 MSS from the MSS I already have mounted on my Carrera GT?  

 

Apart from being cynical of Porsche marketing this is all I want to know also since I am using MPSS on my GT2 and have used them over 210mph many times, I would like to know if Porsche have made alterations to get the N rating 

3.9  GT2 2011 make over

I have made many searches on Michelin K1 spec tires -Ferrari specific as N0- and found out that they are really different. 

Michelin PS2 K1 spec tires use Michelis PSS compound and Michelin PSS K1 tires have shaved thread. I can't remember how much but K1 spec PSS are shaved and have less thread than regular PSS.

My info is limited to Ferrari but it strongly suggests that Porsche's N0 tires are somehow different than regular series.

ONUR

THE BEST CAR EVER 

11 E92 M3 CP - 09 Audi TTS Coupe - 07 997 Carrera S - 05 M3 Coupe - 03 M3 Coupe - 96 M3 Coupe EVO (PASS TIME HISTORY)

One of my biggest customers is a tire supplier of Porsche. We are working for the IT department but ofcourse some of the computer guys are petrolheads, too. They know that I own a Boxster and they told me thatthe N rated tires have a different specification.

When you have a tire like a PSS 305/30 ZR19 102 XL with a load index that is required e.g. by a Porsche 997 Turbo, it is out of discussion that this tire is made for a sportscar and not for a family van ;). You cant compare it with the difference between Cayenne Pirelli N-Rated and Nokian Winter tires. Maybe there is a difference in compund mixture but the stiffness of the sidewalls is fixed by the minimum required load index. How many cars on the market need 305/30 ZR19 102 XL tires ? You all know it that this tire is not used very often ;) exept from Porsche. So why should Michelin bring out a tire that is not usable on its main intend: the Porsche ?

I drive the PSS now nearly 20 Tkm and im absolutely stunned how good it is compared over the former Bridgestones and Pilot Sport 2.

I am confused now - so do Michelin 325/30/19 PSS with N rating exist for my RS ? I also want to try something different than the Cup tire !

BjoernB:

I am confused now - so do Michelin 325/30/19 PSS with N rating exist for my RS ? I also want to try something different than the Cup tire !

I think  it exists only in the US. TB933 has it shipped to the Uk if I recall properly.

--

 997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm