Crown

MKSGR:

acrobat:

Kreso,

What are the aerodynamic-figures?

 

turbo:

Cw 0.31

CwxA 0.64

Front axle at 200kph: +5kg

Rear axle at 200kph: -9kg

 

 

 

turbo S (with aero kit):

Cw 0.32

CwxA 0.66

Front axle at 200kph: +5kg

Rear axle at 200kph: -24kg

 

 

 

How come aero kit has worse Cw yet less downforce at the back

ONUR

11 M3 Coupe AW

09 Audi TTS Coupe - 07 997 Carrera S - 05 M3 Coupe - 03 M3 Coupe - 96 M3 Coupe EVO (PASS TIME HISTORY)

pride355:

MKSGR:

acrobat:

Kreso,

What are the aerodynamic-figures?

 

turbo:

Cw 0.31

CwxA 0.64

Front axle at 200kph: +5kg

Rear axle at 200kph: -9kg

 

 

 

turbo S (with aero kit):

Cw 0.32

CwxA 0.66

Front axle at 200kph: +5kg

Rear axle at 200kph: -24kg

 

 

 

How come aero kit has worse Cw yet less downforce at the back

Actually those are downforce figures. So 9 kgs (Turbo) vs. 24 kgs (aerokit).

acrobat:

pride355:

MKSGR:

acrobat:

Kreso,

What are the aerodynamic-figures?

 

turbo:

Cw 0.31

CwxA 0.64

Front axle at 200kph: +5kg

Rear axle at 200kph: -9kg

 

 

 

turbo S (with aero kit):

Cw 0.32

CwxA 0.66

Front axle at 200kph: +5kg

Rear axle at 200kph: -24kg

 

 

 

How come aero kit has worse Cw yet less downforce at the back

Actually those are downforce figures. So 9 kgs (Turbo) vs. 24 kgs (aerokit).

Ok thanks

So is +5 kg uplift is -5 kg downforce?

I thought that the small channels at each corner of "aero kit" in front decrease the lift.

ONUR

11 M3 Coupe AW

09 Audi TTS Coupe - 07 997 Carrera S - 05 M3 Coupe - 03 M3 Coupe - 96 M3 Coupe EVO (PASS TIME HISTORY)

just confirms that the turbo and turbo s are really grand tourers of the 911 range.

i am fine with that as there is the gt line for track fun.

Markus

Thanks for posting the numbers

I've always wanted to see some real aero data for a Porsche aero kit, they always claimed more downforce and now it is proven.

What is interesting is the S's drag numbers are exact the same as the 997GT2 (also measured by SA) despite the GT2 having the big rear tyres and spoilerage yet the GT2 has even more downforce @ 9kg front and 29kg rear

The 997tt.1 had its aero measured by SA at:

Cd 0.29

CdA 0.59

F lift 8kg

R downforce 12kg

What are the differences on the 997.2 which hit the drag numbers so badly

2009 997 GT2

pride355:

MKSGR:

acrobat:

Kreso,

What are the aerodynamic-figures?

 

turbo:

Cw 0.31

CwxA 0.64

Front axle at 200kph: +5kg

Rear axle at 200kph: -9kg

 

 

 

turbo S (with aero kit):

Cw 0.32

CwxA 0.66

Front axle at 200kph: +5kg

Rear axle at 200kph: -24kg

 

 

 

How come aero kit has worse Cw yet less downforce at the back

 The downforce is actually higher with Aerokit (24kg vs. 9kg) 

MKSGR:

 Here are the key results from the Supertest (the turboS was equipped with the aero kit, both cars on Bridgestone, both cars with PCCB, same weight):

NBR-NS: 7.44 vs. 7.47 (both numbers are frustrating...)

HHR: 1.10,9 vs. 1.12,1 (frustrating as well)

Wet handling: 1.37,1 vs. 1.37,4 (bad as well)

Max-speed on Doettinger Höhe: 295kph vs. 288kph

0-200: 10.6s vs. 10.8s

0-100: 3.1s vs. 3.2s

200-0: 134.5m vs. 138.6m

fuel consumption: 15.8l/100km with both cars

 

I really would be interested in the corresponding figures on Cup/Corsa tires. I guess they won't be much different, otherwise Porsche would have sent a corresponding test car.

How did Porsche manage to build a car with such a bad suspension? The test results are really crappy. Even in the latest version of the turbo.

Why do you think these numbers are frustrating? Don't forget that Cup tires (semi-slicks) usually account for an advantage of up to 10 seconds on the Nordschleife.

The 1.10.9 time in Hockenheim is actually pretty impressive for a car with street tires.

What I actually find to be frustrating is that minor difference in 0-100/0-200 kph performance.

The 911 Turbo was never a pure track car and if you compare it's track performance numbers with those of other "GTs", you can see a huge difference.

As to the GT-R comparison: Seriously, anybody who believes that a stock GT-R did the Nordschleife on street tires in 7:24 min, should have his head checked. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

RC:

MKSGR:

 Here are the key results from the Supertest (the turboS was equipped with the aero kit, both cars on Bridgestone, both cars with PCCB, same weight):

NBR-NS: 7.44 vs. 7.47 (both numbers are frustrating...)

HHR: 1.10,9 vs. 1.12,1 (frustrating as well)

Wet handling: 1.37,1 vs. 1.37,4 (bad as well)

Max-speed on Doettinger Höhe: 295kph vs. 288kph

0-200: 10.6s vs. 10.8s

0-100: 3.1s vs. 3.2s

200-0: 134.5m vs. 138.6m

fuel consumption: 15.8l/100km with both cars

 

I really would be interested in the corresponding figures on Cup/Corsa tires. I guess they won't be much different, otherwise Porsche would have sent a corresponding test car.

How did Porsche manage to build a car with such a bad suspension? The test results are really crappy. Even in the latest version of the turbo.

 

Why do you think these numbers are frustrating? Don't forget that Cup tires (semi-slicks) usually account for an advantage of up to 10 seconds on the Nordschleife.

The 1.10.9 time in Hockenheim is actually pretty impressive for a car with street tires.

 

My assumption (or fear) is that Cup tires would not make such a big difference. As indicated by the wet handling numbers the Bridgestone tires have very poor wet handling capabilities. That is also the reason why SportAuto mentions in the test that the Bridgestones seem to be very focused on dry performance. Thus, this might explain why Porsche does not send a car with Cup tires to the test - i.e. Cup tires would not make a major difference...

Kreso states that Porsche might claim a NBR lap time improvement of 5-8s using Cup tires. I tend to be cautious regarding these Porsche claims. Would be interesting to see some Sportauto lap times on Cup tires 

For comparison....the sports car elite on semi-slicks (tested by Sport Auto):

Maserati MC 12: 7.24,29 min 
Pagani Zonda: 7.24,44 min 
Ferrari Enzo: 7.25,21 min 
Porsche Carrera GT: 7.28,71 min 
Koenigsegg CCX: 7.33,55 min 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

RC:

For comparison....the sports car elite on semi-slicks (tested by Sport Auto):

Maserati MC 12: 7.24,29 min 
Pagani Zonda: 7.24,44 min 
Ferrari Enzo: 7.25,21 min 
Porsche Carrera GT: 7.28,71 min 
Koenigsegg CCX: 7.33,55 min 

Actually tested by EVO with racing driver Marc Basseng. On the same 20,6 km-layout Sport Auto also uses.

This is why SA mentioned the times on their site.

acrobat:

RC:

For comparison....the sports car elite on semi-slicks (tested by Sport Auto):

Maserati MC 12: 7.24,29 min 
Pagani Zonda: 7.24,44 min 
Ferrari Enzo: 7.25,21 min 
Porsche Carrera GT: 7.28,71 min 
Koenigsegg CCX: 7.33,55 min 

Actually tested by EVO with racing driver Marc Basseng. On the same 20,6 km-layout Sport Auto also uses.

This is why SA mentioned the times on their site.

+1 There were videos of the laps of the each car on the net. The driver was Marc Basseng.

ONUR

11 M3 Coupe AW

09 Audi TTS Coupe - 07 997 Carrera S - 05 M3 Coupe - 03 M3 Coupe - 96 M3 Coupe EVO (PASS TIME HISTORY)

MKSGR:

Kreso states that Porsche might claim a NBR lap time improvement of 5-8s using Cup tires. I tend to be cautious regarding these Porsche claims. Would be interesting to see some Sportauto lap times on Cup tires 

Hasn't HvS mentioned at the time of the Carrera S supertest that Cup tyres are worth 7 secs on the NoS?

"Form follows function"

reginos:

MKSGR:

Kreso states that Porsche might claim a NBR lap time improvement of 5-8s using Cup tires. I tend to be cautious regarding these Porsche claims. Would be interesting to see some Sportauto lap times on Cup tires 

Hasn't HvS mentioned at the time of the Carrera S supertest that Cup tyres are worth 7 secs on the NoS?

Yes, he has mentioned that.

997.2 Carrera S tested by HvS laped the Ring @ 7.50; That car was equipped with PDK + SC + PCCB + cup tyres. The estimated lap time of the very same 911 with street tires were 7.57-7.58 which was approx. 5 sec faster than 997.1 Carrera S 6MT w/-20 mm sports chassie on street tires. (also approx. 3 sec faster than estimated time (8:00) of E92 M3 DKG w/comp. pack. on street tires.)

--

ONUR

11 M3 Coupe AW

09 Audi TTS Coupe - 07 997 Carrera S - 05 M3 Coupe - 03 M3 Coupe - 96 M3 Coupe EVO (PASS TIME HISTORY)

pride355:

reginos:

MKSGR:

Kreso states that Porsche might claim a NBR lap time improvement of 5-8s using Cup tires. I tend to be cautious regarding these Porsche claims. Would be interesting to see some Sportauto lap times on Cup tires 

Hasn't HvS mentioned at the time of the Carrera S supertest that Cup tyres are worth 7 secs on the NoS?

Yes, he has mentioned that.

997.2 Carrera S tested by HvS laped the Ring @ 7.50; That car was equipped with PDK + SC + PCCB + cup tyres. The estimated lap time of the very same 911 with street tires were 7.57-7.58 which was approx. 5 sec faster than 997.1 Carrera S 6MT w/-20 mm sports chassie on street tires. (also approx. 3 sec faster than estimated time (8:00) of E92 M3 DKG w/comp. pack. on street tires.)

--

ONUR

11 M3 Coupe AW

09 Audi TTS Coupe - 07 997 Carrera S - 05 M3 Coupe - 03 M3 Coupe - 96 M3 Coupe EVO (PASS TIME HISTORY)

 

 Would be interesting to know whether this statement of HvS was based on the same Porsche sources Kreso mentioned above or whether HvS tried himself  

MKSGR:

pride355:

reginos:

MKSGR:

Kreso states that Porsche might claim a NBR lap time improvement of 5-8s using Cup tires. I tend to be cautious regarding these Porsche claims. Would be interesting to see some Sportauto lap times on Cup tires 

Hasn't HvS mentioned at the time of the Carrera S supertest that Cup tyres are worth 7 secs on the NoS?

Yes, he has mentioned that.

997.2 Carrera S tested by HvS laped the Ring @ 7.50; That car was equipped with PDK + SC + PCCB + cup tyres. The estimated lap time of the very same 911 with street tires were 7.57-7.58 which was approx. 5 sec faster than 997.1 Carrera S 6MT w/-20 mm sports chassie on street tires. (also approx. 3 sec faster than estimated time (8:00) of E92 M3 DKG w/comp. pack. on street tires.)

--

ONUR

11 M3 Coupe AW

09 Audi TTS Coupe - 07 997 Carrera S - 05 M3 Coupe - 03 M3 Coupe - 96 M3 Coupe EVO (PASS TIME HISTORY)

 

 Would be interesting to know whether this statement of HvS was based on the same Porsche sources Kreso mentioned above or whether HvS tried himself  

Good point Marcus

ONUR

11 M3 Coupe AW

09 Audi TTS Coupe - 07 997 Carrera S - 05 M3 Coupe - 03 M3 Coupe - 96 M3 Coupe EVO (PASS TIME HISTORY)

MKSGR:

 Exactly: the GT2 Mk1 reaches a similar top-speed on Doettinger Hoehe, for example - but still is more than 10s faster than the turboS.

.

concerning top speed at Döttinger höhe:

gt2 997 293 kmh

997turbos  295 and for the turbo 288

Shoes clairly that the gt2 makes some ground at higher speeds on the pdk cars and therefor still pulls harder on hihger speeds as the turbo/S.( that reflacts my own experiance on the german high way from about 230 to 300kmh against a friends 997 pdk turbo S, i had a few weeks ago. On lower speed behind, on top speeds a head)  If we keep in mind the adventage off the pdk from 0 to 200kmh oder even 230, where the gt2 997 lose significant time over the turbo and turbo S, the top speed of the 3 year old gt2 isnt bad at all.

Dario:

MKSGR:

 Exactly: the GT2 Mk1 reaches a similar top-speed on Doettinger Hoehe, for example - but still is more than 10s faster than the turboS.

.

concerning top speed at Döttinger höhe:

gt2 997 293 kmh

997turbos  295 and for the turbo 288

Shoes clairly that the gt2 makes some ground at higher speeds on the pdk cars and therefor still pulls harder on hihger speeds as the turbo/S.( that reflacts my own experiance on the german high way from about 230 to 300kmh against a friends 997 pdk turbo S, i had a few weeks ago. On lower speed behind, on top speeds a head)  If we keep in mind the adventage off the pdk from 0 to 200kmh oder even 230, where the gt2 997 lose significant time over the turbo and turbo S, the top speed of the 3 year old gt2 isnt bad at all.

I am not 100% sure about this: if you check the entry speed (Döttinger Höhe) of GT2 Mk1 and turboS you will find that the GT2 enters like 6kph faster but is still 2kph slower at the end of the straight. This implies that the turboS is quicker also at higher/highest speeds. The reason is PDK - the GT2 suffers a lot from gear-shifts at high speeds (loss of boost pressure, aerodynamic effect). That's also part of the reason why the McLaren will kill the GT2 RS at high speeds 

i think it's the right thing to do to thest the car with the OEM tires and not aftermarket performance stuff.

we leave that to ferrari

MKSGR:

I am not 100% sure about this: if you check the entry speed (Döttinger Höhe) of GT2 Mk1 and turboS you will find that the GT2 enters like 6kph faster but is still 2kph slower at the end of the straight. This implies that the turboS is quicker also at higher/highest speeds. The reason is PDK - the GT2 suffers a lot from gear-shifts at high speeds (loss of boost pressure, aerodynamic effect). That's also part of the reason why the McLaren will kill the GT2 RS at high speeds 

the entry speed at Döttinger höhe is exactly where the rang of pdk has still a big adventage (0-220/230) over the manuel gearbox of the gt2. Try it yoursel, you will figuer out that your gt2 if stock pulls more from 230kmh up to high speed than a turbo s. That was the case when we did 2 comparo runs.

But i agree because of 2 runs i cant say it  in general, but it was my expirence, on that day.

Maybee i have the chance to repeat it with filming, as long my car is still stock, as well the turbo s is.

To be honest, I found that test to be rather odd.Dissapointing to see that von Saurma spends the first two pages to give a rundown on the 911 Turbo history. As enticing it is to see these two cars being tested next to each other, SA does not explain the performance differences on NS and HHR. The former can certainly be due to the higher power output of the TTS but, considering description and data, a difference of more than one second on the latter is quite surprising and not obvious from cornering and straightline speed.

MKSGR:

For me, the Supertest gets more and more important as you can really feel the lap time differences on public roads as well. Capable/Incapable chassis simply reveal their qualities on the track as well as on public roads. That's why - for me - comparing lap times is most relevant.

You certainly have a point but one can adjust [read: manipulate] the laptimes by adapting the car to its purpose. Performance and handling will be impressive but any customer would experience a significant tradeoff in other relevant aspects. I agree though that a bad laptime will probably indicate a mediocre handling car...

It is somewhat surprising that the 997.2 Turbo models are not significantly faster than their predecessor, despite performance-enhancing torque steering and adaptive engine mounts. According to SA, the car has become more stable around the vertical axis so there certainly is an improvement.

Dario:

MKSGR:

I am not 100% sure about this: if you check the entry speed (Döttinger Höhe) of GT2 Mk1 and turboS you will find that the GT2 enters like 6kph faster but is still 2kph slower at the end of the straight. This implies that the turboS is quicker also at higher/highest speeds. The reason is PDK - the GT2 suffers a lot from gear-shifts at high speeds (loss of boost pressure, aerodynamic effect). That's also part of the reason why the McLaren will kill the GT2 RS at high speeds 

the entry speed at Döttinger höhe is exactly where the rang of pdk has still a big adventage (0-220/230) over the manuel gearbox of the gt2. Try it yoursel, you will figuer out that your gt2 if stock pulls more from 230kmh up to high speed than a turbo s. That was the case when we did 2 comparo runs.

But i agree because of 2 runs i cant say it  in general, but it was my expirence, on that day.

Maybee i have the chance to repeat it with filming, as long my car is still stock, as well the turbo s is.

 

Please consider the following as well:

Speed at entry to start/finish straight in Hockenheim /// speed at end of start/finish straight:

GT2 Mk1: 111kph /// 210kph

turboS: 108kph /// 208kph

Thus, the turboS does not gain on the GT2 in the speed range between 100kph and 210kph. Consequently, the advantage of the turboS on Doettinger Hoehe must be achieved at speeds >210kph 

RC:

For comparison....the sports car elite on semi-slicks (tested by Sport Auto):

Maserati MC 12: 7.24,29 min 
Pagani Zonda: 7.24,44 min 
Ferrari Enzo: 7.25,21 min 
Porsche Carrera GT: 7.28,71 min 
Koenigsegg CCX: 7.33,55 min 

Hello RC!

The test was performed with a 100% stock Carrera GT, and anyways, semi-clicks are not available for the GT, I've tried many times, not possible. 

So imagine if it could actually wear semi slick tyres what an amazing time this car would achieve, still very much on top of its game IMHO.

New Michelin Supersports should give better performance but not quite up to Cup tyres.

As for Turbo S, for a GT car, I am very impressed with the results. I have Bridgestone tyres on mine which are not amazing, I intend to put Michelin Supersports on them after.

Futch:

New Michelin Supersports should give better performance but not quite up to Cup tyres.

 

As for Turbo S, for a GT car, I am very impressed with the results. I have Bridgestone tyres on mine which are not amazing, I intend to put Michelin Supersports on them after.

Michelin SuperSports is a very performance oriented tyre, indeed. I'm also planning to put them on my E92 M3 once I have done with the current Michelin PS2s.

ONUR

11 M3 Coupe AW

09 Audi TTS Coupe - 07 997 Carrera S - 05 M3 Coupe - 03 M3 Coupe - 96 M3 Coupe EVO (PASS TIME HISTORY)

Sorry, of course you are right, the Carrera GT tires are not semi-slicks...just custom tailored tires.  

Welcome back, Francois...we missed you. 

I know that many professional drivers are fantasizing about how great the performance of a semi-slick Carrera GT would actually be and how inferior (compared to modern semi-slicks) the custom tailored Michelins are but I'm not too sure about this. The Carrera GT is a great car but also a couple of years old (chassis) and it isn't quite the lightweight model either anymore. Of course it has all those racing genes but I doubt that simple semi-slicks would do the trick. Custom tailored semi-slicks would be a different story though. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

RC:

I know that many professional drivers are fantasizing about how great the performance of a semi-slick Carrera GT would actually be and how inferior (compared to modern semi-slicks) the custom tailored Michelins are but I'm not too sure about this. The Carrera GT is a great car but also a couple of years old (chassis) and it isn't quite the lightweight model either anymore. Of course it has all those racing genes but I doubt that simple semi-slicks would do the trick. Custom tailored semi-slicks would be a different story though. 

 

Thanks RC!

The tyres issue is a really big one.

That is the thing I never managed to find out.

Porsche claims that Michelin developed special tyres for the GT, but I've looked closely, and frankly, they are just Michelin sport pilot tyres no less, no more.

Same for the 599 GTO, Ferrari said the same thing about the specially developed tyres but in fact, they are just the new Michelin Supersport tyre which will very soon be available for a whole range of sports cars including Porsches.

So which is what? I think car manufacturers have their say in tyre development programs but as much as their marketing would have us believe.

As for the GT chassis, I thought it was the only part carried over to the 918, well the CFRP tub, so very much still actual? Ok ok, I am biased...

As far as pleasure of driving goes though, this is car is still unbeaten for me. New cars are just too digital IMO, just the pleasure of perfecting a heel and toe with that intertia free revving V10, woop woop!!!!

But performance wise, game has moved on, I bought a performance box (i know, that's sad) and I recorded 0 to 100 kmh in 3.1 secs in the Turbo S, simply mind blowing! And it's just a 911, amazing!!! 

Pretty good fun as well too.

Porsche Turbo is marketed for those who want power, unequalled performance, comfort, stability with safety on public roads. There are better buys for track work. I am not at all surprised/disappointed by the results.

nberry:

Porsche Turbo is marketed for those who want power, unequalled performance, comfort, stability with safety on public roads. There are better buys for track work. I am not at all surprised/disappointed by the results. 

The above sums up the Porsche Turbo concept very accurately. I'd add everyday usability/practicality too.

"Form follows function"

MKSGR: 

Please consider the following as well:

Speed at entry to start/finish straight in Hockenheim /// speed at end of start/finish straight:

GT2 Mk1: 111kph /// 210kph

turboS: 108kph /// 208kph

Thus, the turboS does not gain on the GT2 in the speed range between 100kph and 210kph. Consequently, the advantage of the turboS on Doettinger Hoehe must be achieved at speeds >210kph 

 

 fair point, the only explanation on that one i could imagen, the gt2 can accelerat earlier than the other ones, and therefor maybee can compensat the lake of shifts with earlier boost...

If you take acceleration 100-200, the turbo / S are faster than the gt2, if you take 160-200kmh (based on eatch supertest the gt2 is sligthly faster (marginaly) But the shifst in the gt2 are "mutch slower" than the pdks (and from 160-200 there is one manuel shift on the gt2.

I just can speak from my expierence i had, will try to film it, and we will see if the outcome is the same.

KresoF1:

BTW, New Corsas N1 are also available for Turbo.

 .. and they are absolutely amazing.. Have them on a 997.1tt with 700+ hp and they are very sticky and progressing. Step ahead even from the wonderful Corsa N0s