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    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    function_analysi:
    Thx Cannga. Actually the link you've posted doesn't work, seems it's a bug of the new forum. Pls PM directly the appropriate url.
    --

    ------- MY07 997.1 GT3White, CS, PCCB, Full Leather/Alcantara in Black

    ------- MY07 997C2S --GONE

    You are welcome. It was my fault. I did not know how to use this odd Rennteam URL system and Eunice has just showed me how. Here we go:

    http://www.rennteam.com/forum/thread/20064454/Pics_of_Shattered_Dymag_Wheel__Report_of_Problem/page1.html

    At this point it might be a good idea to wait and see what the new HRE-Dymag combo wheel will be like. There have also been reports of air leak with some (not all) Dymag owners.

    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Cargraphic Exhaust (Exhilarating Sound!) + Bilstein PSS10 (Review)


    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    Cannga, the pixz of the destroyed rims are just terror on wheels. While I understand the extreme situation under which the centers failed I am completely convinced that I'll double think the Dymags. Probably after their partnership with HRE and even maybe.

    For the time being I plan to limit my temptations on the ERP parts I received directly from Tarett last Friday. Tomorrow (Monday) my GT3 goes in, hopefully I'll have her back no later than next Wednesday. Unless you feel that I mesh up your thread, I'll let you know how these superb items are working with the GT3 suspension.

    On another note could  you pls let us know the technic Eunice told you as to include links in our posts. Unfortunately I face exactly the same difficulty.
    --

    ------- MY07 997.1 GT3 White, CS, PCCB, Full Leather/Alcantara in Black

    ------- MY07 997C2S --GONE


    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    function_analysi:

    Cannga, the pixz of the destroyed rims are just terror on wheels. While I understand the extreme situation under which the centers failed I am completely convinced that I'll double think the Dymags. Probably after their partnership with HRE and even maybe.

    For the time being I plan to limit my temptations on the ERP parts I received directly from Tarett last Friday. Tomorrow (Monday) my GT3 goes in, hopefully I'll have her back no later than next Wednesday. Unless you feel that I mesh up your thread, I'll let you know how these superb items are working with the GT3 suspension.

    On another note could  you pls let us know the technic Eunice told you as to include links in our posts. Unfortunately I face exactly the same difficulty.
    --

     

    ------- MY07 997.1 GT3 White, CS, PCCB, Full Leather/Alcantara in Black

    ------- MY07 997C2S --GONE


    Of course! Please feel free to post your suspension mods here; you won't be  "messing up" anything. A lot of the information I gathered came from GT3 forums anyway and I am sure we could all learn from each other's experience.

    It seems to be the nature of Porsche owners to tinker with their cars and one thing I notice from reading numerous past postings on suspension is that it's the nature of Porsche owners to tinker with their cars, be it a Turbo, a GT3, or whatever. The Turbo guy wants to head towards GT3, the GT3 guys wants to aim for the Cup cars, and so on. The disease has no boundary and in the end, owning any 911 is indeed a privilege, the gift that keeps taking.Smiley


    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Cargraphic Exhaust (Exhilarating Sound!) + Bilstein PSS10 (Review)


    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    function_analysi:
    ....On another note could  you pls let us know the technic Eunice told you as to include links in our posts. Unfortunately I face exactly the same difficulty.
    --

    Go to the top of this page and look for that tiny little sign (see picture). Right click on the little chain link thing, then left click on “Copy Link Location”. Now you could use "Control-V" to paste the link in your message.

    The weird behavior overall is related to AJAX or something like that, that Eunice has explained and is way beyond my level of knowledge, or attention Smiley.


    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Cargraphic Exhaust (Exhilarating Sound!) + Bilstein PSS10 (Review)



    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    Quite magical Smiley...Thanks for the crash course Cannga Smiley
    --

    ------- MY07 997.1 GT3 White, CS, PCCB, Full Leather/Alcantara in Black

    ------- MY07 997C2S --GONE


    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    I wouldn't sweat too much about the broken dymag.. The conditions were unknown and in any case 60 track days on slicks is.. quite a test for any rim, let alone a carbon/magnesium one that definately needs more care. The proof is in the pudding so I am having a track day at paul ricard on sat with the latest spec of my car (675hp, completely revised suspension & slicks) and I will report the findings!

    Btw for whoever has followed this thread the GT2 intake is a really good mod. It made +20hp, but most importantly with less boost than before which is crucial for this engine. With no restrictions we actually got 1020+NM of torque but had to reduce it for safety to a more reasonable 860NM. The torque curve is very flat all the way to redline, very impressive. I think Porsche did their homework when they decided to completely change the philsophy of that intake. Its not only expanding but also a lot shorter.. Assuming one has a tuner that will tune the car, its well worth it for high hp applications.

    I will be driving the car tomorrow for the first time (with GT2 exhaust with 200cell, GT2 intake, new mapping based on latest (.4) Porsche release factory software) and will report results.

     


    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    Good to hear this GT re dymags. However I believe it's hard to find appropriate wheel design to fit the sui generis racing icon of the GT3. Sometimes I think I should stay with the OEMs some other times I feel I should go for the HRE's of cannga. Still don't know, that's for sure Smiley

    Anyway, tmrw I take delivery of my Tarett-modified beast, will report soon my experience with the new parts. BTW I upload a pdf explaining which parts have been changed versus the OEMs, hope this helps for future reference of any of the petrolheads to follow.


    --

    ------- MY07 997.1 GT3 White, CS, PCCB, Full Leather/Alcantara in Black

    ------- MY07 997C2S --GONE



    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    Unfortunately I can't open this pdf from my bberry.. My car has toe links, dog bones, gt3 cup front and rear lower control arms, thrust bushing front and rear, monoball in the rear only, gt3 sways. Imagine, all these parts objectively speaking made less of a difference than the dymags dis by themselves. Nothing to do with that specific brnad but taking 4kg off per side changes everything..

    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    Funny video from Bilstein:

    http://www.bilstein.de/cms_website/english/News/Videos/Movie_4/


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    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Cargraphic Exhaust (Exhilarating Sound!) + Bilstein PSS10 (Review)


    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    cannga:

    BTW, RSS, a company located in Southern California and incidentally the US distributor of Cargraphic Exhaust, has just released their version of the sway bar. Interestingly enough, the package comes with adjustable rear drop link and costs 600, as opposed to my GMG sway with rear Tarett drop link which costs 900 or so. The Tarett does look a bit more robust though, and definitely much prettier Smiley LOL.

    GMG's posting that is probably in response to the price issue -- please note I have no affiliation.

    I should also mention that in my opion, a stiffer sway bar is not necessarily the better one, despite of assertion by vendors otherwise. It depends on what *you* are looking for. For example if Sway Bar A setting is 30-50-70 stiffer than stock, and Sway Bar B is 20-30-40 siffter than stock, Sway Bar B might be better IF your preferred setting is 30, as it obviously gives more relevant range of adjustments.

    Again, while I like the effect of the sway bar, surprisingly not as much from reduced leaning, but from the tighter feel it gives to steering input (There is less free play/delayed response and this could be most easily felt when you gently rock the steering wheel back and forth.), I should caution about going for settings that are vastly different from stock values. Stiffer sway bar could affect ride significantly, especially the rear one. If you think about it, with road bump on just one wheel, a stiff sway bar acts to make your suspension behave as if it has a solid rear axle. So the theory of soft front/stiff rear to reduce understeer has not worked out for me, for example.

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/997-turbo-gt2/145819-gmg-sways-vs-h-r-sways-5.html
    Our sway bar kit is a matched front and rear specifically made for the 997TT.
    We went with Eibach as a manufacture for a few reasons they are world reknown in sway bar manufacturing,are TUV approved, use the highest quality steel and frankly build the best bars on the market. Additionally we have a long time relationship with Eibach as development partner for some of there products and they work very closely with us on our Speed GT program.


    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Cargraphic Exhaust (Exhilarating Sound!) + Bilstein PSS10 (Review)


    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    Cargraphic Airlift Suspension, available in the US from RSS-Road Sport Supply, US Cargraphic Distributor (the same people who installed my Cargraphic exhaust).

    System is a joint venture between Bilstein and Cargraphic and works on any 997 based Porsche, and apparently could be retrofitted to current Bilstein PSS10/Damptronic.
    Link: http://www.cargraphic.com/index.php?/o,article,4632/


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    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein PSS10 (Review) + Cargraphic Exhaust (Heavenly Race Car Noise Smiley Review)



    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    I am now contemplating a final change and that should be it: Toe out front, toe in rear. My tuner has said this a couple of times from the beginning and it seems Alex's first tuner (Parr) had independently done the same to his Turbo. I like to improve the Turbo's turn-in response and perhaps reduces its tendency to understeer (a recent extensive drive in a 2WD 997S confirmed this in no uncertain term).

    Also as posted in another thread: Up until now, I have not used the Bilstein Firm setting as it is simply not necessary in my daily drives on Los Angeles freeways to work. A recent drive with the LA Porsche Club on empty California back roads allowed the opportunity.

    The area is Santa Clarita, 30 minutes north of downtown LA. It is a FANTASTIC Porsche road, lots of curves with occasional straights that allow drivers to open up. Normally this kind of convoy club drive is boring but thankfully I was "accidentally" Smiley separated from the convoy  and most of the times there was only me and a Boxster behind me.

    This was the first time I used the Bilstein Firm (Sports) setting extensively and tested it in a proper environement -- empty curvy roads.  While I obviously will not have any objective number to prove Bilstein PASM Firm is indeed faster than Stock PASM Firm, subjectively it's really a night and day improvement. The key difference is this: While the Bilstein is firm, it is not jittery, and the rear has much less of a tendency to go airborne and walk sideways when you hit a mid-corner bump at high speed. Alex's tuner has likened the improve dampening to a more "creamy" action I believe, and that I agree wholeheartedly.

    The Turbo now handles curves, especially combination S shape left-right-left type curve, in a much more reassuring and competent manner. It doesn't stagger like it used to, at least at the speed that is safe for an amateur like me. During the drive I repeatedly changed between Firm and Normal to test, and am happy to report that finally there is PASM system that works as advertised: Both Normal and Firm and very much driveable, with Normal the choice while one is in big city mode, and Firm providing  a noticeably better response when the road beckons.

    08AE8641-2PSMain1200.jpg


    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein PSS10 (Review) + Cargraphic Exhaust (Heavenly Race Car Noise Smiley Review)


    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    Caanga I finally got the chance to try the car on a track, albeit on a wet and twards the end of the day semi-wet track. If you want to reduce understeer then I believe I have found the solution to your problem. Just change the front lower control arms the cup ones and increase neg. camber to -2.5deg. That will do the trick + increase noticeably steering feel. Summing up my day, turbo owners don't be phased by the "so called" experts that claim that the turbo is not a pure racer's car. As a some tuners have confided in the past, if you start putting in a turbo the components that P has chosen to put in the more allegedly "track oriented" models (GT3, GT2, RS, RSR, cup etc) then you have a car that with admittedly a power advantage, leaves all those cars for dust. To my suprise I was faster than all the above, even in pretty dump conditions with semi-slicks. As the truck was drying up the perf difference was getting a lot bigger. Also for the first time I was able to drive the car with PSM off constantly in the wet. The handling was really neutral, the suspension now mirrors the road and the drivers inputs instantly, it is working so much faster with those lighter wheels too. Am looking to try the car now in hopefully totally dry conditions in the coming weeks and I ll report the findings.

    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    Many thanks GT for your very good report; as W.Röhrl said the " The Turbo is like a beauty dressed in big blouse" , we are trying to undress herSmiley

    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    GT:
    Caanga I finally got the chance to try the car on a track, albeit on a wet and twards the end of the day semi-wet track. If you want to reduce understeer then I believe I have found the solution to your problem. Just change the front lower control arms the cup ones and increase neg. camber to -2.5deg. That will do the trick + increase noticeably steering feel. Summing up my day, turbo owners don't be phased by the "so called" experts that claim that the turbo is not a pure racer's car. As a some tuners have confided in the past, if you start putting in a turbo the components that P has chosen to put in the more allegedly "track oriented" models (GT3, GT2, RS, RSR, cup etc) then you have a car that with admittedly a power advantage, leaves all those cars for dust. To my suprise I was faster than all the above, even in pretty dump conditions with semi-slicks. As the truck was drying up the perf difference was getting a lot bigger. Also for the first time I was able to drive the car with PSM off constantly in the wet. The handling was really neutral, the suspension now mirrors the road and the drivers inputs instantly, it is working so much faster with those lighter wheels too. Am looking to try the car now in hopefully totally dry conditions in the coming weeks and I ll report the findings.

    Thanks for sharing. I am jealous of your experiments and experience!  Sounds to me like you are having a blast; and a FAST one at that. Smiley While it doesn't surprise me, it's amazing to think you could tune the Turbo to become such a track monster, and here I am half the world away cruising the same "baby" on congested Los Angeles freeways.

    The negative camber: Yes I know.  I haven't done it because I drive this car daily so there is some desire to leave the car closer to stock than a track setting. Have you found tire wear to be a problem with that camber setting? (I know I know - who cares about tire wear.)

    Are you using the Michelin cup tire to drive around town? If so, what's your experience? Is it strictly "NO GO"/dangerous when it rains? How about when the road is slightly moist, as in early morning sometimes here in LA? I am thinking of experimenting with cup tires when my set wears out.


           


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    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein PSS10 (Review) + Cargraphic Exhaust (Heavenly Race Car Noise Smiley Review)


    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    Caanga I am using Corsas not cups. No problem in the rain whatsoever, it sounds to me that this is the tyre for you with the ype of usage you describe. Don't worry about the negative camber. -2.5 is not too aggressive and its very inspiring on the road. As long as you correct the toe then tyre wear is not an issue. So if I were you I would change the front lower control arms to the cup ones, put the gmg bushing in them and that's it for the front. This is a factory part and its a lot better than the stock one. Then you can dial in as much camber as you want. Also change the toe links in the rear. That has a dramatic effect on the feeling of rear axle under load. Big difference without too much compromise in ride quality. I can assure you that these 2 mods will be very good value for money! But I have to also warn you; you are NOT going to stop there afterwards!

    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    Picture from LA Auto Show, with illustrations of the components that some of us have upgraded. The degree of modding varies; for example I have done only the sway bar and drop link, whereas GT scores a perfect 10. Smiley You could actually see some these things if you just look under your car. First the rear: 1229040232973suspension rear 1200 08AE8746.jpg
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    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein PSS10 (Review) + Cargraphic Exhaust (Heavenly Race Car Noise Smiley Review)


    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    Another view of rear suspension (coilover not illustrated). Perhaps I am a tad on the strange side, but I find these pictures SO pretty. Smiley

    08AE8742.jpg


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    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein PSS10 (Review) + Cargraphic Exhaust (Heavenly Race Car Noise Smiley Review)


    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    1229103098791suspension front label 1200 08AE8741.jpg

    The front suspension -- LA Auto Show. Some of these labels are my guesses -- I should be close but correction welcome! Smiley Components could be seen here:

    Nice picture and explanation of lower control arm and shim: http://www.tarett.com/items/996-997-products/gt3-control-arm-kit-996-997-986-987-lcakit-detail.htm

    Tarett Engineering Stuffs

    GMG Racing: http://www.gmgracing.com/porsche_suspension.shtml


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    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein PSS10 (Review) + Cargraphic Exhaust (Heavenly Race Car Noise Smiley Review)


    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    GT:
    Caanga I am using Corsas not cups. No problem in the rain whatsoever, it sounds to me that this is the tyre for you with the ype of usage you describe. Don't worry about the negative camber. -2.5 is not too aggressive and its very inspiring on the road. As long as you correct the toe then tyre wear is not an issue. So if I were you I would change the front lower control arms to the cup ones, put the gmg bushing in them and that's it for the front. This is a factory part and its a lot better than the stock one. Then you can dial in as much camber as you want. Also change the toe links in the rear. That has a dramatic effect on the feeling of rear axle under load. Big difference without too much compromise in ride quality. I can assure you that these 2 mods will be very good value for money! But I have to also warn you; you are NOT going to stop there afterwards!

    1. What are your toe settings front and rear please?

    As far as the tires, intriguing indeed as I think of it it's a free experiment. This is one of those things that I just want to try once to see what it feels like, though current tires are more than enough for my amateur level I believe.

    2. Any particular reason you picked Pirelli Corsa over Michelin Cup?
    3. Does the Corsa feel much more harsh and noisier than the street tire?
    4. Does it make a big difference at street level driving as far as cornering and handling?

    TIA



    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein PSS10 (Review) + Cargraphic Exhaust (Heavenly Race Car Noise Smiley Review)


    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    Can't remember the toe setting but they were not too far from zero. I ve lost my spec sheet but am going to ask for a copy and let you know. Noise is similar u think but to be honest am not paying too much attention to this.. Chose Corsa because a. they came highly recommended by 2 friends with modded tts that have hemm.. a heavy foot! and they preferred it to the cups for street driving. Having said that my tuner says the cups are better on the track. Mainly though the corsa, while still a semi slick, its a bit more of an all around tyre; better in wet, almost as good in dry And lasts longer. Compared to the normal tyres (had bridgestones from factory) the corsa is night and day in street and track driving. As an example, same car, same power, was fishtailing 4th gear on a given road with the bridgestones, not a hint with corsas..

    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    Canga, I thought you'd be interested in a couple of things out of my experience with the Corsas I had been using on my GT3.

    Firstly, bear in mind that I followed the opposite route, i.e. I switched to 'normal' PS2s N1 after my OEM Corsas were burnt out at ~15k kms. More precisely although at first glance the rear tires seemed healthy enough to run another 15k Kms, I took them off when I noticed there was no inner tread, mainly due to the negative camber. What's more I need to point out that my GT3 had been tracked just for a three rounds photoshooting session and that was all.

    BTW, the front tires after 15k kms had but the slightest signs of tread wear. However, point is that the rubber part of the tire had started washing out, turning to a greyish white from the original matt black color. Besides, the tread walls were aging with a handful of dry craks on them.

    I can give you no clue re the Corsas over the Cups. Yet in terms of noise level the PS2s are the next quiter thing to the sound of silence as opposed to the semi-racing Corsas, so the answer to your third question is 'YES THEY FEEL MUCH MUCH MORE harsh and noisier', at least than the PS2s.

    As more harsh and louder they feel that much capable of serving the GT3 attributes they are. Differences at cornering are obvious from the first drive. Whereas the softer PS2s shoulders allow for a good deal of wall deformation at hard cornering the Corsas feel as if they were made out of stone. In a fictitious responsiveness scale Corsas are the 100%, PS2s fall behind to 70-75%. But when it comes to wet driving you have to completely forget your peace of mind as the low tread depth combined with the tire width make the Corsas prone to aquaplanning even at speeds that would be considered unacceptable low to other tires.

     ONTF to mention that my GT3 has been Tarett moded with the usual dogbones, front tie rods w/bump steer, lower control arm metallic monoballs and rear toe control arm w/bump steer, but not with the drop links and the sway bars. Don't take it as a counterweight to the gelly responsiveness of the PS2s, these parts bring one step forward the tires' weakest performance area compared to the Corsas virtu.

    To cut a long story short I have no regrets for downshifting to the PS2s. The Michelins fit perfectly my routine driving style that is very fast at highways combined with backroads, away from track days. And if one day I decide to hit the local tracks I'll only take some serious slick tire options instead of the semi-racing Corsas.

    Hope this helps, feel free to ask more Smiley

    As far as the tires, intriguing indeed as I think of it it's a free experiment. This is one of those things that I just want to try once to see what it feels like, though current tires are more than enough for my amateur level I believe.

    2. Any particular reason you picked Pirelli Corsa over Michelin Cup?
    3. Does the Corsa feel much more harsh and noisier than the street tire?
    4. Does it make a big difference at street level driving as far as cornering and handling?

    TIA



    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein PSS10 (Review) + Cargraphic Exhaust (Heavenly Race Car Noise Smiley Review)



    --

    ------- MY07 997.1 GT3 White, CS, PCCB, Full Leather/Alcantara in Black

    ------- MY07 997C2S --GONE


    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    GT & F.A.:

    Thanks for the very helpful and detailed replies. My curiosity is piqued enough that I think I am going to give this a try when my PS2 tires need replacement. I DO feel a difference in my car with as little as 1-2 psi tire pressure difference so I think I would learn interesting things from this trial.
    The good thing is even if I don't like it, the experiment will last probably only 6 months at my rate of driving -- 10 k miles a year?
    The bad thing is with this tire I probably won't take the car out when it rains -- and I think I will be fairly miserable when that happens.Smiley

    GT,

    Going over your posts, I saw that you mentioned RS Engine Mount. You really are off-the-charts "bad" influence. Smiley Care to share your experience; where you get the thing from? Installation difficulty? Noise problem with the rigid mount? Is this THE TOY here: http://www.carnewal-europe.com/cpx_p96189.htm

    Rennsport Motor Mounts for P96/P97
    These are the motor mounts from the P93 Rennsport version combined with the correct hardware so these motor mounts can be installed in any P96. They replace the original motor mounts without any further modification.

    Due to the reduced amount of rubber in the motor mount, they are an excellent upgrade for the standard or hard rubber motor mounts. With these motor mounts, the whole car will feel more solid and the shifting will be much more precise. 
    A must for cars with lowered suspension.

    Price : 295 Euro.

    Will fit every P96/P97.

    Contact us for more information

    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein PSS10 (Review) + Cargraphic Exhaust (Heavenly Race Car Noise Smiley Review)


    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    Hey Caanga, yes these seem to be the ones. The rear axle get a bit more rigid which is a good thing since the factory car is way too wobbly from stock. So do get them from Gert. And while you're at it, ask for the Cup car linkage (connection between gearbox and gear change mechanism) Smiley. I heard this is a very good upgrade sinc it eliminates completely the manual gearbox slack..

    Look, whatever you do, will stiffen the car a bit. However I can assure you of this; if you end up eliminating most of the rubber bushings with all those components I and and others have been discussing here, then with a good alignment your car will be completely different. This car petrified me in stock form to drive very fast in the dry when i bought it.. And this is the 4th tt I have. Now last w/e i drove it in the wet at silverstone with +150hp with PSM off.. The car becomes 100% more predictable at or beyond traction limit. Basically its a new car. (remember the excellence test of the GMG car? it had all these components and they said they liked more than even the GT3RS in terms of handling.. only with 150+hp more.)

    Start with toe links and if you like the difference then do everything else.

    Re Corsas in the rain its not a real problem. FA above is using as a point of reference roads in greece which have completely different traction cahracteristics than LA. Basically dry over there is usually a lot worse than even wet in continental europe. So you will be driving your car in the rain with Corsas; i just did 600 miles in storm conditions in the highway in france, while also went flat out in the wet on the track. They are 15-20% worse then the PS2s if you go crazy in the wet (which you should not anyway).


    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    GT,

    Thanks for sharing your considerable experience. Smiley

    For tires, when current tires are worn out, Pirelli Corsa experiment it will be then!
    I look forwards to this and detailed  amateur Smiley analysis will be forthcoming.


    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein PSS10 (Review) + Cargraphic Exhaust (Heavenly Race Car Noise Smiley Review)


    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    I ran across this very nice amateur level advertisement article from a worthy Bilstein Competitor - KW Suspension. Of note is the reference to and distinction made between Low Speed and High Speed Bump -- the part I underline -- that I alluded to in the first post of this long thread. I believe that stiffness with Low Speed Bump is beneficial (less front-rear weight transfer with acceleration and braking, less roll in corner) whereas stiffness with High Speed Bump is NOT (harsh ride from road surface imperfections, car going airborne when hitting bump). I imagine the million dollar question is how to separate the 2, but that is way beyond the level of my knowledge.

    http://www.kw-suspension.co.uk/suspension-explained.htm

    Explanation of Centre of Gravity movement and suspension movement and effects.

    DEFINITIONS -

    Bump = When a spring is made to compress.
    This is also broken down into -
    Low Speed Bump = Slow compression on the spring such as acceleration, cornering and braking.
    and
    High Speed Bump = Fast compression of the spring such as kerbs or potholes.

    Rebound = When a spring is made to expand.

    EXPLANATION

    When a car is travelling along the road in a stable condition at a steady speed in a straight line the suspension and springs will be in a state of equilibrium although the springs will have some load already on them due to the weight of the car on each corner.
    Things that affect the dampers and springs are acceleration, cornering and braking, but also kerbs and pot holes, or anything that creates a movement effect on the wheels or the car chassis.

    ACCELERATION

    When a car accelerates the front will tend to lift and the rear will tend to drop. Partly due to the Centre Of Gravity(COG) being affected by it's inertia and trying to stay where it is when the wheels are trying to push it forward. Ever seen a motorcycle do a wheely, this is where the power of the bike combined with inertia of the COG overcomes the weight on the front wheel. Even on a lower power bike the rider can just give a tug on the handlebars as he accelerates and this will be enough to pull the COG back over the rear wheel as the bike moves forward. This is an extreme example and not generally seen on a car because of the relatively low power to weight ratio. Unless - it has massive power to weight ratio such as on a dragster.
    The effects are low speed rebound on the front and low speed bump on the rear.

    CORNERING

    When a car enters a corner, the COG will want to move towards the outside of the corner and will cause the car to try to roll over and if the car had a sufficiently high COG with a narrow track it probably would. Thankfully sports and high performance cars are designed to have a low COG and apart from in extreme circumstances the COG remains inside the wheelbase and track. So the car will simply roll within that area causing the outside suspension to compress and the inside suspension to expand.
    So in a corner the outside suspension is subject to low speed bump and the inside suspension is subject to rebound.

    BRAKING

    When a car brakes, the front will tend to dive towards the road and the rear will tend to lift as the COG is trying to carry on moving forward over the front wheels which of course are trying to slow down. Because of this another effect is that the COG (or weight) moves closer to the front axle and so the front tyres take more of the braking force, in extreme circumstances this could be up to 80% or even 90% of the braking effeciency. This is one of the reasons that the rear wheels will lock so much easier than the front, as the braking force between the pad and disc becomes greater than the frictional force between the tyre and the road and this can end up in a skid.

    How is this related to KW suspension kits.

    ON THE ROAD

    Where you have adjustable bump and rebound on a suspension kit it means that you can alter the amount of damping for each type of driving situation, for instance if the car is being driven mainly on the public road it can be set up for a softer ride so that acceleration, cornering and braking are slightly more comfortable not only for the driver but also for the car and this will give the suspension and fittings of the car a longer life.

    ON THE TRACK

    When on a track the suspension can be set up to be a bit harder as the track is usually a lot smoother than a public road so the emphasis is on resistance to movement of the suspension and this will help to control the chassis in pitch and roll situations. Which means that the car is kept under better control especially when cornering and braking.

    The KW suspension has a high speed bump setting which is set at the factory, what this means is that although the low speed bump can be set fairly hard, the high speed bump will allow some movement in the damper should the wheel encounter something that would otherwise jar the suspension, such as a kerb on a track or a pothole on the public road.

    So with KW suspension it isn't so much a compromise as having the best of both worlds.


    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein PSS10 (Review) + Cargraphic Exhaust (Heavenly Race Car Noise Smiley Review)


    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    Can someone tell me what I need to get in terms of parts and what setting need to be dialed in in english?
    --
    Im The Panda Man!

    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    PandaMan:
    Can someone tell me what I need to get in terms of parts and what setting need to be dialed in in english?
    --
    Im The Panda Man!

    Haven't you been following this concise thread? Smiley The details were posted on page 1, 4, 9, and 13! Kidding... Each of us adds slightly different things, but everyone starts with the Bilstein B16 Damptronic.

    1. Front camber adjustment to reduce push/understeer. Stock is -.4 or so, a common target is about -1.3. So this is what you tell your tuner: "Keep every alignment stock, except bring front camber to minus 1.3."

    2. Bilstein B16 Damptronic. There are 2 versions, the B16 Damptronic and the B16 PSS10 (note that even I got confused with the nomenclature -- the title of this thread is in fact wrong). You want the Bilstein B16 Damptronic. I got mine at www.vividracing.com.  The lowest price I've seen is 2500. Tell your tuner, as a start: Drop both front and rear equally, 1 cm from stock. If you want lower, then tell him 2 cm. Don't go lower than that.

    3. Anti Roll Bar, either H&R or GMG. I believe www.vividracing.com  has both. Tell your tuner: Use the middle hole both front and rear.

    4a. Some of us use Tarett front and rear drop links, some don't. http://www.tarett.com/items/996-997-products/996-rear-drop-link-set-996rdlnk-detail.htm

    4b. Rear toe control arm or toe link. Available at http://www.tarett.com/items/996-997-products/996-986-987-rear-t-control-arm-pr-996tlnk-detail.htm  or http://www.gmgracing.com/porsche_suspension.shtml .

    To start out, I would pick 1, 2, and 3, then see how you like it. If it's still not too stiff/harsh for you, I would add either 4a or 4b. Modding in 2 stages is not a bad idea -- it really only adds about  US $150-200 to the installation (cost of the extra alignment) and is an extremely entertaining and valuable learning experience. Remember nothing comes free -- everything you add will most likely make the car more fun, at the cost of NVH.
    I have 1, 2, 3 and 4a. I plan to add 4b if I feel the itch. Some of us have less -- eclou only has the Bilstein, some more -- GT has everything under the sun Smiley.

    Good luck and if my criticism of the stock Turbo's behavior on the first post of this thread applies to you -- you will absolutely love the change.



    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein PSS10 (Review) + Cargraphic Exhaust (Heavenly Race Car Noise Smiley Review)


    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    Agree with caanga's observations above. A couple of additions;

    - Toe links should probably be further up the priority list since they make a very noticeable difference.

    - in my experience -1.5 camber front is not enough for this car (especially with heavy wheels), so i think around -2.5 is better. So changing to CUP lower control arms for the front, that lets you dial in as much as you want and is a factory stonger part, is a good idea. The equivalent rear cup arm also comes with solid bushing and monoball (better response of rear axle) and also allows more camber if needed (I have -2.5 rear too).

    - Rear dog bones are good too

    - Re sways, I have GT3 ones but the other are other options shat might be equally good or better. The tarret links add to road harshness but also add to steering directness. I just took them off for city driving and there is a difference.

    - Light wheels (very light if possible) is a must since the car is heavy and the inherent understeer is noticeably improved/corrected with those. Also the suspension works much faster if u take off considerable weight. Hence PSSBs and wheels are v important imo in that respect.

    hope that helps.

    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    cannga:

    I ran across this very nice amateur level advertisement article from a worthy Bilstein Competitor - KW Suspension. Of note is the reference to and distinction made between Low Speed and High Speed Bump -- the part I underline -- that I alluded to in the first post of this long thread. I believe that stiffness with Low Speed Bump is beneficial (less front-rear weight transfer with acceleration and braking, less roll in corner) whereas stiffness with High Speed Bump is NOT (harsh ride from road surface imperfections, car going airborne when hitting bump). I imagine the million dollar question is how to separate the 2, but that is way beyond the level of my knowledge.

    http://www.kw-suspension.co.uk/suspension-explained.htm

    Explanation of Centre of Gravity movement and suspension movement and effects.

    DEFINITIONS -

    Bump = When a spring is made to compress.
    This is also broken down into -
    Low Speed Bump = Slow compression on the spring such as acceleration, cornering and braking.
    and
    High Speed Bump = Fast compression of the spring such as kerbs or potholes.

    Rebound = When a spring is made to expand.


    --

    Regards,
    Can



    BTW, the "speed" refers to is the shaft speed of the shock absorber,  NOT the car's speed.

    This is why the PASM Firm setting does what it does. When you push that button, what happens is the Low Speed Compression damping force of the dampener/shock absorber is raised  -- this is a good thing. Car doesn't lean as much in corner, doesn't squat as much with acceleration, and doesn't dive as much with braking, etc..

    But.. what also happens is, at the same time High Speed Compression damping is also raised such that you feel every little bumps and pot holes on the road and the car becomes impossible except on the smoothest of roads.

    In an ideal world, I imagine the 2 parameters are totally separated. How that is done and whether it's possible are way beyond the scope of my amateur level discussion and understanding Smiley. Perhaps this is where the Bilstein's shock absorber is different from stock.



    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein PSS10 (Review) + Cargraphic Exhaust (Heavenly Race Car Noise Smiley Review)


     
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