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Dec 6, 2005 4:39:20 PM
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Futch
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Carlos from Spain
Re: The F430 Challenge
Quote:
Carlos from Spain said:
I find interesting that they throw away the electronic e-diff and substitute it by a true mechanical LSD
You find it interesting or cheeky?
It makes sense, e-diff or skyhook, same thing, is like PASM, it's a compromise so that it's not too uncomfortable on the open roads or cities.
For a sporty setting, nothing like proper suspension and an LSD.
I won't be surprised at all if the Challenge Stradale and the GT3 don't get e-diff/ PASM.
Re: The F430 Challenge
Quote:
Fanch said:Quote:
Carlos from Spain said:
I find interesting that they throw away the electronic e-diff and substitute it by a true mechanical LSD
You find it interesting or cheeky?
It makes sense, e-diff or skyhook, same thing, is like PASM, it's a compromise so that it's not too uncomfortable on the open roads or cities.
For a sporty setting, nothing like proper suspension and an LSD.
I won't be surprised at all if the Challenge Stradale and the GT3 don't get e-diff/ PASM.
I think with a track car it's important for the car to display very predictable behavior. With a self-adjusting system like e-diff, PSM or PASM, the computers are always making micro adjustments in realtime, so you need to tailor your driving inputs to complement them. With a track car, I opt for less electronic adjustments and let the driver be responsible for making them. I'm not saying that this is always the fastest way around the track, but it's certainly the most satisfying. I like the fact that the F430 Challenge leaves more control and responibility up to the driver, since all the cars are identical, there's no need to use more electronics - drivers will determine the winner.
In F1, the e-diff probably privides some speed advantage and they cant afford to leave it off.
Dec 6, 2005 5:27:47 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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Reply to:
Futch
Re: The F430 Challenge
Quote:
Fanch said:
You find it interesting or cheeky?
It makes sense, e-diff or skyhook, same thing, is like PASM, it's a compromise so that it's not too uncomfortable on the open roads or cities.
For a sporty setting, nothing like proper suspension and an LSD.
I won't be surprised at all if the Challenge Stradale and the GT3 don't get e-diff/ PASM.
cheeky
no seriously, I understand they threw away the skyhook or electronic dampning shocks ala PASM, but the E-DIFF is a differenet aspect of the whole manettino thingy.
The E-DIFF is a rear electronic diferential that can vary torque distribution to the rear wheels electronically. Its control is coupled with the skyhook shocks, the CST electronic stability, secuential shifting patterns, EDB, etc all under the control of the manettino nob for diffrent combinations of the whole setup.
Whats interesting is that for the Challenge race car, the max perfromance version, they throw it out and substitute it with a mechanical LSD, like the 997S-20mm has or the GT3.
That would mean that, performance wise, the E-DIFF may provide a handy adjustability but is still inferior to the mechanial LSD just like the PASM/Skyhoock provides dampening adjustability but is inferior to the tradicional springs and shocks in performance.
So they change:
Skyhook eelectronic dampners -> traditional spring/shocks
E-DIFF -> mechanical LSD
EBD (Elect Braking Diff) -> mechanical
CST electronic stability control -> simple ASR traction control
ABS -> remains always on.
... hence no need for mantinno anymore, since the functions or gadgets that it controled have been thrown out in the Challenge version, for more performance oriented ones. But I was surprised to see the E-diff being one of them, since it was advertised as a performance improvement.
Dec 6, 2005 6:30:42 PM
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Futch
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Reply to:
Carlos from Spain
Re: The F430 Challenge
My bad, I thought e-diff and skyhook were the same thing. I was wrong.
Having said that, I think the 360 Challenge stradale runs on skyhook, like the 360 and 430. I think that's what the Race button is about, quickens the transmission but also firms up the suspension, so it works on track fine.
We'll see with the F430 challenge Stradale then.
Still, I really can't see the GT3 getting a PASM!
Thanks for the clarification.
Having said that, I think the 360 Challenge stradale runs on skyhook, like the 360 and 430. I think that's what the Race button is about, quickens the transmission but also firms up the suspension, so it works on track fine.
We'll see with the F430 challenge Stradale then.
Still, I really can't see the GT3 getting a PASM!
Thanks for the clarification.
Dec 7, 2005 11:44:44 PM
- Grant
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Reply to:
Carlos from Spain
Re: The F430 Challenge
Quote:
Carlos from Spain said:That would mean that, performance wise, the E-DIFF may provide a handy adjustability but is still inferior to the mechanial LSD just like the PASM/Skyhoock provides dampening adjustability but is inferior to the tradicional springs and shocks in performance.
Carlos - you know I hate to disagree with you (and rarely need to)
, but I don't think we can infer that performance is better without e-diff. Since this is a single-maker series, they don't need to make the cars perform at their highest level to compete, since all the cars are identical. You may be right, but I also think it's possible that they are going without E-diff either because of reliability or because they want to make the results more driver-dependent.
It's like when F1 gets rid of active suspension, traction control, or goes from a V10 to V8. You can't assume it's for performance (usually the opposite). Ferrari controls the whole Challenge series, so changes are not necessarily for better laptimes.
If E-diff were not faster, I don't think F1 cars would have it (there they compete against teams from different makers). I still think I'd like my track car to dispense with all the electronic tricks though - this Challenge car would be fun to drive! Too bad they still have the F1 tranny...
Dec 8, 2005 12:56:36 AM
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Carlos from Spain
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Re: The F430 Challenge
Good points Grant, true, we cannot deduct that the reason is solely performance wise, could be reliability or regulations or any other 
Would be interesting to see if the GT-class cars get an electronic differential or the substitute it for a mechanical LSD.
But we cannot compare F1 tech to these normal cars either, its not the same even if they share the name.
Look at the secuential F1 tranny in a F1 car, absolutely nothing in common with the so called F1 tranny found in the street Ferraris. Same goes for the brakes, aerodinamics, etc. and specially electronically controled gadgets like the F1 car's E-diff. Look at the $30k steering wheel on the Ferrari F1 and then the equivalent street car Ferrari steering wheel with a "F1 manettino". So because a similar part works in F1 doesn't mean the streetcar version works the same way even though they usually give it the same name for marketing reasons. The E-diff could work in the complex F1 cars but a street version of it may not have the same objective.
In F1 cars they can make things work performance wise at the expense of outragoeus R&D investmenting, just like the "true" Active Suspensions of the Lotus F1's back in the day. The technology has been around a long time but I don't think we will see a street car with a similar system, intead we get 20 years later the Skyhook/PASM passed along by the makers as Active Suspensions when they are just electronic dampning shocks. Its like comparing a drum brake to carbon discs.
Would be interesting to see if the GT-class cars get an electronic differential or the substitute it for a mechanical LSD.But we cannot compare F1 tech to these normal cars either, its not the same even if they share the name.
Look at the secuential F1 tranny in a F1 car, absolutely nothing in common with the so called F1 tranny found in the street Ferraris. Same goes for the brakes, aerodinamics, etc. and specially electronically controled gadgets like the F1 car's E-diff. Look at the $30k steering wheel on the Ferrari F1 and then the equivalent street car Ferrari steering wheel with a "F1 manettino". So because a similar part works in F1 doesn't mean the streetcar version works the same way even though they usually give it the same name for marketing reasons. The E-diff could work in the complex F1 cars but a street version of it may not have the same objective.
In F1 cars they can make things work performance wise at the expense of outragoeus R&D investmenting, just like the "true" Active Suspensions of the Lotus F1's back in the day. The technology has been around a long time but I don't think we will see a street car with a similar system, intead we get 20 years later the Skyhook/PASM passed along by the makers as Active Suspensions when they are just electronic dampning shocks. Its like comparing a drum brake to carbon discs.
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Dec 10, 2005 1:23:40 PM
- LowPolarMoment
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Carlos from Spain
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