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    Re: REPORT: Suspension upgrades with Bilstein + GM

    One of the things that Bilstein had told me during my many calls to them LOL, and that I didn't "dare" to mention before because it's so outside of my range of knowledge/expertise that I could be wrong, is that there is continuous adjustment to the dampening in the dampeners (for those new to this: coilover has 2 parts, the dampener and the spring) ACCORDING TO SPEED. I believe (not sure), that a slow speed, the dampening is high, at high speed, low. This would be consistent with your observation.

    I see the same behavior in my car. Don't know if this is what you are talking about, but for example, at freeway speed, the car is almost glacially smooth, yet at less than 10 mph, speed bumps, etc., cause a big jump. I did not think much of this until reading your post recently. Astute observation on your part.

    Any expert on PASM please correct me as necessary.

    Quote:
    Alex_997TT said:
    The only thing that I am a little concerned with is the stiffness of the car over rough terrain, especially when going slow.



    Re: REPORT: Suspension upgrades with Bilstein + GM

    Although my Bisteins and other mods rock, I am not convinced about the geometry settings I have. 

    The front end feels lighter than before, more 'twichy' in the corners and under heavy acceleration you almost have to fight the steering wheel if on a slight bend.  It just feels like it's got less front end grip.

    Perhaps the setup is perfect and it's just my driving style that needs to adapt?!  Or perhaps it's the colder, wetter roads this time of the year in combination with the new PS2 tyres is making it feel that way?

    I really wish I knew what my old 'Parr' setup was but they won't tell me.  Suppose it would be different now anyway that my car is lowered with the Bilsteins.

    What do you reckon the chances are of Cargraphic tell me their setup for their RSC Turbo??

    Suppose I should wait until next spring/summer when I get the car on the track before I make a final verdict....



    --
    MY2008 997 Turbo - Cargraphic stage II powerkit (544PS/798Nm) | HRE P40's | Bilstein Damptronics | GMC Sway/Toe-steer/Dog-bone kits

    Re: REPORT: Suspension upgrades with Bilstein + GM

    Your car will actually have more front end grip than before and less understeer. The nose is more eager to turn than before and it is something that may take some getting used to. If you don't feel comfortable you can ask them to adjust the toe slightly to reduce that.
    --

    track vid

    0-300kph

    chasing a 997GT2




    Re: REPORT: Suspension upgrades with Bilstein + GM

    eclou:
    Your car will actually have more front end grip than before and less understeer. The nose is more eager to turn than before and it is something that may take some getting used to. If you don't feel comfortable you can ask them to adjust the toe slightly to reduce that.
    --


    Is your geometry set-up similar to mine then?

    Your 700bhp is monstrous on that mile straight - 29 seconds to 300kph is simply AWESOME Smiley I am sure you could get way more if you sacrified your clutch on the start line.


    --
    MY2008 997 Turbo - Cargraphic stage II powerkit (544PS/798Nm) | HRE P40's | Bilstein Damptronics | GMC Sway/Toe-steer/Dog-bone kits

    Re: REPORT: Suspension upgrades with Bilstein + GM

    Alex, I have almost exactly the same alignment specs. Those specs are the GT3 "street" specs. The car may feel slightly more nervous than before and tend to "tramline" on rain grooves but when taken to canyon carving roads the pay-off is clear.

     The 0-300kph run was also into a 35kph headwind, and with PSM left "on". I think I could have knocked off a couple seconds  with PSM "off", a hard launch, and no stiff headwind. Maybe next time?



    --

    track vid

    0-300kph

    chasing a 997GT2




    Re: REPORT: Suspension upgrades with Bilstein + GM


    I really wish I knew what my old 'Parr' setup was but they won't tell me. 


    Hi Alex, please check with your installer (Center Gravity) to see what I am about to say is true, but I think you might already have the answer regarding the "secret" Parr setup. In fact have posted it in this thread.

    Although Parr is not telling you their "trade secret" alignment settings, all it takes is to put the car on an alignment rack and measures the alignment settings, no?
    And here the plot thickens, please see enclosed picture. The Beissbarth Alignment system that Center Gravity uses gives 2 readings in its report: final measurement, and more importantly, initial measurement. Wouldn't the initial measurement in fact be the very same Parr settings that you are looking for?

    And, if this is the case -- if I am right -- you posted them in this thread! I saw those readings back then, do remember some of the initial measurements were not equal left to right, as if they are out of alignment or something. But this I am not sure, maybe Chris of Center Gravity could explain for us what those initial measurement values mean?



    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Cargraphic Exhaust (Exhilarating Sound!) + Bilstein PSS10 (Review)



    Re: REPORT: Suspension upgrades with Bilstein + GM

    The reason I am not sure what the INITIAL MEASUREMENT of your car is:  It has some real discrepancies between left and right. Look at rear camber (-2 vs. -1.4), rear toe (4.7 vs. 3.8), front camber (-1.1 vs. +.5), and front toe (-2.5 vs. -.8). I don't know why they are off so much and therefore don't know what they represent.

    Assuming my theory is correct, that your car's initial measurement = Parr settings, the secret ingredient for Parr is not that big of a trade secret: It is the same as what my installer has been proposing to me as the next step -- I mentioned this in my Bilstein thread: Toe Out in front (to improve corner turn-in response), and Toe In in rear (to decrease oversteer and a happy/twitchy rear end).

    http://www.ozebiz.com.au/racetech/theory/align.html
    Toe-out encourages the initiation of a turn, while toe-in discourages it.

    Would be nice to know what Chris of Center Gravity has to say. Any comment, eclou?


    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Cargraphic Exhaust (Exhilarating Sound!) + Bilstein PSS10 (Review)



    Re: REPORT: Suspension upgrades with Bilstein + GM

    Can - if you recall the whole reason I decided to take the plunge into suspension upgrades was because I SEVERELY knocked out my geometry going very fast down a cobbled twisty mountain road in Switzerland on my honeymoon.  The car was almost undrivable after that.

    So I have no idea which of the 4 wheels were still to Parr specifications if any.


    --
    MY2008 997 Turbo - Cargraphic stage II powerkit (544PS/798Nm) | HRE P40's | Bilstein Damptronics | GMC Sway/Toe-steer/Dog-bone kits

    Re: REPORT: Suspension upgrades with Bilstein + GM

    Alex_997TT:

    Can - if you recall the whole reason I decided to take the plunge into suspension upgrades was because I SEVERELY knocked out my geometry going very fast down a cobbled twisty mountain road in Switzerland on my honeymoon.  The car was almost undrivable after that.

    So I have no idea which of the 4 wheels were still to Parr specifications if any.


    --
    MY2008 997 Turbo - Cargraphic stage II powerkit (544PS/798Nm) | HRE P40's | Bilstein Damptronics | GMC Sway/Toe-steer/Dog-bone kits

    Yes I remember now. Wow how fast were you going? Tripple digit?

    Just for the sake of discussion: By looking at the values and making some reasonable assumptions (rear wheels not affected as much, right front is the one that got knocked severely out of alignment), I still would think Parr settings are not so different from what other tuners do:

    1. Rear negative camber same as stock Turbo, front negative camber same as GT3 "street alignment" value of -1.2. This we already do.
    2. Front toe out about -2, rear toe in about +4. This is the part missing from your current setting.

    Number 2 will make for a more responsive turn-in behavior, but may also make car wander on freeways and of course causes uneven tire wear. My Porsche shop has told me a couple times it makes the car a lot more fun. I'll probably print your report and show it to him next time I see him. If you decide to ask Chris about my "theory" about Parr settings, I would be very interested in hearing what he has to say.

    PS: Saw picture of your car's rear bumper; I feel your pain. Hope you won't have to re-paint the whole rear end?


    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Cargraphic Exhaust (Exhilarating Sound!) + Bilstein PSS10 (Review)


    Re: REPORT: Suspension upgrades with Bilstein + GM

    FL set mine up with -1.5 fr/-2.1 rear and a touch of toe, sways set in the middle f/r. The rest is a 'trade secret' according to Farnbacher-Loles, they wouldn't even give me a printout!
    --
    Chris '07 997 TT Midnight on Sea '03 996 C4S gone

    Re: REPORT: Suspension upgrades with Bilstein + GM

    TT Surgeon:
    FL set mine up with -1.5 fr/-2.1 rear and a touch of toe, sways set in the middle f/r. The rest is a 'trade secret' according to Farnbacher-Loles, they wouldn't even give me a printout!
    --
    Chris '07 997 TT Midnight on Sea '03 996 C4S gone
    Straight down an independent tyre shop then for a free alignment 'check' :)

    --

    Click for bigger picture!


    Re: REPORT: Suspension upgrades with Bilstein + GM

    cannga:
    Alex_997TT:

    Can - if you recall the whole reason I decided to take the plunge into suspension upgrades was because I SEVERELY knocked out my geometry going very fast down a cobbled twisty mountain road in Switzerland on my honeymoon.  The car was almost undrivable after that.

    So I have no idea which of the 4 wheels were still to Parr specifications if any.


    --
    MY2008 997 Turbo - Cargraphic stage II powerkit (544PS/798Nm) | HRE P40's | Bilstein Damptronics | GMC Sway/Toe-steer/Dog-bone kits

    Yes I remember now. Wow how fast were you going? Tripple digit?

    Just for the sake of discussion: By looking at the values and making some reasonable assumptions (rear wheels not affected as much, right front is the one that got knocked severely out of alignment), I still would think Parr settings are not so different from what other tuners do:

    1. Rear negative camber same as stock Turbo, front negative camber same as GT3 "street alignment" value of -1.2. This we already do.
    2. Front toe out about -2, rear toe in about +4. This is the part missing from your current setting.

    Number 2 will make for a more responsive turn-in behavior, but may also make car wander on freeways and of course causes uneven tire wear. My Porsche shop has told me a couple times it makes the car a lot more fun. I'll probably print your report and show it to him next time I see him. If you decide to ask Chris about my "theory" about Parr settings, I would be very interested in hearing what he has to say.

    PS: Saw picture of your car's rear bumper; I feel your pain. Hope you won't have to re-paint the whole rear end?


    - at least 70 (notice I am not saying kph/mph!) down to cobbled hairpins.  It was the hard breaking at the corners that I think did it.

    - the biggest thing right now is how much lighter the steering feels.  Almost nervous, but VERY responsive.  Chris has offered me a free 1-2k miles alignment check-up, so I will take it up to see him in a few weeks when I get time.

    - yeh, the Police were useless and didn't find the guy that hit me.  So I will be going the cheaper route and just repairing instead of replacing.  Should be ok though, but still not happy!


    --

    Click for bigger picture!


    Re: REPORT: Suspension upgrades with Bilstein + GM

    Just installed the GT2 rear sway bar, it is a 26mm bar with 3 adjustments. The first hole aligns with the stock turbo bar, then there are two more softer adjustments. I have it set in the middle hole and it feels pretty good so far, this is the same setup as Ruf . Hopefully I'll get to try it on the track soon, report to follow.
    --

    Doug

    Houston, Texas USA 

    997TT


    Re: REPORT: Suspension upgrades with Bilstein + GM

    Alex_997TT:

    - at least 70 (notice I am not saying kph/mph!) down to cobbled hairpins.  It was the hard breaking at the corners that I think did it.

    - the biggest thing right now is how much lighter the steering feels.  Almost nervous, but VERY responsive.  Chris has offered me a free 1-2k miles alignment check-up, so I will take it up to see him in a few weeks when I get time.

    --

    LOL. I don't mean to imply that the incident is "funny" in any way, but I got a chuckle out of imagining your Turbo zipping through the cobbled hairpins at speed. I am surprised your wife let you do that.

    If possible, please ask Chris if my guess of -2 front toe out and +4 rear toe in is within the ball park. I mean I know the secret is slight front toe out + slight rear toe in, but I don't know what "slight" translates to numerically, and no one wants to "talk." Maybe I need to get some "truth serum" from work and give it to my tuner. Smiley


    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein PSS10 (Review) + Cargraphic Exhaust (Heavenly Race Car Noise Smiley Review)


    Re: REPORT: Suspension upgrades with Bilstein + GM

    Chris is going to get me a quote for the new Bilstein product that can raise the car up for speed bumps.  Apparently easy to retrofit to Damptronics.

    Can, Chris also said he was going to read through this thread and give you some answers to your questions...


    --

    Click for bigger picture!


    Re: REPORT: Suspension upgrades with Bilstein + GM

    Guys I now have -2.5 camber front and rear and the steering for the first time feels as heavy as it should be.. Give it a try, I think this is the cure. Alex do let us know about this new bilstein product. I am also interested!

    Re: REPORT: Suspension upgrades with Bilstein + GM

    GT:
    Guys I now have -2.5 camber front and rear and the steering for the first time feels as heavy as it should be.. Give it a try, I think this is the cure. Alex do let us know about this new bilstein product. I am also interested!

    Thanks!

    Info on the Cargraphic websiteabout the Bilstein Airlift suspension...



    --

    Click for bigger picture!


    Re: REPORT: Suspension upgrades with Bilstein + GM

    Alex, keep us updated, this is a mod I am interested in also......

    Re: REPORT: Suspension upgrades with Bilstein + GM

    TB993tt:
    Alex, keep us updated, this is a mod I am interested in also......

    Will do.  On our Swiss trip we stopped one day at a pub with sloped parking that initially went down then up into the parking spaces.  Clive in his GT2 couldn't get onto the 'up' part without it taking off the whole front nose!

    So would be a very good addition to a GT2 Smiley


    --

    Click for bigger picture!


    Re: REPORT: Suspension upgrades with Bilstein + GMG

    hey alex

     

    i am planning on buying the pss10. what is the difference between the club sport verses the non club sport. I did not see belstein selling pss10 clubsport on their website. also any luck with the cargraphic lifting kit, will this work , have you looked in to it.

     

    cheers

    Ronnie


    Re: REPORT: Suspension upgrades with Bilstein + GMG

    Still waiting for a quote on the airlift system. I don't think Cargraphic officially release it until Jan/Feb. As for the B16 clubsport differences I guess my CS version is more track orientated. I did list out the part numbers in Canga's Bilstein thread. I only have iPhone access right now so I can't paste the direct link.
    --

    Click for bigger picture!


    Re: REPORT: Suspension upgrades with Bilstein + GMG

    Get this - the AirLift parts costs MORE than the B16's do!

    I am going to PASS


    --

    Click for bigger picture!


    Re: REPORT: Suspension upgrades with Bilstein + GMG

    Chris made some geometry updates to my car today based on my feedback of the settings he originally gave me. Now the car has much better steering weight and feels much more planted. An added bonus is that over bumpy b- roads here in the UK the car feels much less harsh, smoother and more stable at high speeds. Will post geometry settings when Chris emails the final settings over to me.
    --

    Click for bigger picture!


    Re: REPORT: Suspension upgrades with Bilstein + GMG

    Also want to get a quote for the KW equivalent to the CG AirLift. It's meant to be much better and also much cheaper!
    --

    Click for bigger picture!


    Re: REPORT: Suspension upgrades with Bilstein + GMG

    Still waiting for Chris to email me my new settings so in the meantime I thought I would treat you to some Porsche 997 factory geometry setting info from PIWIS!!

    screenshot02 01-Jan-09.jpg



    --

    Click for bigger picture!


    Re: REPORT: Suspension upgrades with Bilstein + GMG

    It shouldn't confuse anyone too long, but there is a small error in units of angle in the above table. The symbol for angular seconds (") has been substituted for the symbol for degrees(°).


    --
    fritz

    Re: REPORT: Suspension upgrades with Bilstein + GMG

    New version below, I couldn't find the degrees symbol first time (copy pasted from your post thanks)

    screenshot03 01-Jan-09.jpg



    --

    Click for bigger picture!


    Re: REPORT: Suspension upgrades with Bilstein + GMG

    I didn't intend to nit-pick. Smiley I thought you might have copied and pasted the whole table (including the incorrect unit) from somewhere else.

    I just mentioned it because I had to do a double-take when I first glanced at it because castor angle was given as 8 seconds instead of 8 degrees. Smiley Smiley



    --
    fritz

    Re: REPORT: Suspension upgrades with Bilstein + GMG

    Alex,

    those alignment specs to do match the specs published in the US GT3 owners' manual. They may be different for the UK/ROW


    --

    track vid

    0-300kph

    chasing a 997GT2




    Re: REPORT: Suspension upgrades with Bilstein + GMG

    Alex_997TT:

    New version below, I couldn't find the degrees symbol first time (copy pasted from your post thanks)

    screenshot03 01-Jan-09.jpg


    Alex,

    Very nice! Thanks. And yes I woud be very interested in your final alignment setting. Curious about the toe settings that Chris decided on.

    For anyone interested in converting of toe setting from angle (degree) to distance (mm), there is a nice calculator here: http://www.ground-control.com/toe-out.htm
    (Notice that the table here is in angle, whereas Alex's earlier post on his car's alignment is in distance.)

    Below is a table with conversion already done for a car with 25.5 inch tire diameter (don't know if it's the same as the Turbo's tire):

     

    Here's a Chart For A Popular Tire Diameter

    Toe-Out Data For One Tire With A Diameter of 25.5 Inches

    THIS IS "PER SIDE", multiply by "2" for TOTAL TOE

    Toe-Out Distance     Toe-Out Angle    
    Fraction        Decimal       Minutes           Degrees      mm
    1/32     0.03125  4.21292         0.070215        0.8
    1/16     0.06250        8.42586         0.140431        1.5
    3/32     0.09375        12.6388         0.210647        2.4
      1/8      0.12500        16.8518        0.280863        3.1
    5/32     0.15625         21.0647        0.351079        3.9
    3/16      0.18750        25.2778         0.421296        4.7
    7/32     0.21875         29.4908       0.491514        5.5
      1/4      0.25000        33.7039        0.561732        6.4



    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein PSS10 (Review) + Cargraphic Exhaust (Heavenly Race Car Noise Smiley Review)


     
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