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Re: Ringtime of the F430
Quote:
Rossi said:
Time to start a F-bashing thread.
7.55 min
...according to Sport Auto. Time was taken with optional Corsa tyres (1450 Euro) and CCM-brakes (14k).
That's not bad at all actually.
I seem to remember the 360 doing it around 8min10 so I think so it's an improvement. Ferrari has always been more about style and feel than performance. In RC's words, you get what you pay for. I'm sure that despite the fact that you could probably get a similar time with a 911 (X51, etc.), F430 owners are still happier with their cars.
If you want a car mostly for performance, you get a Porsche, we all know that.
This seems to in accordance with the 996/ 360 conversion factor.
490 Italian HP = 381 german HP.
Rossi, can you tell me more about the P Zero Corsa tyres please? They are really expensive but is grip that much better? Are they dangerous on the wet? Thanks.
Re: Ringtime of the F430
Quote:
vinnie said:
According to track-challenge.com the Porsche 997 911S runs around the ring in 8.05 min which is 10 seconds slower than 430.
8min05 is the time recorded by AMS magazine, so actually, you're right, since it's the same test driver (Mr Von Sauma).
I was basing my assumtions on Porsche's official figure established by Mr Rohrl with a sport suspension 997S (7min59).
I'm assuming that if you add P Zero Corsa tyres and at least 26 hp more (X51), he could take that time down to 7min55.
I guess we're both right.
Still, I rest my case, if it's performance only you're after, an optimised Carrera equals the mighty F430. Not bad for two cylinders less and over 100 hp less.
GT3 and Turbo are gonna pulverize the beautiful diva.
Now if you're after beauty, noise, exclusitivy, passion, the Ferrari still has the edge IMHO.
Dec 15, 2005 6:47:03 PM
- rosso nuvola
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Dec 15, 2005 7:04:15 PM
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Dec 15, 2005 7:18:54 PM
- xander71
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Re: Ringtime of the F430
I think that the matter of the ring times is not just as simple as it seems.
I do the porsche formula club in italy, and 3-4 times a year i'm at the ring with my 993.
in a circuit like the ring i really think that the set up of the car is more important than have horsepower.
my 993 is at the moment really low ( -30mm) and have a hard set up , in circuits like mugello in italy with this set up i gained around 1. - 1.5 sec a lap compared to the one i had before.my ring times is with the old set up around 8.40 with this last one i couldn't get faster than 8.55. that's meens 15 sec and the conditions where almost the same and i also newed the ring better( FAR AWAY TO DRIVE WELL IN THERE....).
we have to think that porsche is doing all the set up at the ring and they have the best ring pilot "walter rohrl"( we met him at the ring this year and he is really a super nice person
) to prepare the cars...
Just to say that maybe the 430 is much better in a normal track where it can use it's aerodinamic venturi effect, than at the ring where there are a lot different grounds..bumps..jumps..and so on.and maybe on normal tracks it is as fast as the porsches or even faster??????
this is the impressions that i have driving in "normal" circuits and then driving in the ring.
so another friend of mine which have a997s had my same impressions with a very track oriented set up.
I do the porsche formula club in italy, and 3-4 times a year i'm at the ring with my 993.
in a circuit like the ring i really think that the set up of the car is more important than have horsepower.
my 993 is at the moment really low ( -30mm) and have a hard set up , in circuits like mugello in italy with this set up i gained around 1. - 1.5 sec a lap compared to the one i had before.my ring times is with the old set up around 8.40 with this last one i couldn't get faster than 8.55. that's meens 15 sec and the conditions where almost the same and i also newed the ring better( FAR AWAY TO DRIVE WELL IN THERE....).
we have to think that porsche is doing all the set up at the ring and they have the best ring pilot "walter rohrl"( we met him at the ring this year and he is really a super nice person
) to prepare the cars...
Just to say that maybe the 430 is much better in a normal track where it can use it's aerodinamic venturi effect, than at the ring where there are a lot different grounds..bumps..jumps..and so on.and maybe on normal tracks it is as fast as the porsches or even faster??????
this is the impressions that i have driving in "normal" circuits and then driving in the ring.
so another friend of mine which have a997s had my same impressions with a very track oriented set up.
Re: Ringtime of the F430
Quote:
xander71 said:
I think that the matter of the ring times is not just as simple as it seems.
I do the porsche formula club in italy, and 3-4 times a year i'm at the ring with my 993.
in a circuit like the ring i really think that the set up of the car is more important than have horsepower.
my 993 is at the moment really low ( -30mm) and have a hard set up , in circuits like mugello in italy with this set up i gained around 1. - 1.5 sec a lap compared to the one i had before.my ring times is with the old set up around 8.40 with this last one i couldn't get faster than 8.55. that's meens 15 sec and the conditions where almost the same and i also newed the ring better( FAR AWAY TO DRIVE WELL IN THERE....).
we have to think that porsche is doing all the set up at the ring and they have the best ring pilot "walter rohrl"( we met him at the ring this year and he is really a super nice person
Just to say that maybe the 430 is much better in a normal track where it can use it's aerodinamic venturi effect, than at the ring where there are a lot different grounds..bumps..jumps..and so on.and maybe on normal tracks it is as fast as the porsches or even faster??????
this is the impressions that i have driving in "normal" circuits and then driving in the ring.
so another friend of mine which have a997s had my same impressions with a very track oriented set up.
i 100% agree
Re: Ringtime of the F430
Quote:
Lazy Cat said:Quote:
xander71 said:
I think that the matter of the ring times is not just as simple as it seems.
I do the porsche formula club in italy, and 3-4 times a year i'm at the ring with my 993.
in a circuit like the ring i really think that the set up of the car is more important than have horsepower.
my 993 is at the moment really low ( -30mm) and have a hard set up , in circuits like mugello in italy with this set up i gained around 1. - 1.5 sec a lap compared to the one i had before.my ring times is with the old set up around 8.40 with this last one i couldn't get faster than 8.55. that's meens 15 sec and the conditions where almost the same and i also newed the ring better( FAR AWAY TO DRIVE WELL IN THERE....).
we have to think that porsche is doing all the set up at the ring and they have the best ring pilot "walter rohrl"( we met him at the ring this year and he is really a super nice person
Just to say that maybe the 430 is much better in a normal track where it can use it's aerodinamic venturi effect, than at the ring where there are a lot different grounds..bumps..jumps..and so on.and maybe on normal tracks it is as fast as the porsches or even faster??????
this is the impressions that i have driving in "normal" circuits and then driving in the ring.
so another friend of mine which have a997s had my same impressions with a very track oriented set up.
i 100% agree
True. The problem is that most roads are much more similar to the Nring, than to Monza, plus a 996TTS with X73 will stay on the F430's rear all the way.
Re: Ringtime of the F430
Quote:
Fanch said:
Rossi, can you tell me more about the P Zero Corsa tyres please? They are really expensive but is grip that much better? Are they dangerous on the wet? Thanks.
Sorry Francois, I can only tell you what's in this particular test (and I just had a quick look so far). It seems as if you can order the Corsa for an extra 1450 Euro, whereas the Rosso (or PS2 or Bridgestone or Good Year runflat) comes as standard with the F430.
According to Sport Auto, although being track orientated, the Corsa performs fairly well in the wet. I can't tell you how big the difference between the Corsa and the Rosso really is, unfortunately Sport Auto didn't try the latter as they did in case of the M6.
Dec 15, 2005 9:16:07 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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Futch
Re: Ringtime of the F430
I find it really dissapointing, I would have guessed a 7:50 (Gallardo times). And with Corsa R-compound tires? I find it surprising.
The 997S with only 355HP did 8:05, but if it had Corsas you can scrtah may 5 seconds off... the F360 Changenge Stradale did 7:47 with Corsas, thats 8 seconds faster!...I remember some old threads about some people thinking the F430 would be similar to the F360CS, and I would argue against that (F360CS is lighter and sportier setup) but I didn't expect 8 seconds difference and with the same Corsas on top of it.
My god, the 997TT is going to cremate it!
So with the standard Runflats that would put it in what? 8:05?
I too believe the F430 would do better in a smooth track, but the Ring times serve a diffrenet purspose, they are the best available window to the car's performance in the real world streets in which we drive these cars. That said, the F430 may not be the best handling and fastest of the group on the streets, but they are not about that completely, they have other virtues. But I expect the Challenge Stradale version to due much better on the track...
The 997S with only 355HP did 8:05, but if it had Corsas you can scrtah may 5 seconds off... the F360 Changenge Stradale did 7:47 with Corsas, thats 8 seconds faster!...I remember some old threads about some people thinking the F430 would be similar to the F360CS, and I would argue against that (F360CS is lighter and sportier setup) but I didn't expect 8 seconds difference and with the same Corsas on top of it.
My god, the 997TT is going to cremate it!
So with the standard Runflats that would put it in what? 8:05?
I too believe the F430 would do better in a smooth track, but the Ring times serve a diffrenet purspose, they are the best available window to the car's performance in the real world streets in which we drive these cars. That said, the F430 may not be the best handling and fastest of the group on the streets, but they are not about that completely, they have other virtues. But I expect the Challenge Stradale version to due much better on the track...
Dec 15, 2005 9:20:32 PM
- HoboPie
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Dec 15, 2005 9:41:34 PM
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Carlos from Spain
Re: Ringtime of the F430
Quote:
Carlos from Spain said:
I find it really dissapointing, I would have guessed a 7:50 (Gallardo times). And with Corsa R-compound tires? I find it surprising.
The 997S with only 355HP did 8:05, but if it had Corsas you can scrtah may 5 seconds off... the F360 Changenge Stradale did 7:47 with Corsas, thats 8 seconds faster!...I remember some old threads about some people thinking the F430 would be similar to the F360CS, and I would argue against that (F360CS is lighter and sportier setup) but I didn't expect 8 seconds difference and with the same Corsas on top of it.
My god, the 997TT is going to cremate it!
So with the standard Runflats that would put it in what? 8:05?
I too believe the F430 would do better in a smooth track, but the Ring times serve a diffrenet purspose, they are the best available window to the car's performance in the real world streets in which we drive these cars. That said, the F430 may not be the best handling and fastest of the group on the streets, but they are not about that completely, they have other virtues. But I expect the Challenge Stradale version to due much better on the track...
I absolutely agree with you Carlos.
I expected something like a 7.55 min, but with the standard Pirelli Rosso tyres, not with the Corsa. That would put the F430 in one league with the Gallardo. We must not forget, that the Gallardo achieved its 7.52 min with Rosso tyres and that a Challenge Stradale, with Corsa but with 65 horses less (and no E-Diff and no CCM and slower F1) was only one second slower (7.56 min). In the last Supertest the BMW M6 gained something like ten seconds by using Corsa instead of normal tyres, so if I transfer that on the F430, its Ringtime would be only a little bit better than that of the F360 Modena (8.09 min), which is more than disappointing.
I can't help myself, but something is terribly wrong here.
Dec 15, 2005 10:01:36 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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Re: Ringtime of the F430
Quote:
Rossi said:
I absolutely agree with you Carlos.
I expected something like a 7.55 min, but with the standard Pirelli Rosso tyres, not with the Corsa. That would put the F430 in one league with the Gallardo. We must not forget, that the Gallardo achieved its 7.52 min with Rosso tyres and that a Challenge Stradale, with Corsa but with 65 horses less (and no E-Diff and no CCM and slower F1) was only one second slower (7.56 min). In the last Supertest the BMW M6 gained something like ten seconds by using Corsa instead of normal tyres, so if I transfer that on the F430, its Ringtime would be only a little bit better than that of the F360 Modena (8.09 min), which is more than disappointing.
I can't help myself, but something is terribly wrong here.
We still need to find out more data about the test such as the track conditions, temperature, etc. It won't make a huge difference but still...
I'm with you, by all my calculations the F430 should be doing a better time. The F360SC did a 7:47 with Corsas, and thats more than what I expected to be the difference. The F430 has less sporty setup, its heavier and more tamed, but it has 490HP and that counts a lot in the ring. So lets see more about the test; the acceleration numbers of the car if it was normal, the weight the car had, the track conditions that day, hockeheim lap times to compare, Saurmas impressions and explanations of the time, etc.
I don't think that the Corsas are that much advantage though over the normal Rossos, maybe 5 seconds, and the Michelin cups maybe 8 seconds. The 10 second diference in the M6 may be due to the fact that I think that it comes with run-flats as standard like the M5, and these are even slower than normal tires like the Rossos. So with the Rossos I would wager the 7:55 time would equate to a 8min flat. Still, far from the 7:50 of a Gallardo... doesn't make sense
could the new Skyhook/PASM suspensions, E-diff, CTS, etc. be making the car much more streetable and versatile but hurting its track abilities?
Dec 15, 2005 10:01:40 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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Re: Ringtime of the F430
Quote:
svtrader1 said:
Sport Auto is a joke. Horse von Saurma is a Porsche puppet. With him behind the wheels of 997tt it would clock a 'Ring time of 7:45 sec. And the Z06 would see 7:57sec. Ring time is nonsense and meaning less.
Its best if you just deal with it, instead of fooling yourself and actching a tantrum
Remember our exchange of post regarding 996TT-X51 and F430 at the ring? and how the F430 was not going to be faster than the F360SC either?
Dec 15, 2005 10:48:35 PM
- svtrader1
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Carlos from Spain
Re: Ringtime of the F430
Quote:
Carlos from Spain said:Quote:
svtrader1 said:
Sport Auto is a joke. Horse von Saurma is a Porsche puppet. With him behind the wheels of 997tt it would clock a 'Ring time of 7:45 sec. And the Z06 would see 7:57sec. Ring time is nonsense and meaning less.
Its best if you just deal with it, instead of fooling yourself and actching a tantrum
Remember our exchange of post regarding 996TT-X51 and F430 at the ring? and how the F430 was not going to be faster than the F360SC either?
Drink all the Sport Auto(Porsche) Kool Aid you want. But, Saurma has no credibility. Remember an 8:15 sec time for a standard corvette, when Corvette engineer Dave Hill did it at about 8:00 min.
That's when I realized this guy was bought and paid for.
Dec 15, 2005 10:59:24 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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Re: Ringtime of the F430
Quote:
svtrader1 said:
Drink all the Sport Auto(Porsche) Kool Aid you want. But, Saurma has no credibility. Remember an 8:15 sec time for a standard corvette, when Corvette engineer Dave Hill did it at about 8:00 min.
That's when I realized this guy was bought and paid for.
Let me get this straight, so you believe the GM's engineer rather than the independant maganzine editor who specialises in these comaprative tests? I think you believe just what you want to believe. If the lap time for the 430 would have been 7:40 you would be saying the opposite...
Rohrl also did 7:59 with the 997S-20mm while Saurma and 8:05. You see, Saurma is not going to extract the abosolute maximum potential the car can give with a factory test driver and factory support and factory conditions. But Saurma is an experienced driver, with experience at the ring, and experince with all the sportcars in the world... and in a combination like no other.
So he serves as the best reference for comparison for the cars performance in production specs like the ones out of the showroom, not in factory testing by factory paid drivers. You can only compare Saurma times to Saurma times.
If you add to this that the ring, a special track like no other, serves as the best reference any controlled enviroment can be for the real world roads, then... Sauma + Ring = best reference for Real World Performance to date.
If you don't like the news, don't kill the messenger, kill the Ferrari engineer
Re: Ringtime of the F430
Quote:
svtrader1 said:Quote:
Carlos from Spain said:Quote:
svtrader1 said:
Sport Auto is a joke. Horse von Saurma is a Porsche puppet. With him behind the wheels of 997tt it would clock a 'Ring time of 7:45 sec. And the Z06 would see 7:57sec. Ring time is nonsense and meaning less.
Its best if you just deal with it, instead of fooling yourself and actching a tantrum
Remember our exchange of post regarding 996TT-X51 and F430 at the ring? and how the F430 was not going to be faster than the F360SC either?
Drink all the Sport Auto(Porsche) Kool Aid you want. But, Saurma has no credibility. Remember an 8:15 sec time for a standard corvette, when Corvette engineer Dave Hill did it at about 8:00 min.
That's when I realized this guy was bought and paid for.
I don't get it : you would better believe a time claimed by a person working for GM (Dave Hill), hence biased towards the Vette, than a reputable reporter (Saurma)?
Dec 15, 2005 11:51:22 PM
- svtrader1
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Carlos from Spain
Re: Ringtime of the F430
Quote:
Carlos from Spain said:Quote:
svtrader1 said:
Drink all the Sport Auto(Porsche) Kool Aid you want. But, Saurma has no credibility. Remember an 8:15 sec time for a standard corvette, when Corvette engineer Dave Hill did it at about 8:00 min.
That's when I realized this guy was bought and paid for.
Let me get this straight, so you believe the GM's engineer rather than the independant maganzine editor who specialises in these comaprative tests? I think you believe just what you want to believe. If the lap time for the 430 would have been 7:40 you would be saying the opposite...
Rohrl also did 7:59 with the 997S-20mm while Saurma and 8:05. You see, Saurma is not going to extract the abosolute maximum potential the car can give with a factory test driver and factory support and factory conditions. But Saurma is an experienced driver, with experience at the ring, and experince with all the sportcars in the world... and in a combination like no other.
So he serves as the best reference for comparison for the cars performance in production specs like the ones out of the showroom, not in factory testing by factory paid drivers. You can only compare Saurma times to Saurma times.
If you add to this that the ring, a special track like no other, serves as the best reference any controlled enviroment can be for the real world roads, then... Sauma + Ring = best reference for Real World Performance to date.
If you don't like the news, don't kill the messenger, kill the Ferrari engineer
Every independent test done by other magazines have the 911S and Corvette on about par with each other in terms of lap time. Then comes Sport Auto (which you know has a Porsche affiliation) does a test of a the Corvette and it's all of sudden a whopping 10 sec. slower than the 911S. Come on.
While I don't necessarily believe the exact times produce by company drivers, I sure as hell don't believe Saurma's does his best with respect to other cars not Porsche.
Like I said, this guy is Porsche stooge. But, since you so good at remembering things, rememeber these preictions:
997tt 7:45-7:47 sec
Z06 7:54-7:57 sec
If I'm close then I'll continue to believe Saurma is full of Sheet.
Dec 16, 2005 12:17:06 AM
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Carlos from Spain
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Dec 16, 2005 12:34:24 AM
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Carlos from Spain
Re: Ringtime of the F430
Quote:
Carlos from Spain said:
If it makes you feel better, Saurma is actually a secret Porsche test driver and the Vette tested was only using 3 cilinders
like I said, just deal with it, the supertest is the "Supertest"
It's no use Carlos, he's made up his mind. He's a die hard Ferrari fan who criticizes Porsche at every possible opportunity (although some criticism is definitely justified). I mean, come on! What does Von Saurma, a respected and OBVIOUSLY biased journalist with a verified Corvette lap time have on Dave Hill, the GM test driver, who is so clearly UNBIASED, that his 8:00 time stands all scrutiny (and I suppose it's been documented and the car has been brought in from a dealer and not directly from the factory)?
Dec 16, 2005 12:58:42 AM
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Re: Ringtime of the F430
Quote:
Carlos from Spain said:
If it makes you feel better, Saurma is actually a secret Porsche test driver and the Vette tested was only using 3 cilinders
like I said, just deal with it, the supertest is the "Supertest"
Deal with what? It's a meaningless test. Can you image if Saurma gets his hand on an Enzo.
Extra! Extra! It's the Enzo SuperDuperTest. Lap time is :drumroll: 7:50 woohoo!
BTW, are those mugs filled with beer or Porscephile Kool Aid?
Re: Ringtime of the F430
Quote:
svtrader1 said:Quote:
Carlos from Spain said:
If it makes you feel better, Saurma is actually a secret Porsche test driver and the Vette tested was only using 3 cilinders
like I said, just deal with it, the supertest is the "Supertest"
Deal with what? It's a meaningless test. Can you image if Saurma gets his hand on an Enzo.
Extra! Extra! It's the Enzo SuperDuperTest. Lap time is :drumroll: 7:50 woohoo!
BTW, are those mugs filled with beer or Porscephile Kool Aid?
Let me quote RC:
Quote:
If there is one guy one can trust, it is Horst von Saurma, the editor-in-chief of SPORT AUTO. He is not only respected among Porschephiles but also among Ferraristi and other sportscar enthusiasts. He isn't arrogant and he loves cars. And it shows. Of course it can't be excluded that he is more talented on a certain type of car than on the other. But he usually also mentions little details in his tests and people get pretty fast a clue about how the car really was. I always hear absolutely fabulous performance times for the Corvette, not only straight line but also handling-wise. The problem with these numbers: I never saw a "confirmed" track time on the Nordschleife, just bla bla here and bla bla there. But considering the performance of the C6, I think that the Z version is pretty much at par with the F430 but definetely not better.
Do I have to add anything to that?
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