Crown

REALZEUS:

Autocar seems to agree with Rossi that it is going to be a stunning new design. The only thing that crossed me is the demise of the F1 transmission. The double clutch unit may be smoother but I doubt it will be as fast or as brutal as the F1.

Link: http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsArticle/AllCars/238150/
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FERRARI RULES!!!

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REALZEUS:

Autocar seems to agree with Rossi that it is going to be a stunning new design. The only thing that crossed me is the demise of the F1 transmission. The double clutch unit may be smoother but I doubt it will be as fast or as brutal as the F1.

Link: http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsArticle/AllCars/238150/
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FERRARI RULES!!!

 Double Clutch trannnies are inheretly faster than F1 - the next gear UP is already engaged. When you tap the button, all you're doing is "switching off" the lower gear. Your shift time is only take the amount of time for the lower gear cog to fully disengage.

Brutality is over rated. I've driving in both a first gen F1 in a 355 and a first gen SMG in BMW ... the word POOP and unecessarily harsh comes to mind if not shift in all but the nicest fashion.

In theory double clutch transmissions should be faster but even the best do not achieve 60 ms like the Scuderia does! The Scuderia does this by changing cogs even before the clutchg has been engaged/disengaged (like a professionl driver can do in a good manual without using the clutch). Hence the time to upshift or downshift is minimised and can be lower than the double clutch systems as changing cogs (less mass) can be easier than engaging clutch plates.

I agree with Rossi on the reliability part but I think it is a worthwile sacrifice for the absolut best. Hope the lads over Fchat are right and that the F1 box survives.

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dual clutch is superior to f1.....but it's also heavier due to the 2 sets of gears.

no frying clutches either.....

intouch1:

dual clutch is superior to f1.....but it's also heavier due to the 2 sets of gears.

no frying clutches either.....

DCTs in fact have two clutch assemblies, as their name implies, but only one set of gears just like other transmissions.
The additional weight of a DCT compared with an otherwise comparable manual shift transmission is caused by the second clutch and release mechanism and maybe the more complex arrangement of these two clutches around the two concentric drive shafts.

REALZEUS:

In theory double clutch transmissions should be faster but even the best do not achieve 60 ms like the Scuderia does! The Scuderia does this by changing cogs even before the clutchg has been engaged/disengaged (like a professionl driver can do in a good manual without using the clutch). Hence the time to upshift or downshift is minimised and can be lower than the double clutch systems as changing cogs (less mass) can be easier than engaging clutch plates.

Since modern car transmissions are generally of the constant-mesh type where all the gear sets making up each of the gearbox's ratios are permanently engaged anyway,  the old expression "changing cogs" is only used figuratively. The synchroring / dog clutch assemblies which actually engage the ratios have relatively little inertia.

What in your view would prevent a Scud transmission from locking up completely if one gear  is pre-engaged before the previoust gear is disengaged, since the two gears do not have separate drive shafts and clutches like the PDK.

REALZEUS:
What I like with the F1 is that it gives you savagery. I don't like auto-style smooth gearchages in a hard core sportscar.

And that savagery has resulted in people having to replace the clutches of their F1 transmission cars within 20,000 km.    

fritz:

intouch1:

dual clutch is superior to f1.....but it's also heavier due to the 2 sets of gears.

no frying clutches either.....

DCTs in fact have two clutch assemblies, as their name implies, but only one set of gears just like other transmissions.
The additional weight of a DCT compared with an otherwise comparable manual shift transmission is caused by the second clutch and release mechanism and maybe the more complex arrangement of these two clutches around the two concentric drive shafts.

 

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fritz

REALZEUS:
A Ferrari engineer (I think it is also mentioned on their official website) explained in a publication that the reason the F1 is that quick is that it actually shifts gear while the clutch is being engaged/disengaged and does not wait for the clutch to disengage, then shift to the next gear and then engage again. The system works in parallel and not sequentially if you like.

That is not the same thing as the rather remarkable  properties you attributed to the Scud transmission in your other post above.

Can we take it  that the other views that you have expressed with such firm conviction and vehemence, for instance,  re  the merits of Ferrari cars compared with the McLaren F1, etc., are also just based on something some unnamed Ferrari engineer has explained in some unnamed publication, or similar?

fritz:

REALZEUS:
What I like with the F1 is that it gives you savagery. I don't like auto-style smooth gearchages in a hard core sportscar.

And that savagery has resulted in people having to replace the clutches of their F1 transmission cars within 20,000 km.    

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fritz

To be expected in a Ferrari (and most supercars for that matter)... it's not like supercars buyers are cash strapped...

fritz:

REALZEUS:
A Ferrari engineer (I think it is also mentioned on their official website) explained in a publication that the reason the F1 is that quick is that it actually shifts gear while the clutch is being engaged/disengaged and does not wait for the clutch to disengage, then shift to the next gear and then engage again. The system works in parallel and not sequentially if you like.

That is not the same thing as the rather remarkable  properties you attributed to the Scud transmission in your other post above.

 

Can we take it  that the other views that you have expressed with such firm conviction and vehemence, for instance,  re  the merits of Ferrari cars compared with the McLaren F1, etc., are also just based on something some unnamed Ferrari engineer has explained in some unnamed publication, or similar?

 

 

 

 

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fritz

On that last count, most definetely not! The views about the Enzo vs F1 that I have expressed are well documented and I have provided links and figures, unlike some of our fellow rennteamers.  About the transmission, I failed to make myself clear in the first place and clarification was the purpose of my last post, even though this is what I meant all along.

Here is Roberto Corradi, Ferrari Product Development Director, talking about the California. At around 2:07 mins he starts talking about the DCT gearbox and states that it can shift much faster than the F1 box and can in fact achieve a 0 millisecond shift as gears are always preselected by clutches on each opposite shaft.

ISUK:

Here is Roberto Corradi, Ferrari Product Development Director, talking about the California. At around 2:07 mins he starts talking about the DCT gearbox and states that it can shift much faster than the F1 box and can in fact achieve a 0 millisecond shift as gears are always preselected by clutches on each opposite shaft.

http://www.autocar.co.uk/VideosWallpapers/Videos.aspx?AR=233655&Page=7&CT=V

 

Well, now we only need to know, if the DCT will make it in their sportier cars like the F430-successor for example or if they'll only use it in cars like the California.
        

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I am still uncertain as to the advantage of the DCT over F1. Speed, reliability?

I assume the DCT would cost considerably more to manufacturer  and replace?

nberry:

I am still uncertain as to the advantage of the DCT over F1. Speed, reliability?

I assume the DCT would cost considerably more to manufacturer  and replace?

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nberry:

I am still uncertain as to the advantage of the DCT over F1. Speed, reliability?

I assume the DCT would cost considerably more to manufacturer  and replace?

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DCT gearboxes a la PDK or M-DKG are service free designs(NO clutch or fluid replacment at all in gearbox lifetime). Therefor technically speaking their design is stronger material wise then good manual or sequential manual. In fact most sequential manuals are artificially pushed to very upper limits of reliability.

YES. Manufactures cost are bigger and replacement cost as well since you CAN NOT service DCT. If it goes you need to replace it. Average lifetime of DCT should be in area of 200.00km-300.000km depending on your driving style. Just, some people needed to replace their DCT(DSG) on VW Golf GTI V after only 45.000kms due to failures. In the mean time most of production problems of DCTs were cured and right now it should be problem-free. If controlling software is done right DCT is much, much better thing then any sequential manual(Scud F1 Superfast included). It merges good manual and automatic at the same time and it works very, very nice indeed. Current SOTA in DCT development are PDKPorsche-made with ZF) and DCT in California(made by Getrag).

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Rossi:
Kreso, your guess for the F430 replacement: new DCT from California or still F1 Superfast from Scuderia?
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Excellent question!

Just, not an easy one... Let's look at things more in-depth... Audi introduced new R8 V10. Awsome car BTW and I will probably buy one-manual version. R Tronic although improved(90ms shifting speed in Sport mode) is far from something like PDK... IMHO same story about Scuderia F1 Superfast, it is on limit of reliability. Remember what happened to AMS test example of Scud? Ferrari stuff repaired everything except Superfast... It needs new gearbox... After 5400km of measurements and abuse by AMS stuff...

New 997.2 Turbo will hopefully have PDK as well so, IMO for F450 DCT is a MUST. Getrag DCT in California is on the same level as PDK, just tuned little differently... Just imagine F450 with DCT with five settings(winter, city, sport, track and CST off), latest gen of e-diff, DFI NA V8 with 500ps and maximally 1500kgs. Put me on the waiting list immediatly, even without knowing the final looks and even if it would cost 220K €!

KresoF1:

Rossi:
Kreso, your guess for the F430 replacement: new DCT from California or still F1 Superfast from Scuderia?
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 ... Just imagine F450 with DCT with five settings(winter, city, sport, track and CST off), latest gen of e-diff, DFI NA V8 with 500ps and maximally 1500kgs. Put me on the waiting list immediatly, even without knowing the final looks and even if it would cost 220K €!

 

Yummy! But the top must come down.

        

KresoF1:

Rossi:
Kreso, your guess for the F430 replacement: new DCT from California or still F1 Superfast from Scuderia?
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Excellent question!

Just, not an easy one... Let's look at things more in-depth... Audi introduced new R8 V10. Awsome car BTW and I will probably buy one-manual version. R Tronic although improved(90ms shifting speed in Sport mode) is far from something like PDK... IMHO same story about Scuderia F1 Superfast, it is on limit of reliability. Remember what happened to AMS test example of Scud? Ferrari stuff repaired everything except Superfast... It needs new gearbox... After 5400km of measurements and abuse by AMS stuff...

New 997.2 Turbo will hopefully have PDK as well so, IMO for F450 DCT is a MUST. Getrag DCT in California is on the same level as PDK, just tuned little differently... Just imagine F450 with DCT with five settings(winter, city, sport, track and CST off), latest gen of e-diff, DFI NA V8 with 500ps and maximally 1500kgs. Put me on the waiting list immediatly, even without knowing the final looks and even if it would cost 220K €!

KresoF1:

Rossi:
Kreso, your guess for the F430 replacement: new DCT from California or still F1 Superfast from Scuderia?
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Back again!  

Excellent question!

Just, not an easy one... Let's look at things more in-depth... Audi introduced new R8 V10. Awsome car BTW and I will probably buy one-manual version. R Tronic although improved(90ms shifting speed in Sport mode) is far from something like PDK... IMHO same story about Scuderia F1 Superfast, it is on limit of reliability. Remember what happened to AMS test example of Scud? Ferrari stuff repaired everything except Superfast... It needs new gearbox... After 5400km of measurements and abuse by AMS stuff...

New 997.2 Turbo will hopefully have PDK as well so, IMO for F450 DCT is a MUST. Getrag DCT in California is on the same level as PDK, just tuned little differently... Just imagine F450 with DCT with five settings(winter, city, sport, track and CST off), latest gen of e-diff, DFI NA V8 with 500ps and maximally 1500kgs. Put me on the waiting list immediatly, even without knowing the final looks and even if it would cost 220K €!

        

Exactly my thoughts.

Hope you are right...
        

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andrea:

KresoF1:

Rossi:
Kreso, your guess for the F430 replacement: new DCT from California or still F1 Superfast from Scuderia?
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Back again!  

Excellent question!

Just, not an easy one... Let's look at things more in-depth... Audi introduced new R8 V10. Awsome car BTW and I will probably buy one-manual version. R Tronic although improved(90ms shifting speed in Sport mode) is far from something like PDK... IMHO same story about Scuderia F1 Superfast, it is on limit of reliability. Remember what happened to AMS test example of Scud? Ferrari stuff repaired everything except Superfast... It needs new gearbox... After 5400km of measurements and abuse by AMS stuff...

New 997.2 Turbo will hopefully have PDK as well so, IMO for F450 DCT is a MUST. Getrag DCT in California is on the same level as PDK, just tuned little differently... Just imagine F450 with DCT with five settings(winter, city, sport, track and CST off), latest gen of e-diff, DFI NA V8 with 500ps and maximally 1500kgs. Put me on the waiting list immediatly, even without knowing the final looks and even if it would cost 220K €!

 

Kreso,from my source you can go on the waiting list :) weight not far from scuderia's weight

 

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Dedi La vita è troppo corta per non guidare italiano.....

Andrea, your source really says DCT? Would be great. In Fchat somebody said still F1, I hope he's wrong and your source is accurate.

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Rossi:

andrea:

KresoF1:

Rossi:
Kreso, your guess for the F430 replacement: new DCT from California or still F1 Superfast from Scuderia?
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Back again!  

Excellent question!

Just, not an easy one... Let's look at things more in-depth... Audi introduced new R8 V10. Awsome car BTW and I will probably buy one-manual version. R Tronic although improved(90ms shifting speed in Sport mode) is far from something like PDK... IMHO same story about Scuderia F1 Superfast, it is on limit of reliability. Remember what happened to AMS test example of Scud? Ferrari stuff repaired everything except Superfast... It needs new gearbox... After 5400km of measurements and abuse by AMS stuff...

New 997.2 Turbo will hopefully have PDK as well so, IMO for F450 DCT is a MUST. Getrag DCT in California is on the same level as PDK, just tuned little differently... Just imagine F450 with DCT with five settings(winter, city, sport, track and CST off), latest gen of e-diff, DFI NA V8 with 500ps and maximally 1500kgs. Put me on the waiting list immediatly, even without knowing the final looks and even if it would cost 220K €!

Kreso,from my source you can go on the waiting list :) weight not far from scuderia's weight

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Dedi La vita è troppo corta per non guidare italiano.....

Andrea, your source really says DCT? Would be great. In Fchat somebody said still F1, I hope he's wrong and your source is accurate.

        My source kept a bit of mistery around...he told about a great improvement...we will see :)

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Rossi:
Great improvement sounds promising.
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        NOT IMHO if it means F1 Superfast. If F450 will feature F1 Superfast I am not interested in it at all. DCT is a must IMO. Next Generation of R8/Gallardo will have DCT, Porsches as well...

KresoF1:

Rossi:
Great improvement sounds promising.
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        NOT IMHO if it means F1 Superfast. If F450 will feature F1 Superfast I am not interested in it at all. DCT is a must IMO. Next Generation of R8/Gallardo will have DCT, Porsches as well...

I think absolutely the same. Great improvement is DCT for me, F1 Superfast is NOT an improvement IMO.
        

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rossi... after owning my scuderia for 5 months, i am still soooo impreseed with the superfast 2, and i would soooo be happy if they carry it on on the 450, the gearbox is the best part of the scuderia! you so feel you are in a racing car, and thats the impression of each person that comes with me for a ride.. on the opposite, every dct i drove was a total disaster in terms of feeling! GTR, pdk porsche, dsg... all of the were simply  sensation free FASTER AUTOMATIC GEARBOX . 

i hope ferrari will be able to make on the 450 a dct that gives feeling and mechanical feel.. but i honestly doubt