Crown

Link to the story - HERE.

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"Dream as impractical, irrational and unnecessary as that may be... Here's to the Dreamers!" -- Porsche AG.

Very logical IMO.

I wonder why there was a debate within VW Group in the first place, about this self-evident matter.

"Form follows function"

Execs at one or the other had stakes in this  decision, but at the end of the day, the Porsche , Audi, Lambo, VW,  Bentley, etc.,  buyers'   monies  go into the same bank acct - and that's all the Board cares about.

should not have been any other way........

reginos:

Very logical IMO.

I wonder why there was a debate within VW Group in the first place, about this self-evident matter.

There is nothing logical in this article, 90% of it is...sorry to say that...dead wrong. 

Details will be unfolded to the public early next year...at least I hope so. First they need to end the merger thingie to be on the safe side.

Truth is: Porsche will be responsible for the sportier side of VW/Audi but many models will still be based on high volume platforms from VW/Audi. According to our sources, the next gen Panamera sedan will be based on the Audi A8 platform, same as Bentley models.

The 911 was never discussed, 911 development is staying completely with Porsche for various reasons. 

My guess is: VW/Audi wants to use the Porsche brand to make them "look, sound and feel" sportier but the reality is quite different. Another publicity stunt and the writer of the article apparently fell for it.

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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

It's repeated here:

http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsArticle/AllCars/254486/

and Herr Winterkorn is quoted as confirming ( to whom???)Porsche's role

"Form follows function"

reginos:

It's repeated here:

http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsArticle/AllCars/254486/

and Herr Winterkorn is quoted as confirming ( to whom???)Porsche's role

Publicity stunt for various reasons ? Don't forget that the merger isn't over yet, Porsche has just issued new stocks to the market and there is still a huge power struggle going on regarding Porsche's future in the VW family.

The merger also seems to be delayed for various legal reasons.

It isn't over yet...I'm afraid. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

RC:

reginos:

It's repeated here:

http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsArticle/AllCars/254486/

and Herr Winterkorn is quoted as confirming ( to whom???)Porsche's role

 

Publicity stunt for various reasons ? Don't forget that the merger isn't over yet, Porsche has just issued new stocks to the market and there is still a huge power struggle going on regarding Porsche's future in the VW family.

The merger also seems to be delayed for various legal reasons.

It isn't over yet...I'm afraid. 

Porsche are in the weaker position as they have no one else to depend on.

OTOH, VW definitely like to add the Porsche brand to their palette but it won't be the end of the world for VW if they don't.

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"Form follows function"

Good point but Porsche needs VW, now even more than before. This is the only way they can lower production cost but at the same time offering a new variety of models.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

If Porsche engineers will provide the standard for VW and Audi, this might have a negative impact on Porsche cars too.

I think they will keep the quality of Porsche cars intact. Mind you VW and Audi quality is pretty damn good also..

Maybe the Audi Quattro will have a Porsche heart, that would hurt in museums for decades to come. "NEIN, don't open the hood" 

indeed shifting is ancient technology - so is a fuel burning engine..  I happen to like both :) 

 I would think it wise to maintain different independent groups working on high-performance car design, rather than put it all in one group. First, you've got natural competitiveness between the groups which should up the ante on real innovation; second, you don't run the risk of your whole design group going sour under a poor leader; and three,  you protect brand DNA, with differences challenging the others to outperform.

I agree that the above press story doesn't make much sense. Do we really think Audi engineers want to see a truck arriving from Porsche, saying "Here's your new quattro Concept for Geneva?" 

"When you design a car around the customer's wishes, you get cup holders. When you design a car around innovative thinking, you get a Porsche."

I think it is difficult, perhaps impossible, for sports car enthusiasts to fully grasp the corporate executive mentality.  I work in a large hospital bureaucracy where my opinion as a subspecialist physician is rarely, if ever, consulted when policy decisions are made which directly influence  patient care.  Cost considerations and "productivity" are what drive the executive decision making process as their performance bonuses are based on such measures.  I  believe this is analogous to automotive engineers excluded from key aspects of design and performance specifications in favor of cost and efficiency priorities.  Porsche has little if any leverage remaining in its dealings with VW/Audi, and I expect that VW/Audi decisions w/ regard to Porsche's role will be based on long term corporate profits as the major driving force.

Carpe Diem--life is but a crack of light bounded by eternities of darkness (Nabokov)

DaveC:

I think it is difficult, perhaps impossible, for sports car enthusiasts to fully grasp the corporate executive mentality.  I work in a large hospital bureaucracy where my opinion as a subspecialist physician is rarely, if ever, consulted when policy decisions are made which directly influence  patient care.  Cost considerations and "productivity" are what drive the executive decision making process as their performance bonuses are based on such measures.  I  believe this is analogous to automotive engineers excluded from key aspects of design and performance specifications in favor of cost and efficiency priorities.  Porsche has little if any leverage remaining in its dealings with VW/Audi, and I expect that VW/Audi decisions w/ regard to Porsche's role will be based on long term corporate profits as the major driving force.

Also , the globalization of the industry means any REALLY ambitious exec will have worked at 4-5 or more different car companies ( not departments ) over a career , working for Ferrari today and a truck maker tomorrow . It's all about moving essentially the same " product " : a metal box on rubber tires , at the greatest possible profit .

DaveC:

I think it is difficult, perhaps impossible, for sports car enthusiasts to fully grasp the corporate executive mentality.  I work in a large hospital bureaucracy where my opinion as a subspecialist physician is rarely, if ever, consulted when policy decisions are made which directly influence  patient care.  Cost considerations and "productivity" are what drive the executive decision making process as their performance bonuses are based on such measures.  

I  believe this is analogous to automotive engineers excluded from key aspects of design and performance specifications in favor of cost and efficiency priorities. Porsche has little if any leverage remaining in its dealings with VW/Audi, and I expect that VW/Audi decisions w/ regard to Porsche's role will be based on long term corporate profits as the major driving force.

There is surely a great deal of truth in the first part of the above assessment. Car companies are primarily run to make money, and not to provide us with our "big-boys' toys". But there are still a few people involved in the industry  who appreciate that they can make more money by making products which their customers can still get really enthusiastic about. 

Regarding the second part of your assessment, I am personally encouraged by the fact that the reshuffling of executives we have seen so far has not just resulted in people being brought in to Porsche from VW or Audi to read the riot act to Porsche. We have now also seen instances of former Porsche execs being transferred to very senior key positions in other parts of the VW group, suggesting that they are not just being sidelined.

The awarding of responsibility for development of sportscars to Porsche naturally looks like a good move. The awarding of responsibility for large limousines to Porsche looks odd at first, until you consider that  -  in my view at least  -  the Panamera already appears to be becoming more accepted on the market than the VW Paeton and even the Audi A8 ever were. I say that as someone who had strong doubts about the Panamera being a good idea for Porsche.

Giving responsibility for SUVs to Audi looks odd at first, since its not as if they had years of experience of building such cars. The Cayenne / Touareg, from which the Q7 was derived, had primarily been developed by Porsche up until now. I guess Audi has to be given something though if the development of the big limo platform is taken away. 

fritz

fritz:
The awarding of responsibility for large limousines to Porsche looks odd at first, until you consider that  -  in my view at least  -  the Panamera already appears to be becoming more accepted on the market than the VW Paeton and even the Audi A8 ever were. I say that as someone who had strong doubts about the Panamera being a good idea for Porsche.

IMO the integrity of Panamera as a "sports limousine" ( a new class of vehicle) is exceptional. Porsche did it right first time and without any prior experience, whereas it took years of mediocre products for traditional and competent limousine makers like Mercedes and BMW to do something nearly as good.

BTW some weeks after my extensive drive in a Panamera S I had a chance to drive a 2008 Continental GT. Honestly, compared to that Panamera I couldn't gather what the fuss is all about Bentley particularly if you take cost into account, besides the air of opulence that they sell to their upper class clients.

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"Form follows function"

Now I finally know where this "information" came from: german Auto Zeitung posted a comment on the first page with the very same content a couple of days ago...speaking of the power of the word and how fast it is traveling nowadays with the internet.  

It is interesting that the magazine was officially available starting Dec. 8th but it was already available to subscribers two days earlier. The article by Paul McVeigh is dated Dec. 7th. Take a guess. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

Great, so, what about making one rumor up then - the story would go like "wildspeed" presents a new P-car designed for Audi, which would be heavily amended back and forth by "Misha01",  with "Mike S" already telling us about his new addition to his car collection to be delivered soon and, certainly, accompanying mods, while "easyrider_911" would provide pictures of his journey to this secret location where P or Audi informed the media and rennteam, of course, about the new "spectacular" modell and "RC" telling us about possible plans for the next generation of this car...

Ok, again, I guess, I need a coffee...

Though, going back to the topic: I hope that I will stay young enough to be able to change according to what is changing around me...so, where was that coffee

DaveC:

I think it is difficult, perhaps impossible, for sports car enthusiasts to fully grasp the corporate executive mentality.  I work in a large hospital bureaucracy where my opinion as a subspecialist physician is rarely, if ever, consulted when policy decisions are made which directly influence  patient care.  Cost considerations and "productivity" are what drive the executive decision making process as their performance bonuses are based on such measures.  I  believe this is analogous to automotive engineers excluded from key aspects of design and performance specifications in favor of cost and efficiency priorities.  Porsche has little if any leverage remaining in its dealings with VW/Audi, and I expect that VW/Audi decisions w/ regard to Porsche's role will be based on long term corporate profits as the major driving force.

 DaveC, I think you'll find that a lot of people here understand the corporate mentality pretty well -- that's how some get the funds to fuel their hobby. Your point is well taken but I do think there's a difference: it may be rare for someone in hospital administration to have a passion for the hospital experience but not at all rare for an auto exec to have a true passion for cars. Yes, of course they're driven to make their business successful (we've said on these pages before that Porsche is not a government funded art project!) but they are equally driven to produce great cars.

I know doctors who've become passionate about solving a disease state or procedure, invented a shunt or process and turned it into a billion dollar business. They care about making money, they also care about advancing the state of the medical arts and on their death bed will be more proud of their invention than of the money.

I am currently working on two creative consulting projects, one of which, ironically, is for the American arm of one of the car brands under discussion, the other for a private hospital group. In the case of the private hospital group, the CEO and executive leadership are PASSIONATE about finding innovative ways to take costs out of health care delivery so they can extend it farther down what C.K. Prahalad calls the bottom of the pyramid. They're as passionate about that as any car guys I know. (and anyway, the CEO is a car guy)

My point is that great companies can sustain multiple focuses: good for investors and long term financial health, good for employees, good for the community AND good for the development of great, innovative products and services.

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"When you design a car around the customer's wishes, you get cup holders. When you design a car around innovative thinking, you get a Porsche."

In my experience business management professionals are taught that  good management is  "product independent".  Hence automobile manufacturing,  fast food franchises, and hospitals can all be run efficiently and profitably using the same management principles. "Product Producers/Providers" are not essential to the financial management strategy of the business.  Note that these principals apply to "up and running" concerns, not R&D efforts where managers have learned that creative and independent thinking are essential to the eventual bottom line.  DARPA comes to mind. It is certainly encouraging to read that my experience may be far from the norm.

Carpe Diem--life is but a crack of light bounded by eternities of darkness (Nabokov)

One thing seems to be for sure now: Cayenne development will be moved from Porsche to Audi, same goes to the Touareg and the second Porsche SUV, the "Cajun". We just got confirmation. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

RC:

One thing seems to be for sure now: Cayenne development will be moved from Porsche to Audi, same goes to the Touareg and the second Porsche SUV, the "Cajun". We just got confirmation. 

Cajun is based on Q5 so there is no suprise there.  The question is how much Porsche-ness can Porsche injects to it. 

93' Guard Red 968 Coupe

Monster:

RC:

One thing seems to be for sure now: Cayenne development will be moved from Porsche to Audi, same goes to the Touareg and the second Porsche SUV, the "Cajun". We just got confirmation. 

Cajun is based on Q5 so there is no suprise there.  The question is how much Porsche-ness can Porsche injects to it. 

I'd be less concerned about the amount of Porsche-ness that Porsche could inject into a Cajun whose platform had been developed by Audi than I would about a 911 whose platform had been developed by Audi.  

fritz

RC:

One thing seems to be for sure now: Cayenne development will be moved from Porsche to Audi, same goes to the Touareg and the second Porsche SUV, the "Cajun". We just got confirmation. 

But do you have any doubt that Weissach has a hand in that too?

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"Dream as impractical, irrational and unnecessary as that may be... Here's to the Dreamers!" -- Porsche AG.

So although both Porsche and VW have been building SUVs longer than Audi, they get this niche because of their long Quattro history. Ok that seems fair given that Porsche got the sports car division.

Now the big question is, what on Earth is Audi doing with their R18 in LeMans and what the hell is VW doing rallying in Dakar with theirs.....

This reorganization seems to be only in part right now, and i see a lot complication between the brands and their marketing schemes...

How far will they take these relocation of specific development branches between them. Should Porsche not go racing in LeMans? Should Audi not go Rallying around the world in the Dakar? Where does Scoda and Seat fall into the picture, when VW already has the lower markets covered pretty well? Just keep making cheaper Seats based on 10 year old Audi A4 parts from the bin? What about Lamborghini becoming more serious a sports car and then Porsche's next supercar? Why are there rumors of a Lambo 4-door sports coupe? When Porsche is clearly in charge and Audi already has competition as well. Furthermore, how much decision making power will Porsche get in the Audi RS model range seeing as many models directly hit Porsche these days? Think TT RS vs. Cayman S.

I don't see how the benefits of specialized platform development can outweight the cross competition and dilusion of branch image..

Next Audi A8 and RS5 will feel Porsche

Next Porsche Cayenne will be Audi.

Next VW Touareg will be Audi

Next Audi TT or R4 will be Porsche

Next Audi R8 will be Porsche.. maybe even Lambo.

the list could go on and on...

indeed shifting is ancient technology - so is a fuel burning engine..  I happen to like both :) 

One word, politics.

Audi is Piech's baby, of course Audi wants everything, Piech probably want to have Porsche under Audi's umbrella if he has his way just to rub dirt on Porsche's family's faces.

Look at how confused the whole VW line up is, overlap products and brands everywhere.

All because Piech wants his baby Audi to be everywhere up and down market, left and right into niches that the VAG already has their hands on with other brands within the company.

Thank god common sense won with Porsche doing the sports car leaving Audi on the sedans.

I don't mind Audi doing the SUV, actually I don't mind seeing the Cayenne disappeared leaving only sports cars and a future sporty sedan aka Panamera left in Porsche. WIth Porsche living under the VAG house it doesn't need to money from Cayenne sales to finance their sports car program.

R8 should die, it takes away from Porsche's market share, they already have the Lambo Gallardo in the house, and the R8 is nothing more than a rebadged cheapen version.

Halo car -> Bugatti

High end sedan/Limo -> Bentley

High end exotic -> Lambo

High end sports car -> Porsche (with a sporty sedan version of the A8 tuned by Porsche)

Luxury and mainstream sedan, coupe, SUV -> Audi aka BMW fighter

Cheap people movers battling the Japanese -> VW (back to it's roots), no more $50k VW.

Cheaper still battling Koreans -> Seat and whatever Eastern European brand VAG has.

Virtually no overlap on products, every sale is fresh money from the market, no more taken money from one division to the other.

Porsche do the sports car prototype racing, it has far more heritage doing that than Audi.

Rally/off road goes to Audi, yes Audi has a bunch of Le Mans wins, but there is really no sports car racing heritage, it's only been a a little more than a decade that Audi is successful. Audi is far more famous for rallying with it's Quattro brand.

F1 racing, natural choice is Lambo, who competes directly against Ferrari with their cars, racing them is what comes next.

Another option is to scrap the Audi name and go back to Auto Union, and race with that name.

Here's a little update from the "internal" struggle: apparently Mr. Piech is more involved in Porsche's future in the VW group than we could ever imagine. According to our sources, Mr. Piech is looking at each and every detail at Porsche, incl. future models and model strategies, at a much larger scale than anticipated by the current Porsche leadership.

The "conflict" seems to be about the racing strategy of Porsche, their engines (apparently Piech wants to see more Diesel engines in the Porsche model strategy) and of course the rumored model below the Boxster and the "intermediate" model between the 911 and the 918.

One thing is for sure: Weissach will have a top priority in developing the sportier models of the VW group and now hold your breath, including Lamborghini.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

RC:

One thing is for sure: Weissach will have a top priority in developing the sportier models of the VW group and now hold your breath, including Lamborghini.

This will lose Weissach all the outside business because most of the clients are VW/Audi competitors. However, why give away your know-how when there are plenty of models that can benefit, inside the Group?

"Form follows function"

RC:

...

One thing is for sure: Weissach will have a top priority in developing the sportier models of the VW group and now hold your breath, including Lamborghini.

This is what matters. Weissach is the jewel in the crown. Porsche is a an engineering consulting/design company - they just make cars on the side - excellent ones at that. It has always been so.

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"Dream as impractical, irrational and unnecessary as that may be... Here's to the Dreamers!" -- Porsche AG.