Oct 31, 2005 4:05:03 PM
- TT Surgeon
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Oct 31, 2005 4:20:48 PM
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RC
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Re: 997S X51 'Ring Times
Quote:
C4S Surgeon said:
Anybody hear of any PAG 'Ring times with the X51, is it faster than the GT3996?
I'm not sure. The question is WHICH 996 GT3? MkI or MkII?
As far as I remember, Walter Röhrl did 7:57 in a GT3 MkI.
The 997 Carrera S with 20 mm chassis did the Norschleife in 7:59, so it is very possible that the 997 CS X51 with 20 mm chassis does 7:57 or maybe even 7:56 (which would be the 996 Turbo time). I doubt however that the 997 Carrera S X51 is able to outrun the GT3 MkII on the track. Straight-line performance is already more than 0.5 seconds better from 0-125 mph. And of course the GT3 MkII is a little bit lighter than the 997 CS X51.
A talented amateur driver will surely be faster in a 997 CS X51 than in a GT3 MkII but a professional driver would very likely be faster in a GT3 MkII. Such comparisons are pretty difficult, it always depends on the track, driver, tires, tire pressure, suspension setups, etc. All I can say is that the 997 Carrera S 20 mm chassis X51 is the hell of a sports car with a very impressive track performance. Considering that it has 381 HP "only", the performance is at par or even better than on some of the world's best sportscars from Aston Martin, Ferrari (360 Modena, 575 Maranello, etc.) and others.
And a last comment since I own a 997 Carrera S with 20 mm chassis but no X51: for an amateur driver, no matter how talented or experienced, this car is always faster than a GT3. With PSM and sport chrono, this car is almost fool proof. The GT3 is less forgiving, especially since it doesn't have PSM. Also don't forget that the 997 is the new 911 generation which has been improved a lot regarding handling, steering and road stability. A professional will be always faster in a GT3, people like us (or less experienced drivers) should prefer the 997 CS. A good car doesn't always make a good driver.
Oct 31, 2005 4:43:51 PM
- TT Surgeon
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Re: 997S X51 'Ring Times
RC, well spoken words of wisdom. I agree 100%. I wouldn't be surprised to see it run in the low 50's/ high 40's. Like you said, the 997S (w/ox51) is just about as fast, and a hell of a lot easier as a daily driver than the GT3. If an occasional track toy is what you're after, then a GT3 is for you, if it's gonna be track only, just get an cup car and be done. But, if you live in the real world, drive the [censored] out of it daily, occasionally go to the track, actually use the backseats for your kleine kinder, then the only choice is a 997S/C4S.
BTW, I just cut a deal for a 997 C4S, can't wait!
BTW, I just cut a deal for a 997 C4S, can't wait!
Oct 31, 2005 5:37:16 PM
- easy_rider911
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Re: 997S X51 'Ring Times
RC, is it true that when Walter Rohrl went round the 'Ring in 7.59 in a 997S with -20mm sports suspension, he was asked if that was the fastest he could do, and he answered that he was not trying to set a time and that he could possibly go round even faster? If so, why hasn't he tried it? Or is this all rumour and idle speculation?
Oct 31, 2005 8:51:21 PM
- Hurst
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Re: 997S X51 'Ring Times
I kinda have to disagree. Although one could be faster in a 997s due to their lack of professional skill in handling a GT3, you can get so much more performance laden enjoyment from a GT3. Not to take anything away from the 997s, but the stiffer suspension of the GT3 as well as the dry sump motor makes it much more accessible in terms of performance driving.
Even if I went slower in a GT3, I'd take it over a 997s as a weekender car (not as a GT or a daily driver)
Even if I went slower in a GT3, I'd take it over a 997s as a weekender car (not as a GT or a daily driver)
Oct 31, 2005 8:59:25 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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Re: 997S X51 'Ring Times
Quote:
Hurst said:
I kinda have to disagree. Although one could be faster in a 997s due to their lack of professional skill in handling a GT3, you can get so much more performance laden enjoyment from a GT3. Not to take anything away from the 997s, but the stiffer suspension of the GT3 as well as the dry sump motor makes it much more accessible in terms of performance driving.
Even if I went slower in a GT3, I'd take it over a 997s as a weekender car (not as a GT or a daily driver)
You should talk to some pretty "frustrated" and surprised GT3 drivers who had a 997 CS 20 mm chassis "encounter". If you're not a professional driver like Walter Röhrl for example, a driver with the same skills like you will always outrun you in a 997 CS 20 mm chassis.
Maybe you should watch Sergio (Sergini, one of our users) in his video on the Nordschleife, he can also tell you what a 997 CS can do on the track.
The upcoming 997 GT3 will be a different beast, especially if the rumors are true that it comes with a newly developped/adapted PSM system.A too stiff suspension may be fun because it feels sporty but on the Nordschleife and on other tracks, it is a huge disadvantage. Stiff doesn't mean sporty, one reason why the PASM equipped 997 Carrera S does better Ring times with the PASM sport setting (stiffer!) turned OFF.
Regarding the Walter Röhrl comment regarding the 997 CS: I don't know if he ever made such a comment, I just saw the numbers black on white. I can also assure you that a lot of track drivers got a lot of respect towards the 997 CS lately. There still aren't too many 997 CS out there to have a valid comparison, just wait another year or so and you'll understand what I mean.
Re: 997S X51 'Ring Times
Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
RC, if you keep providing that sort of information you may perusade me to stop waiting for the 997 GT3 and get a 997 CS.
Its torture!
To make it clear: the 997 GT3 will be the new generation GT3, clearly superior compared to the "old" 996 GT3 MkII. If the power figure and preliminary specs are right and the PSM rumor is true, it will be the hell of a track car.
I'm still not sure what to do...going for the 997 Turbo or the GT3. I have both options now, unfortunately the GT3 option will soon vanish, I have to make a decision. My heart and brain say Turbo but something inside me says GT3. Difficult decision.
Re: 997S X51 'Ring Times
Since the GT3 shell is from the C4, just add the back seats for occaisional kid hauling. The Turbo will be nice luxury but the GT3 will have far more sports car like handling. Besides, the GT3's rear end design with the dual exhausts center mounted will look the best of any 997 model.
Nov 1, 2005 3:07:14 AM
- Silver Bullet
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Re: 997S X51 'Ring Times
Quote:
RC said:Stiff doesn't mean sporty, one reason why the PASM equipped 997 Carrera S does better Ring times with the PASM sport setting (stiffer!) turned OFF.
RC - where did you get the info that the PASM equipped car is faster around the 'ring in normal suspension mode than sport mode? I was unaware of that . . .
Nov 1, 2005 5:21:18 AM
- doc2s
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Re: 997S X51 'Ring Times
an interesting comparison between 9997S and 03 GT3 can be found at http://www.track-challenge.com/main_e.asp
the 997S was slower on two tracks Nuerburgring 8:05 min vs. 7:54 min and Hockenheim 1:14.3 min vs. 1:13.2 min. it is interesting to note that the 997S had better slalom, lateral acceleration numbers and braking (32.3 m vs. 34 m from 100km/h-0 hot brakes), . the GT3 had better acceleration times. acceleration from 0-200km/h 16 s (997S) 14.8 s (GT3) a 1.2 s difference. for 0 - 200-0 Km/h times are 20,7 s (997S) 19,9 s (GT3) shrinking the diference to 0.8s
due to better braking of 997S.
based on this data a 997S w/X51 would be as fast or slightly faster thank the GT3. the GT3 has about 90 lbs weight advantage.
the summary of data is below
Carrera S (997) 911 GT3 (2003)
Testing Date 5/2005 6/2003
Power 355 PS (261 KW) @ 6600/min 381 PS (280 KW) @ 7400/min
Torque 400 Nm @ 4600/min 385 Nm @ 5000/min
Weight 1461 Kg 1420 Kg
Weight / BhP 4,1 Kg / PS 3,7 Kg/ PS
0 - 100 Km/h 4,8 s 4,6 s
0 - 200 Km/h 16 s 14,8 s
0 - 200-0 Km/h 20,7 s 19,9 s
Top Speed
293 Km/h 306 Km/h
100 - 0 Km/h hot , 11,4 m/s
Transverse Acceleration 1,35 g 1,25 g
Slalom Course 36 / 110m 136 / 153 Km/h 130 / 149 Km/h
Round Time Nuerburgring 8.05 min 7.54 min
Round Time Hockenheim 1.14,3 min 1.13,2 min
the 997S was slower on two tracks Nuerburgring 8:05 min vs. 7:54 min and Hockenheim 1:14.3 min vs. 1:13.2 min. it is interesting to note that the 997S had better slalom, lateral acceleration numbers and braking (32.3 m vs. 34 m from 100km/h-0 hot brakes), . the GT3 had better acceleration times. acceleration from 0-200km/h 16 s (997S) 14.8 s (GT3) a 1.2 s difference. for 0 - 200-0 Km/h times are 20,7 s (997S) 19,9 s (GT3) shrinking the diference to 0.8s
due to better braking of 997S.
based on this data a 997S w/X51 would be as fast or slightly faster thank the GT3. the GT3 has about 90 lbs weight advantage.
the summary of data is below
Carrera S (997) 911 GT3 (2003)
Testing Date 5/2005 6/2003
Power 355 PS (261 KW) @ 6600/min 381 PS (280 KW) @ 7400/min
Torque 400 Nm @ 4600/min 385 Nm @ 5000/min
Weight 1461 Kg 1420 Kg
Weight / BhP 4,1 Kg / PS 3,7 Kg/ PS
0 - 100 Km/h 4,8 s 4,6 s
0 - 200 Km/h 16 s 14,8 s
0 - 200-0 Km/h 20,7 s 19,9 s
Top Speed
293 Km/h 306 Km/h
100 - 0 Km/h hot , 11,4 m/s
Transverse Acceleration 1,35 g 1,25 g
Slalom Course 36 / 110m 136 / 153 Km/h 130 / 149 Km/h
Round Time Nuerburgring 8.05 min 7.54 min
Round Time Hockenheim 1.14,3 min 1.13,2 min
Nov 1, 2005 8:10:47 AM
- Avantgarde
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Re: 997S X51 'Ring Times
Thanks doc2s, so we could expect better showing of results from the 997 w/X51 to be rather similar or perhaps better than the 996 GT3 MK2. I am certainly looking forward to the real numbers on the power kit.
As it goes, the 997 GT3 will be one helluva of a track monster
I am certainly looking forward to the real numbers on the power kit. As it goes, the 997 GT3 will be one helluva of a track monster
Nov 1, 2005 9:20:51 AM
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Carlos from Spain
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Re: 997S X51 'Ring Times
Quote:
Avantgarde said:... the 997 w/X51 to be rather similar or perhaps better than the 996 GT3 MK2
In the real world the 997S-20mm/X51 will be even better than the GT3K-MkII, the reason being is that most drivers would be able to extract more potential from the 997S-20mm/X51 and with more safety than the GT3-MkII, making more effective and faster. This effect is already true in the track, but in the real world the difference is accentuated further.
Can't wait to see the 997GT3, if the imporvement from the 996 carrera versions to the 997 carerras is of any clue, we are in for a surprise!
Nov 1, 2005 10:25:04 AM
- Porsche-Jeck
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Re: 997S X51 'Ring Times
Quote:
Silver Bullet said:Quote:
RC said:Stiff doesn't mean sporty, one reason why the PASM equipped 997 Carrera S does better Ring times with the PASM sport setting (stiffer!) turned OFF.
RC - where did you get the info that the PASM equipped car is faster around the 'ring in normal suspension mode than sport mode? I was unaware of that . . .
I've read the same in some car magazines, but cannot recall the magazine's name or issue date - I am sure RC has the correct data in his "archive". I am absolutely convinced that the statement is correct, because the Nordschleife at old Nürburgring ist NOT an ultra-smooth race track like the modern Formula 1 Grand Prix tracks. It is more like a "real world road" with lots of bumps, not consistent tarmac quality etc. Therefore Nordschleife is so valuable in assessing the abilities of sports cars (not: pure race cars) because it simulates rather realistic driving conditions in the wild instead of the more "synthetic" conditions of a FIA-racetrack. It is obvious that an ultra-stiff race set up would not provide any advantages on a real world road, as you will experience lack of traction when driving over bumps etc. due the stiffness of the suspension. I think that's basically the reason why a car in normal PASM mode can do a better laptime at the Nordschleife than a car in PASM Sport mode. I am sure it will be the other way round, if you would track the modern Grand Prix track at Nürburgring or any other modern race track.
Nov 1, 2005 11:21:57 AM
- Avantgarde
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Re: 997S X51 'Ring Times
Quote:
Carlos from Spain said:
In the real world the 997S-20mm/X51 will be even better than the GT3K-MkII, the reason being is that most drivers would be able to extract more potential from the 997S-20mm/X51 and with more safety than the GT3-MkII, making more effective and faster.
I am just the average joe in the real world
, I would be very satisfied with its apparent prowess and it should work great for me wihtout being too much of a handfull.
Cheers
Re: 997S X51 'Ring Times
Quote:
RC said:
Straight-line performance is already more than 0.5 seconds better from 0-125 mph. And of course the GT3 MkII is a little bit lighter than the 997 CS X51.
RC, which is better i straight li8ne performance?>>
GT3 MKII ir 997S with X51 ???
the 0.5 faster goes to 997S with X51 ??
Nov 1, 2005 2:05:44 PM
- Trundle_GT3
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RC
Re: 997S X51 'Ring Times
Quote:
RC said:
A too stiff suspension may be fun because it feels sporty but on the Nordschleife and on other tracks, it is a huge disadvantage. Stiff doesn't mean sporty, one reason why the PASM equipped 997 Carrera S does better Ring times with the PASM sport setting (stiffer!) turned OFF.
RC is spot on!
With PASM the key word is Active...In the normal setting, depending upon how the computer senses your driving style..the suspension will switch into a sport mode when needed.
PASM is not just Normal (soft) or Sport (hard) but continuously variable between Normal & Sport Mapping depending upon driving conditions.
From the Prod Info Guide:
How PASM works:
PASM selects the required damper hardness for each individual wheel from a
precisely coordinated map in both the Normal and the Sport program. The
possible damper settings range from comfortable to decidedly sporty.
Both programs, which overlap slightly in some areas, are additionally super-
imposed with five special software modules to provide the optimum damper
settings for everydriving condition.
The system automatically selects the appropriate damper hardness based on
the PASM programme selected and the driving condition identified.
The Normal program offers comfortable settings with comparatively low damper forces. Special control algorithms in the PASM software modules enable the chassis to offer greater active driving safety in extreme driving situations, even with the Normal programme. To increase driving safety at higher speeds, the dampers are automatically switched to a harder damper setting as speed increases. The dampers switch to a hard characteristic when Sport mode is activated. This offers superior agility and excellent steering precisionon uneven surfaces. If the system detects an uneven driving
surfacein Sport mode, it switches to a softer characteristic in milliseconds to
improve contact with the road surface. PASM selects the optimum damper
setting for this softer characteristic from the Sport map. Since extremely hard damping is not always the ideal solution in every driving condition (softer damping may prevent bouncing and shifting of the vehicle depending on the driving surface), the intentional overlap between the Normal and Sport maps allows a noticeably soft setting to be selected even in the Sport map if necessary. The customer gets an active sports chassis which automatically responds to the actual road surface and switches from a hard, sporty damping setting to a comfortable range as necessary. PASM switches back to the original characteristic as soon as the driving situation allows.
Re: 997S X51 'Ring Times
What do you mean by a "talented amateur driver" though? To me a professional driver is a driver that is paid to drive someone elses car. There are a lot of fantastic race car drivers that will never be PAID to drive, and are therefore not Professional drivers... There are a lot of Amateur drivers that race in Amateur race series (pca, HSR, SVRA, scca etc...) that are great drivers, but are only amateur drivers. I would hazard a guess that they could get more out of a GT3 than a 997.
I agree a GT3 is something with limits beyond what a rank amateur with little to no performance driving experience could drive to, but saying that only a professional driver could wring the most out of the car isn't right.
I agree a GT3 is something with limits beyond what a rank amateur with little to no performance driving experience could drive to, but saying that only a professional driver could wring the most out of the car isn't right.
Quote:
RC said:Quote:
C4S Surgeon said:
Anybody hear of any PAG 'Ring times with the X51, is it faster than the GT3996?
I'm not sure. The question is WHICH 996 GT3? MkI or MkII?
As far as I remember, Walter Röhrl did 7:57 in a GT3 MkI.
The 997 Carrera S with 20 mm chassis did the Norschleife in 7:59, so it is very possible that the 997 CS X51 with 20 mm chassis does 7:57 or maybe even 7:56 (which would be the 996 Turbo time). I doubt however that the 997 Carrera S X51 is able to outrun the GT3 MkII on the track. Straight-line performance is already more than 0.5 seconds better from 0-125 mph. And of course the GT3 MkII is a little bit lighter than the 997 CS X51.
A talented amateur driver will surely be faster in a 997 CS X51 than in a GT3 MkII but a professional driver would very likely be faster in a GT3 MkII. Such comparisons are pretty difficult, it always depends on the track, driver, tires, tire pressure, suspension setups, etc. All I can say is that the 997 Carrera S 20 mm chassis X51 is the hell of a sports car with a very impressive track performance. Considering that it has 381 HP "only", the performance is at par or even better than on some of the world's best sportscars from Aston Martin, Ferrari (360 Modena, 575 Maranello, etc.) and others.
And a last comment since I own a 997 Carrera S with 20 mm chassis but no X51: for an amateur driver, no matter how talented or experienced, this car is always faster than a GT3. With PSM and sport chrono, this car is almost fool proof. The GT3 is less forgiving, especially since it doesn't have PSM. Also don't forget that the 997 is the new 911 generation which has been improved a lot regarding handling, steering and road stability. A professional will be always faster in a GT3, people like us (or less experienced drivers) should prefer the 997 CS. A good car doesn't always make a good driver.
Re: 997S X51 'Ring Times
Quote:
Mithras said:
What do you mean by a "talented amateur driver" though? To me a professional driver is a driver that is paid to drive someone elses car. There are a lot of fantastic race car drivers that will never be PAID to drive, and are therefore not Professional drivers... There are a lot of Amateur drivers that race in Amateur race series (pca, HSR, SVRA, scca etc...) that are great drivers, but are only amateur drivers. I would hazard a guess that they could get more out of a GT3 than a 997.
I agree a GT3 is something with limits beyond what a rank amateur with little to no performance driving experience could drive to, but saying that only a professional driver could wring the most out of the car isn't right.Quote:
RC said:Quote:
C4S Surgeon said:
Anybody hear of any PAG 'Ring times with the X51, is it faster than the GT3996?
I'm not sure. The question is WHICH 996 GT3? MkI or MkII?
As far as I remember, Walter Röhrl did 7:57 in a GT3 MkI.
The 997 Carrera S with 20 mm chassis did the Norschleife in 7:59, so it is very possible that the 997 CS X51 with 20 mm chassis does 7:57 or maybe even 7:56 (which would be the 996 Turbo time). I doubt however that the 997 Carrera S X51 is able to outrun the GT3 MkII on the track. Straight-line performance is already more than 0.5 seconds better from 0-125 mph. And of course the GT3 MkII is a little bit lighter than the 997 CS X51.
A talented amateur driver will surely be faster in a 997 CS X51 than in a GT3 MkII but a professional driver would very likely be faster in a GT3 MkII. Such comparisons are pretty difficult, it always depends on the track, driver, tires, tire pressure, suspension setups, etc. All I can say is that the 997 Carrera S 20 mm chassis X51 is the hell of a sports car with a very impressive track performance. Considering that it has 381 HP "only", the performance is at par or even better than on some of the world's best sportscars from Aston Martin, Ferrari (360 Modena, 575 Maranello, etc.) and others.
And a last comment since I own a 997 Carrera S with 20 mm chassis but no X51: for an amateur driver, no matter how talented or experienced, this car is always faster than a GT3. With PSM and sport chrono, this car is almost fool proof. The GT3 is less forgiving, especially since it doesn't have PSM. Also don't forget that the 997 is the new 911 generation which has been improved a lot regarding handling, steering and road stability. A professional will be always faster in a GT3, people like us (or less experienced drivers) should prefer the 997 CS. A good car doesn't always make a good driver.
i think he means an amateur driver as one who tracks their car on the weekend or uses their track car as a daily driver. I would say that these people are the "amateurs" of which he speaks of
Nov 1, 2005 4:36:20 PM
- TT Surgeon
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Re: 997S X51 'Ring Times
Interesting debate, the point in my eyes is the 997 S is darn near as fast and a lot more livable as a daily driver than the 996GT3. I'm sure PAG has 'ring data on the x51 997s'4s, for some reason they're keeping quite. I'm sure RC knows what I'm talking about.
BTW you can't legally retrofit backseats into a GT3 in the US, it's imported as a 2 seater, major liability headaches.
BTW you can't legally retrofit backseats into a GT3 in the US, it's imported as a 2 seater, major liability headaches.
Nov 1, 2005 7:17:09 PM
- frayed
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Re: 997S X51 'Ring Times
Quote:
easy_rider911 said:
RC, is it true that when Walter Rohrl went round the 'Ring in 7.59 in a 997S with -20mm sports suspension, he was asked if that was the fastest he could do, and he answered that he was not trying to set a time and that he could possibly go round even faster?
That statement was reported in Excellence, in its evaluation of the 997S. I'll dig around tonight to see if I can find it.
Nov 1, 2005 7:27:36 PM
- Silver Bullet
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Re: 997S X51 'Ring Times
Quote:
Trundle997S said:
RC is spot on!
With PASM the key word is Active...In the normal setting, depending upon how the computer senses your driving style..the suspension will switch into a sport mode when needed.
PASM is not just Normal (soft) or Sport (hard) but continuously variable between Normal & Sport Mapping depending upon driving conditions.
Wouldn't you expect PASM to use Sport settings given the way Walter Rohl would be driving around the 'ring then? Ie - even though the Sport mode would not be selected by the driver, given the speeds and G forces pulled etc., wouldn't the car automatically switch into functional Sport mode?
Nov 2, 2005 8:56:35 PM
- easy_rider911
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Re: 997S X51 'Ring Times
OK, here's the extract I was referring to. It's page 3 out of the 9 page article in Excellence Magazine October 2004.
Paragraph 1 on page: "The kicker is that Rohrl says he wasn't out to set an official record in the 997S - so he feels that there's probably another 2-3 seconds in the car as it sits".
I've attached the extract from the article below...
Paragraph 1 on page: "The kicker is that Rohrl says he wasn't out to set an official record in the 997S - so he feels that there's probably another 2-3 seconds in the car as it sits".
I've attached the extract from the article below...
Nov 2, 2005 8:58:18 PM
- easy_rider911
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Re: 997S X51 'Ring Times
Quote:
RC said:
I'm still not sure what to do...going for the 997 Turbo or the GT3. I have both options now, unfortunately the GT3 option will soon vanish, I have to make a decision. My heart and brain say Turbo but something inside me says GT3. Difficult decision.
TUR-BO, TUR-BO, TUR-BO, TUR-BO. . . .
Re: 997S X51 'Ring Times
Quote:
Al Pettee said:Quote:
RC said:
I'm still not sure what to do...going for the 997 Turbo or the GT3. I have both options now, unfortunately the GT3 option will soon vanish, I have to make a decision. My heart and brain say Turbo but something inside me says GT3. Difficult decision.
TUR-BO, TUR-BO, TUR-BO, TUR-BO. . . .
Now let me guess why???...
Re: 997S X51 'Ring Times
Quote:
RC said:Quote:
Al Pettee said:Quote:
RC said:
I'm still not sure what to do...going for the 997 Turbo or the GT3. I have both options now, unfortunately the GT3 option will soon vanish, I have to make a decision. My heart and brain say Turbo but something inside me says GT3. Difficult decision.
TUR-BO, TUR-BO, TUR-BO, TUR-BO. . . .
Now let me guess why???...
I'll put in a vote for the GT3. RC - you've never had one, AFAIK, so I think MK3 has your name on it!
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