Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: Is engine placement crutial to car balans - Page1

Feb 4, 2006 4:25:51 PM

arakis: Pilot; Loc: Belgrade,Serbia , Serbia and Montenegro; Posts: 302, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 30, 2004

Is engine placement crutial to car balans

The question is: If engine placement is at all crutial to the balanse of the car or is it soly a weight distribution issue.

I am asking this becouse ferrari says 599gtb will have a perfect weight distribution, just like a mid engined car.

Does that then mean it will handle as a mid engined car. My understanding of Phisycs , centar of masses and Translational motion says it should, but I am by far not an expert.

So can someone help.

What is important in the cars handeling , Egine placement or the Center of mass (weight distribution)

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Feb 4, 2006 5:03:40 PM

bostonmini: Veteran; Loc:; Posts: 924, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 31, 2003; Reply to: arakis

Re: Is engine placement crutial to car balans

arakis, it will be closer to a mid engined car bc really a mid engined car is similar in that the engine is not really in the middle, but it is between the axles, the 599 has this as well, the engine is far back in the nose. It isnt a matter of balance by weight % alone; but rather think of holding barbell over ur head. if it has 5 lb plates hung out 5 ft on each side; the momentum etc means that spinning it will take longer and be harder than just having 10 lbs right over your head;) hope this makes sense.

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Feb 4, 2006 5:43:31 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21155, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: arakis

Re: Is engine placement crutial to car balans

Weight distribution can be the same but polar moment of inertia may not, and engine placement affects both.

For sportcars you want a rearward weight bias in order to have more traction, more balance upon breaking, and less understeer. Something a front engined car will likely not achieve.

As to the Polar moment of inertia, sportcars want the least posible for more agility and quicker direction changes. Mid-engine car being the best in this sense becuase its main "mass" is closer to the middle of the car. Just like bostonmini explained with the dumbell example.

That said, the effect of engine placement is not everything, its only another factor of the whole package. In performance, the engine placement does not dictate everyting. However in feel and sensation the car transmits the driver, its is a bigger factor, thats why to me its more important. Just like RWD vs AWD; they can have similar performance on paper and tract, but the experience is quite diferent.

So no matter how much a front engined car is designed to miminc a mid-engined car's characteristics, its still a front engined car, in handling and especially in feel.

Still, speaks very well of the maker to pay special attention to try to move the engine rearward as posible to try to aproximate the weight distribution to a mid or rear engine platform. Ferrari has already done this with the F612, inspite of being a front engined car, it has somewhat of a rear ward weight bias due to this. Maserati has even doen it with their 4-door salon. The downside is that the cabin is more cramped.

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Feb 4, 2006 10:17:40 PM

SSNISTR: Senior; Loc: Florida; Posts: 611, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 15, 2004; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: Is engine placement crutial to car balans

A front/mid-engined car will have 90% of the performance, if not the same of a mid-engined car. Plus it will be more practical, and have the classic long nose, short deck look.

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Feb 4, 2006 11:19:21 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21155, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: SSNISTR

Re: Is engine placement crutial to car balans

Thats why racecars and focused sportcars are front engined...

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Feb 4, 2006 11:48:12 PM

SSNISTR: Senior; Loc: Florida; Posts: 611, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 15, 2004; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: Is engine placement crutial to car balans

Quote:
Carlos from Spain said:
Thats why racecars and focused sportcars are front engined...

Well, I wasn't refering to cars with their engines in front of the front axle line. Mid-engined isn't the only way to get great handling. Also the average driver would have a hard time with a mid-engined car, let alone a rear-engined car. The new trend of front/mid-engined cars gives us the best of both worlds IMO.

And RULES dictate 99% of engine placement in race cars....

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Feb 4, 2006 11:56:52 PM

fritz: Rennteam VIP; Loc: BaWü , Germany; Posts: 10248, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 23, 2003; Reply to: SSNISTR

Re: Is engine placement crutial to car balans

Quote:
BluCamSS said:
And RULES dictate 99% of engine placement in race cars....

Formula race cars went to the mid-engined layout at a time when the rules were less restrictive than they are now.

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Feb 5, 2006 12:07:17 AM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21155, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: fritz

Re: Is engine placement crutial to car balans

If my memory serves me right, wasn't it Dr. Porsche the first one to move the engine from in front of the driver to behind him? in the Forumula One Audis back in the day?

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Feb 5, 2006 12:14:07 AM

fritz: Rennteam VIP; Loc: BaWü , Germany; Posts: 10248, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 23, 2003; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: Is engine placement crutial to car balans

Quote:
Carlos from Spain said:
If my memory serves me right, wasn't it Dr. Porsche the first one to move the engine from in front of the driver to behind him? in the Forumula One Audis back in the day?

Didn't think you'd be old enough to remember that at all, Carlos!

I'm much too young to, so I can't comment.

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Feb 5, 2006 1:55:34 AM

SSNISTR: Senior; Loc: Florida; Posts: 611, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 15, 2004; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: Is engine placement crutial to car balans

Quote:
Carlos from Spain said:
If my memory serves me right, wasn't it Dr. Porsche the first one to move the engine from in front of the driver to behind him? in the Forumula One Audis back in the day?

I think your refering to the Auto Union type C?

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Feb 5, 2006 2:47:37 AM

arakis: Pilot; Loc: Belgrade,Serbia , Serbia and Montenegro; Posts: 302, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 30, 2004; Reply to: SSNISTR

Re: Is engine placement crutial to car balans

yeah it was porsche, but to get back to the point, I've read somever in my physics book that if u can calculate where the centar of mass is positioned, that the whole body will act as if the hole mass is c1entered in the center of mass, icluding the inertia and all forces accting upon the car, that why I tought 2 cars with the same weight distribution should act the same in the same contitions. But ofcourse there are no 2 cars with the same biase and with the exact same everything else (chassis, aero, tyres engine) so there couldnt be an experiment to prove disprove this thery.

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Feb 5, 2006 2:54:33 AM

arakis: Pilot; Loc: Belgrade,Serbia , Serbia and Montenegro; Posts: 302, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 30, 2004; Reply to: arakis

Re: Is engine placement crutial to car balans

sory for my typos, but i broke my wrist(pinckie), while being drunk and punching a wall. Silly thing to do for a 23 year old. more like a 2 year old.

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Feb 5, 2006 2:54:43 AM

Yargk: Pilot; Loc: SF Bay Area, CA, USA; Posts: 486, Gallery; Registered on: May 18, 2003; Reply to: arakis

Re: Is engine placement crutial to car balans

Quote:
arakis said:
yeah it was porsche, but to get back to the point, I've read somever in my physics book that if u can calculate where the centar of mass is positioned, that the whole body will act as if the hole mass is c1entered in the center of mass, icluding the inertia and all forces accting upon the car, that why I tought 2 cars with the same weight distribution should act the same in the same contitions. But ofcourse there are no 2 cars with the same biase and with the exact same everything else (chassis, aero, tyres engine) so there couldnt be an experiment to prove disprove this thery.

No you can just separate the equations. One for center of mass, the other for rotation about that center of mass. With the same position of the CoM the first equation will be identical, however things like moments of inertia effect the other equation. Think of a mid engine car vs. a front engine car with the engine far back in the chassis and a rear transaxle. They might have the same position of the center of mass (let's pretend), but they won't have the same rotational inertia because the weight is more concentrated in the mid engine car. Guess which one will be more nimble and which more stable.

About punching the wall, hey I know how it is, I'm 22. However, remember no matter how hard you hit the wall, it really always wins.

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Feb 5, 2006 10:57:44 AM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21155, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: SSNISTR

Re: Is engine placement crutial to car balans

Quote:
BluCamSS said:
Quote:
Carlos from Spain said:
If my memory serves me right, wasn't it Dr. Porsche the first one to move the engine from in front of the driver to behind him? in the Forumula One Audis back in the day?

I think your refering to the Auto Union type C?

Yes, thats it, Auto Union Grand Prix car, but the type I do not remember

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Feb 5, 2006 11:12:08 AM

arakis: Pilot; Loc: Belgrade,Serbia , Serbia and Montenegro; Posts: 302, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 30, 2004; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: Is engine placement crutial to car balans

thanx

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Feb 5, 2006 11:34:02 AM

arakis: Pilot; Loc: Belgrade,Serbia , Serbia and Montenegro; Posts: 302, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 30, 2004; Reply to: arakis

Re: Is engine placement crutial to car balans

here is an interesting thing, while trying to find regulations for the upcoming fia gt3 , in there I found this.

"With the aim of quantifying this optimisation, the FIA
reserves the right to ask each competitor to provide
the following information:
a) the characteristics of the tyres
b) the weight and distribution of mass
c) the power curve
d) the drag
e) the lift
f) the lift distribution
g) the gear ratios of the Gearbox and Differential
This information will be used to simulate the lap
times and performances of the cars on all the
circuits in the Championship.
Any competitor who deliberately gives false
information may be given a sanction by the FIA."

the thing they are interested is the weightdistribution. and with it they can simulate performance.

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Feb 5, 2006 11:48:29 AM

Yargk: Pilot; Loc: SF Bay Area, CA, USA; Posts: 486, Gallery; Registered on: May 18, 2003; Reply to: arakis

Re: Is engine placement crutial to car balans

Now when people say weight distribution you get two numbers, weight on the front and weight on the rear wheels (in percent). This is really just a single quantity giving the longitudinal position of the center of mass. When the FIA wants to know the distribution of mass are they referring to this simple quantity or something more complicated that will actually tell you how the weight is distributed (moments of inertia)? I can easily see multiple interpretations.

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